Choice of Rebels Part 1 WIP thread

One minor thing. In ch. 4, if you accuse Breden of being a Kryptast, and drove her away…de Firiac acts like you are still in a relationship with her.

I have no problem with de Firiac not necessarily wanting to be in a relationship, but if they believe in the “one soulmate” thing, that might be a better angle to do a rejection of…even if the person fled, that wouldn’t change the nature of their partnership.

Also, minor editing suggestion. In this sentence:
“Let her be.” You cut off the rising chorus of protest with a sharp, “For now. We’ll have more questions for her later. For now, we’ve lives to save in the band, if we still can.”

You use “For now” twice. There is nothing grammatically wrong with it, but you might switch one out for a synonym of some kind.

Done a lot more work on bug-fixing and conforming the draft to CoG standards on things like italics and using words rather than numerals for numbers. As part of it, I’m combing the last couple weeks’ posts for bug reports etc.

Absolutely. You should be able to be a heretic of various kinds.

No, it doesn’t – it says his ambushes fail to stop another mule train. That’s not the same as avoiding all contact:

“Hector does try to ambush you again, more than once. But this time, thanks to your precautions, his attacks fail to cut off your food supply or stop even a single mule train. Over several small clashes, your followers manage to injure at least two noble veneurs – at the cost of another ${cas} outlaws dying.”

As for the 3 dying in winter, just to check… they didn’t die hunting bear, did they? That can kill 3 of your gang.

@Lys, in the final version you’ll no longer be able to become a folk hero by returning yeomen the grain you stole from them, alas.

I still think that even an enthusiastic or skeptical MC will want to hear more before letting the whole band know. It’s a big shift in mindset, all on the basis of one conversation with a sketchy stranger.

I intend Breden to be counted among your followers – I’ve tried to tweak the math to make that clearer.

Despite seeing the rebellion as “a battle for hearts and minds more than territory”? It depends on whose hearts and minds, I suppose, but low anarchy will win a lot of them.

I don’t think there will be – it would detract from the mood of that last passage. You’ll leave it in a cache which may be re-accessible in later games.

Oy. Fixed.

It’s consistent for you to have perceived your mother treating her as an aunt while Joana perceived it as like a sister.

And finally,

I think it will be from the perspective of a Plektos (human). But that’s a long way off if ever.


Heh, it did seem to be like a reverse Robin Hood moment…win the hearts and minds of people by stealing from them, and then giving a little back :wink:

If you still intend to do a final update on the public version, I will hold off then since at the moment, especially spelling errors, etc. I don’t know if something was reported twice or not.

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Hey, @Havenstone, just a question: has it been decided if Calea will be a helot-only romance or if Prince Nippletwister will be aristo-only or something like that?

No I never go against bear it has no sense being less 50 rebels. Text says something like you have no sick 3 rebels die during the week.

I normally have Calea control Hector so that time without her I select trying to avoid hector. text was confusing.

But there’s also the plektoi at the end too. Having a plektoi in a rampant position facing the viewer, or perhaps facing a pair (one male, one female) of slaves (wearing broken chains) or perhaps the plektoi is facing one slave and one noble instead, would be a good visual to draw eyes and motivate sales. The harrower is an interesting idea and very apropos, but I agree with those who believe it would take more artistic skill to pull off. Images of monsters and human beings draw human eyes more readily than inanimate objects.

@Havenstone: Either way, given all of the time that has been invested into this magnum opus of yours, I seriously suggest finding someone other than CoG’s usual artist(s) to do the artwork. I don’t mean to be rude here, just honest. Higher quality cover art would easily more than pay for itself with respect to sales, especially for a game with this sort of depth.

I strongly disagree with this. Nationalism is not necessarily xenophobia. An MC who takes the reigns of a young nationalist movement should have a great deal of freedom to shape it, to sideline the extremists that inevitably pop up while maintaining the support of the masses, and to get to know potential allies who are non-Shayardenes. Valuing your nation’s cultural heritage and language does not have to mean supporting Brown Shirts. Shayard needs allies. Going it alone and not paying attention to its neighborhood is how Shayard lost the first time around. And even after Karagond is broken, there is still the Halassurq Empire as a threat to justify maintaining the union. If the wall turns out to be too much of an extravagance to maintain without harrowings, then it would be much better to have the depradations of war with Halassur occur in Errets which is more easily defensible, or even better yet, in Halassur, than in Shayard. It’s also better to fight Halassur with allies, than by ourselves.


Letting the Band know is different from immediately trying to convince them to move into the Xaos lands en masse. The way it reads now, the MC is concealing potentially vital intelligence information from the Band. The MC could instead present that information with caveats about how scouts will need to verify things first. It is indeed a big shift in mindset and such shifts take time which is all the more reason to start the process early. The stranger is of questionable veracity, but most of the remaining information on the Xaos lands comes from the Hegemony whose truthfulness is even more doubtful depending on the MC’s views. The MC might also choose to convey Horion’s tale of the Xaos lands for a slightly more detailed briefing to the band. I do not mean to make light of the dangers of the Xaos lands which both stories emphasize in horror, but the MC must weigh those dangers against Theurges armed with oil of vitriol flying overhead.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression that phials of aetherial blood are probably the most valuable items in the band other than possibly the enchanted spears for very small bands. It seems to me that any remaining phials could be dealt with at the same time that the MC hands over the MC’s weapons. Some wisard MCs might prefer to hide remaining phials for later personal use while other wisard MCs might want to entrust them to Yebben where they might be of use if needed while the MC is away. It just feels like a rather important oversight to never mention what becomes of such valuable items when (depending on choices) Horion mentions that aetherial blood cannot be carried across a Xaos ward.

At the start of Chapter 4, we have the option to spend wealth to win over the Yeomanry but that option is not currently present at the end of Chapter 2. I suggest that if it is not too much trouble, the option to win over the Yeomanry should also be present at the end of Chapter 2. As someone who has played the game many times, I know to save funds at the end of Chapter 2 for Yeomanry public relations in Chapter 4 but that would not be obvious to someone playing for the first time.

I always play an INT 2 MC but I only recently played a hidden wisard. So I only recently actually earned the “Stand and Fight” achievement. Having earned that achievement, I would say that the bigger achievement was killing the Theurges in the tent all at once followed by destroying the Phalangite supply train. Both of those felt like important victories but standing and fighting after that just felt like a mistake even though we won. I suggest that there be an achievement for destroying the Phalangite supply train and possibly one for killing the Theurges.

I nominate destroying the Phalangite supply train and killing the Theurges as other candidates in the threat perception category. Using the “trick” on the sheep raid in Chapter 3 might also be worth a small bump to threat perception considering that the MC fielded over 100 “bandits” several days into open grasslands who then all slip away so far as we are told.

EDIT: The History section of the World Index addresses whether the first Thaumatarch actually discovered Theurgy.

On a purely cosmetic note concerning the 10 weeks of winter in Chapter 2, I suggest that the main screen for each week should indicate the week number at the top. If you lose track of the week, then I am unaware of a way to find it out during the week so you run the risk of assigning scouts to missions that won’t complete before the end of winter.

Also, if you get the chance, I still suggest that the text should be changed regarding how a wisard MC feels about the Tagmatarch with the permanently enchanted blade. The Theurges are the true threat since if not for them, a wisard MC could lift and then drop the Tagmatarch.


On another note, I do hope later sequels will allow an MC, if successful, to rub it in the faces of naysayers, and detractors.

A good example is if Zvad leaves because you take on the Phalangites head-on (unless you are a Charismatic Eclect). Getting told you “You will die, and I want no part of it…” well…I could see other members of the band now viewing him as a coward.

Heh, for that matter, taking Sybla down a peg or two would be fun…

And I admit, I would be interested to see what Calea would say to her cousin, a noble MC for actually pulling it off. Of course, if Calea fed you info, she would take some credit for it as well.


I sympathize with Zvad. He joined the band as a result of coincidence and convenience, he certainly didn’t sign up to throw himself at Phalangites. I don’t blame him for leaving.


@Havenstone Check and double Check in two playthroughs.

I don’t raid I don’t do anything aggressive. I have so much food that it rottens. And they are fat.

I have no ill people.

However, no matter what In four week three people die always without reason at all. This is the text I always get.
You set your 5 remaining followers to practicing with their bows. By the end of the week, they feel slightly better prepared for the attack you all expect.

At the end of the week, your food train returns, adding around 4 bushels to the 13 in your stores.

By the end of the week, your well-fed raiding parties have managed to keep illness at bay.

When all is said and done, you now have 40 followers (down by 3 who have died in the past week) to be deployed as you and Zvad see fit.

And I always manage my raid due Zapdos is stupid and start creating havoc by himself.

Seriously, I should have an achievement called Winter wonderland. You manage to not lose people in the winter.

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@Havenstone Another Breden ghost scene . I this time around Said Horion and the cousin Go in peace I wouldn’t harm you both but without invited them. Well After that Breden appeared very pissed about it.

Another one stats says at the end that Zpados is dead And he is not he is my deputy

Heh, for me that is what gives my mc his relentless drive to see that system torn down, since he has ample experience at being on the very bottom of it himself.[quote=“Norilinde, post:7659, topic:1601”]
An INT 2 MC that had chosen to teach the Helots to read talks about knowing the importance of being able to read. I would still like the ability to order books from my fences along the lines of “the pen is mightier than the sword”.

Would be nice, but maybe save the schooling for a future game, a camp in the soggy winter woodlands is a horrifically bad place for books and paper after all.

Probably intentional, although most real life revolutions arise out of the middle or even upper middle classes, it would make for more boring gameplay.

True, my mc wants to seek out those communities of people living and farming there himself first. To see if they can be recruited and in due time perhaps incorporated into his own new state.

Hey, that’s essentially politics, the game of give and take.

True, a good professional cover artist of the sort who do all those beautiful covers for sci-fi and fantasy works would probably be a good investment here.

If you define nationalism at its heart as being an imagined community then even my mc is still a nationalist, just one who seeks to built a new “imagined community” across most of the former Hegemony and integrate all of that into a new, overarching nationality, much like what eventually happened in the US. Of course that is a multi-generational endeavour at best and in the meantime he certainly isn’t fond of the more bigoted and narrow-minded Shayardene nationalism and its connections to the old monarchy and the organised Xthonic religion.
Of course all of the current super-large provinces ought to be broken up, so there will be no unified Shayard and Erezza left as such and preferably broken up in such a way that every new province or territory, aside from the capital province with the canal zone is not economically self-sustaining to force them to interlink with the other parts.

A distasteful if expedient tactic, though in case it is necessary, my mc would focus more on denouncing certain “barbaric” Hallasurq practices, chief among them their use and tolerance of slavery than outright demonizing every person from Hallasur. After all, for all their difference, my mc would still have much more in common with (former) Hallasurq slaves then he would with nobles from his own “homeland” of Shayard.
In the end my mc would rather that the new state be based on a more positive vision then the constant threat of war to unify it and keep it together.

True, although in the helot’s case they don’t know all that much about it to begin with and my mc certainly isn’t set on re-educating them in the old Shayardene values, some of the nobles and yeoman are a different story of course, but they’re not really in the majority here and my mc will find a way to bring them around.
In any case my mc personally does not value Shayard’s cultural heritage all that much since what he knows of it seems to consist of it being the birthplace of the Xthonic religion, the very thing he is fighting against and the old monarchy, which is a system he has absolutely no desire to see return.

I’m not so certain, after all my mc would likely eventually want to make parts of Erreza (Avezia and its surroundings) into his own capital, their mineral resources are absolutely vital for an industrial(ising) economy and lastly it contains the entirety if his proposed canal zone. I think for my mc Erezza may well become the most important zone and the core of his new state. So winning them over would be doubly important and if that means repudiating the current, narrow-minded and highly monarchical and religious Shayardene strain of nationalism, then so be it.

Far better would be to make sure we somehow don’t have to fight them at all, which is why my mc would be willing to agree to minor border adjustments in their favour and let them claim “victory” over the Hegemony.
If my mc wants to use the threat of Hallasur at all it will chiefly be in pointing out that the so-called Laconniers are nothing but Hallasurq stooges who seek to oppress the (former) helots and yeoman of Shayard in much the same way the Hegemony did.


I would imagine that it would be entirely possible to support both classes at the same time, perhaps allowing local nobles to fight rebellious helots without the help of the state or whatever you set up then march in and put whichever side is left standing to the sword.

Obviously this would leave an extremely depopulated world.

However with the remaining balance a new, loyal world could be created…that does leave the problem of the.extra dimension though.

Additionally, a failed PC rebellion might make things worse… Or Better .
Perhaps it will inspire for example.

Playing through the game once again to test it out and see if I can provide some tips, and I started thinking about one thing. The charisma/combat/intellect stats? I don’t think there is any opportunity to increase or decrease any of those beyond the very beginning, at least not in this game, so why not just describe those with a sentence rather than a number?

Quick examples:
“You are very charismatic, able to convince most…” (Charisma: 2)
“You are incompetent in personal combat, and you lack any sort of tactical skill…” (Combat: 0)
“You can read and write, and you have a basic understanding of many subjects of importance…” (Intellect: 1, for an Aristo at least)

Just some thoughts, I will see if I can provide any other feedback shortly.


You could read and have no intelligence at all. Intelligence of 1 is the one of a good person 0 is average. So like in real life skills need time and you were on run. This game is part of a big saga. So stats would grow at the beginning of each game.

Those were just quick examples, they should be properly adapted to whether one is a Helot or Aristocrat and so on. And I was not criticising the lack of skill improvement in any way, but since there is no way to improve any of the skills it seems a bit weird to have numbers representing your skills. Not to mention that you can better describe what the numbers mean if you use words. For example you say that a 0 means that you are average at that skill. I feel as if a 0 means that you are one of the worst around for that skill, and that you are unlikely to find anyone who will do worse than you in that specific category. It is actually possible that both are correct, but I would not know with certainty.

And while considering the future games is nice and all, I do not know how they will be written, nor does anyone else, maybe with the exception of Havenstone. Maybe there will be a single skill increase in the beginning of the next game, in which case I would voice the same suggestion (because Charisma: 3, Combat: 0, Intellect 1 still feels like it should be expressed with words rather than numbers, in my opinion) or there might be multiple skill increases which justify the current system. Charisma 5, Combat 2, Intellect 3 would probably be better expressed with numbers than with words, because otherwise you would sound like a genius at everything.

In the end, this is just a purely aesthetic change. Rather than “0”, you would read “You are the most boring person ever”. Rather than “1”, you would read “You are quite sociable and charismatic”. Rather than “2”, you would read “You have the voice of an Angel, and you can charm or convince even the most hardened criminal.” It would not actually eliminate the possibility of improving your skills in future games.

Is questions of personal preference. I prefer numbers and is far easy to relate and code. What he could do easily. Is O Your intelligence is average. 1 your intelligence is up the most people… etc I mean for me is a totally minor issue that absolutely don’t change code and maybe could helping people. Havenstone have explained several times how skills will upgrade and how at the end you could be or balanced or be a specialist in one skill

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I ran into a bug with the smuggling mission. I had 6 mules available, and enough people to do the rest of the work, but when I press that mission it would not actually remove the option or any of my bandits. I got the achievement, but nothing other than that happened. I could repeatedly do that job, but no one was ever send. When I tried to continue on to the next week, I did not get any of the rewards from the smuggling.

Not entirely sure what was causing this, but it probably had something to do with me just having 6 mules. I was sending people on missions to raid the priests too, if that matters.

EDIT: Found a really minor typo. When you first meet Simon de Firiac and can decide your attraction to him, you get the choice “the temptation of an attractive young noble(wo)man who plainly admires me.”. The “t” in “the” should be a capital letter.

@Havenstone, this showed up when I led the first raid on a noble estate:

When the last guards run for cover, 0 of your outlaws have fallen – but the barn is yours.

And I have two questions, if you’ll have them:

  1. What do you think of letting leaders get better at their job if we send on raids during the winter? Or would that be too much a coding hassle?

  2. Is the money we finish the game with going to affect the way our rebels perform in the sequel?

It’s a good suggestion, and I’ll consider it seriously.

My plan for future games (as Mara and those who’ve implausibly stuck with the game thread through all these thousands of posts know) is to give one stat bump per sequel. There will be four sequels. You can’t really end up being a genius at everything; if you specialize and end up with a 6 in one stat, you’ll still have a 1 and 0 in the others.

I recently had the chance to update my plans for the future games, and am even more excited about and committed to them than ever. So while it may seem ridiculous to worry about the future situation in a decade or two when I’ve written them all, I do want to make sure anything I do now will fit with that dream. It’s the dreams that keep me writing, and have got me through 500,000 plus words of XoR I over six years.

I’ll see if that smuggling bug still exists in my current working draft, which has been extensively bug-fixed and is almost working well enough to post again…

I suppose we could see casualties reducing based on the existing _lead stat. I don’t know if it would make enough of a difference to be worth the code, though; the casualties on each raid are pretty low in the scheme of things.

Yes. @Norilinde has convinced me that I need to write in a blood disposal choice when you’re bidding the bandits farewell, and I’ll let you choose whether they keep your wealth too.