Zombie Exodus: Safe Haven -- set for release 10/28/16

[KapitanSokolov]

@Owlet

The player shouldn’t be able to influence everyone else’s life/death status because that’s life both inside and outside of an apocalypse.

Actually, everything is preventable if you make the right choices, both in and outside of real-life. Of course, being real-life, you can’t know if the choice you made was the right one or not until you actually see the consequences. In a game, not so much. I hold that non-plot deaths should be preventable by players, otherwise it’ll feel like their decisions lack impact.

@ParrotWatcher

it does seem as though it’s unfairly targetting them.

Agreed. Damn, the teens are in a world of angst right now. I don’t think most real teens would hold it together for long if the situation don’t brighten up a little.

@ParrotWatcher

seeing gay people as mere expendable side-characters is not nice.

It’s sad that people throw in minorities in the media in order to appear inclusive, but end up just making them expendable characters. Not that this is the case with SH, I’m just commenting in general.

[NJG]

@JimD

I have a (very likely stupid) idea, how about a scientist MC (or an MC with a high science skill) mutating a zombie to make the zombie romanceable?

This idea is just a very weird thought, though. Perhaps a Teen MC with a high science skill could have a mutated zombie teen as an RO?

[Eiwynn]

@NJG

This idea is just a very weird thought, though. Perhaps a Teen MC with a high science skill could have a mutated zombie teen as an RO?

This is giving me flashbacks to Weird Science images.

[KapitanSokolov]

I can see a plot where the RO has been infected and the MC tries to care for their new zombie companion until they find a cure…Just “mutating” a random zombie and making them a RO sounds rather creepy to me, though XD

[ParrotWatcher]

@NJG

Perhaps a Teen MC with a high science skill could have a mutated zombie teen as an RO?

My teen would actually have tried to take Tommy home, in the vain hope of there someday being a cure, had that actually been an option.

[BK64]

I’m sure I’d roll an MC who would be down with a de-zombied Kelly LeBrock.

[Owlet]

@ParrotWatcher

My argument against this would be the fact that he’s only really memorable to teen (and student) players

I’m inclined to disagree with your argument. He approaches more than just teenagers and college students (movie stars, MMA, wrestlers, police officers, health professionals and military personnel come to mind - these are all adult profs who could’ve gone on those PrimeMatch dates with no confirmed deaths for named characters).

@ParrotWatcher

if the player doesn’t remember him, his death would lack any of the meaning you are trying to attribute to it.

I’ve never tried to attribute meaning to death. What I’m saying is that there is purpose behind death (in fictional works). They’re different concepts.

My argument was that if a player doesn’t remember a character then a change in a character’s life/death status should still further the concept that death tolls are higher in the beginning of a zombie apocalypse (because there are more people to infect). These are not “meaningless” deaths, these are purposeful and deliberately delivered to represent the chaos in Nightfall.

@ParrotWatcher

Once again, most prologues do have the player responsible for either being able to save (or not) one or more other characters, in their prologue. The teen doesn’t have this luxury, as the only survivors (the twins) will survive (at least for now) no matter what.

I’m sorry to hear that about the teens but I still feel as though on the whole there should be more unpreventable deaths. Although I’d expect teen characters to enjoy a lot more background-specific activities since they did win the favourite profession poll.

@ParrotWatcher

I would argue that dead representation is possibly even worse than non-representation. It happens far too much, and seeing gay people as mere expendable side-characters is not nice.

You’re assuming that just because someone is expendable because they died in early stage of the apocalypse. This is untrue. Tommy, like most well-written characters (which aren’t unnamed background ones), are narrative devices - they serve purposes. His death is essentially a part of a larger thematic message (“death is unforgiving in the early stages of the apocalypse”, “innocent people die” etc). Jim himself said that’s why he originally killed him off.

To further clarify, the deaths (or the non-romanceability) of the gay men listed are still examples of decent/good representation - they are not meaninglessly punted into the storyline, which is why I brought up the subject of having no narrative-confirmed lesbians.

If you want to further discuss the topic of LGBTI+ representation in general, it’s best to message me and keep this thread for ZE:SH-related comments.

@StarshinaSokolov

Actually, everything is preventable if you make the right choices, both in and outside of real-life.

I’m sorry, I find this difficult to believe. Life is full of random chances, biases and other matter out of an individual’s control.

Lets take heart disease as an example, it’s the leading cause of death in the USA and is responsible for approximately 1 in 4 deaths.

Heart disease can be caused by high blood pressure, diabetes and even inhaling second-hand smoke. High blood pressure and diabetes both have family histories and can be genetic (type one diabetes is inherited). If you are born with type one diabetes - will you still say “everything is preventable if you make the right choices” if you got heart disease? Sure, you could argue that maybe your parents just shouldn’t have given birth to you - but that’s out of your hands and that was the point you were trying to make.

How about a conflict of interest if two individuals have opposite goals? If an assassin chooses all the “right” choices to kill his target (or prevent his target from making an unfavourable political deal) but a bodyguard makes all the “right” choices to protect his charge - what would happen according to your theory? One of them must fail. Therefore not “everything is possible”.

@StarshinaSokolov

I hold that non-plot deaths should be preventable by players, otherwise it’ll feel like their decisions lack impact.

I’d be inclined to agree with you if unpreventable deaths were consistently abundant in the game but we have good reason to believe that Jim will not overuse them (he agreed the killings were due to how early it is in the outbreak).

[KapitanSokolov]

Okay, my mistake. I should have said “Some things are preventable if you make the right choices.” I didn’t think you’d take it that literally.

I was linking the game scenario to real-life, not the opposite. While people die due to deceases in real life all the time, it would be a plot-relevant point it it happened in a zombie game, don’t you think? As I said, plot-relevant deaths are one thing, arbitrary deaths are another.

Regarding the “assassin vs bodyguard” scenario, the way it is presented, it’s obviously engineered in a way to prove your point. You seem to consider both the Assassin and the Bodyguard as capable of making the “right” choices simultaneously, when that is obviously not the case. If your “right” choice didn’t incapacitate your opponent from making their “right” choice, then it obviously wasn’t that good of a choice to begin with.

[ParrotWatcher]

@Owlet

He approaches more than just teenagers and college students (movie stars, MMA, wrestlers, police officers, health professionals and military personnel come to mind - these are all adult profs who could’ve gone on those PrimeMatch dates with no confirmed deaths for named characters).

Except that his backstory for them is just “some kid who lives nearby,” so his death wouldn’t be as meaningfulfor those characters than it would be for a character for whom he is a "former (and possibly current) crush. (I would say that in this case, meaning vs purpose is somewhat semantic: i.e. the purpose of the death is to have meaning for the player.)

@Owlet

Although I’d expect teen characters to enjoy a lot more background-specific activities since they did win the favourite profession poll.

But you don’t agree that the saving of a formerly unsavable character as a potential RO would be one of these activities (especially when the alternative is just adding in a bunch more ROs out of nowhere)? If he were savable for teens only, it would help to balance their already overly depressing story with the far more upbeat stories of the other professions.

[Owlet]

@Owlet

The player shouldn’t be able to influence everyone else’s life/death status because that’s life both inside and outside of an apocalypse.

@StarshinaSokolov

I should have said "Some things are preventable if you make the right choices."

Then we agree.

@StarshinaSokolov

I was linking the game scenario to real-life, not the opposite. While people die due to deceases in real life all the time, it would be a plot-relevant point it it happened in a zombie game, don’t you think? As I said, plot-relevant deaths are one thing, arbitrary deaths are another.

I do not understand what point you are trying to make.

If you’re arguing that his death was not plot-relevant, see what I wrote above. Tommy’s death is essentially a part of a larger thematic message (“death is unforgiving in the early stages of the apocalypse”, “innocent people die” etc). Jim himself said that’s why he originally killed him off. It is plot relevant.

@ParrotWatcher

Except that his backstory for them is just “some kid who lives nearby,” so his death wouldn’t be as meaningful

You were talking about memorability earlier on and now you’re commenting on meaningfulness. Again, I reiterate - the purpose of death is not to have personal meaning on the player - but to push the idea of chaos in Nightfall.

Purpose and meaning are similar in our current case. Hyperboles are narrative devices too. They don’t have any deep meaning on a macro level but they have the purpose of emphasizing a point.

@StarshinaSokolov

You seem to consider both the Assassin and the Bodyguard as capable of making the "right" choices simultaneously, when that is obviously not the case. If your “right” choice didn't incapacitate your opponent from making their "right" choice, then it obviously wasn't that good of a choice to begin with.

It’s completely possible because like I said - bias and random chance exist. The bodyguard could have done everything “right” in his power but his charge may have been out of line and gotten shot. It is not legally possible for you to control every step someone takes. Or maybe an “ally” betrayed the bodyguard without the bodyguard’s knowledge. Similarly, an assassin may have lined up the perfect shot only for the target to stumble and suffer a non-lethal wound.

I suppose the point I’m trying to make is that the “right” choices aren’t completely dependent on your choices. Even those without conflicting interests can affect you if you made all the “right” ones in your power.

@ParrotWatcher

But you don’t agree that the saving of a formerly unsavable character as a potential RO would be one of these activities (especially when the alternative is just adding in a bunch more ROs out of nowhere)? If he were savable for teens only, it would help to balance their already overly depressing story with the far more upbeat stories of the other professions.

It could be but Tommy's death is essentially a part of a larger, time-constrained thematic message about the abundance of death in the early stages of the apocalypse. I'd argue that the extra ROs probably won’t just be a bunch "out of nowhere", since this is Jim’s work we’re talking about

[KapitanSokolov]

@Owlet

I do not understand what point you are trying to make.

I’m not talking specifically about Tommy or thematic messages, I’m talking about the concept of being able to have an impact on events unless they directly affect the plot (since if they’re plot-relevant they’re unchangeable by default).

@Owlet

an assassin may have lined up the perfect shot only for the target to stumble and suffer a non-lethal wound.

The assassin still chose to shoot at that exact moment. Hell, he chose to shoot the target in the first place. He could have used poison, explosives, physical contact, or any other methods of dispatching the victim, some more and some less susceptible to random variables.

In real-life you can’t influence everybody the way you want to, because you have no way of knowing what will happen. In a game, you can always play it again with another combination of choices and skills, so if you find yourself faced with a situation that you can’t change, then you know that there’s something wrong. Your choices have no impact.

[ParrotWatcher]

@Owlet

the purpose of death is not to have personal meaning on the player

Except that @JimD’s initial comment on the matter claims otherwise:

@JimD

Sorry about Tommy. I wanted your character to experience death of someone known and decide on how to handle it and how it makes you feel.

I will admit that I’m being a little hypocritical here: the death had the desired effect on me, so I want to change it, but I’m using the fact that it didn’t have an effect on many people as one of my arguments.

@Owlet

It could be but Tommy’s death is essentially a part of a larger, time-constrained thematic message about the abundance of death in the early stages of the apocalypse.

Which is something that the teen MC has already experienced, a lot (admittedly only seen if they stick around to try to save people), while most other characters haven’t. In most other cases, the deaths are limited to unnamed (or barely-known) bystanders, aside from the policeman’s obviously-doomed partner, and maybe one or two others.

@Owlet

I’d argue that the extra ROs probably won’t just be a bunch “out of nowhere”, since this is Jim’s work we’re talking about

And that’s why I’m hoping that at least one of them will be an already-introduced character who would otherwise have died

[BK64]

@StarshinaSokolov

Regarding the “assassin vs bodyguard” scenario, the way it is presented, it’s obviously engineered in a way to prove your point. You seem to consider both the Assassin and the Bodyguard as capable of making the “right” choices simultaneously, when that is obviously not the case. If your “right” choice didn’t incapacitate your opponent from making their “right” choice, then it obviously wasn’t that good of a choice to begin with.

@Owlet

It’s completely possible because like I said - bias and random chance exist. The bodyguard could have done everything “right” in his power but his charge may have been out of line and gotten shot. It is not legally possible for you to control every step someone takes. Or maybe an “ally” betrayed the bodyguard without the bodyguard’s knowledge. Similarly, an assassin may have lined up the perfect shot only for the target to stumble and suffer a non-lethal wound.

Having been in a fair few fights, I’ve got to agree with @Owlet here. Sometimes, you can do everything right and still get jacked up. Never mind the example of the two, perfectly evenly matched opponents making the exact right decisions at the exact right time (in which case, that comes down to a matter of luck and random play), there is always someone out there who is bigger, meaner, stronger, less hesitant, and/or faster than you. Sometimes you zig when you should’ve zagged. Even when you find yourself in a situation where shit’s hitting the fan, you can sometimes pull it out, only to get wrecked later. Fighting is a series of random chances and gambles and ploys that turn out in your favor, or don’t. I’ve been beaten by guys half my size because they had better technique, and I’ve beaten guys twice my size because I can take a hit like it’s my job. It’s just one of those things.

Sometimes you can do everything right, and game over.

[poison_mara]

I don’t really care about Tummy always nobody forced me to care about that kid or whatever. If his death is there to moving some feeling of helplessness… No single death has moved me any emotional response except COOL MORE LOOT. Probably if Woody become killable his death would make me happy. Jaime ,my niece and my pet are the only creatures I care about.

[KapitanSokolov]

Sometimes, when I find myself in a situation where there’s nothing I can do to to win, I ask myself “how the hell did I get here in the first place?”

The answer is usually the point where I made a “wrong” choice XD

Some fights are unwinnable (hell, I’d say life itself is unwinnable), yes, but most can be avoided. That’s why I never enter a fist-fight without a firearm, and never enter a fire-fight without armored support

[JimD]

@Lithophene [quote=“Lithophene, post:4512, topic:2000”]
I’m just mostly curious about whether or not either of them will be recruitable.
[/quote]

I rather not give out major spoilers anymore, after doing so on Rachel’s storyline. Feedback is better when people discover things in game as it happens.

@Lithophene

I mostly just giggled 'cause I imagined the Makarov’s just grabbing some cans of food and then spotting the cartons of cigarettes just stacked up neatly beside them and going “Well, why not?” and nabbing them.

What the Makarovs took is fairly specific but yes, I agree it’s a poor way to protect inventory.

@ParrotWatcher [quote=“ParrotWatcher, post:4513, topic:2000”]
My argument against this would be the fact that he’s only really memorable to teen (and student) players,
[/quote]

Remember, I thought few people would play teens. I have a template I use when an NPC meets an MC:

if wearing a uniform…
if a teen or college student…
if a tattoo or piercing is visible
if a weapon is visible
if a high-profile background (movie star, wrestler)…

So for teens, they usually receive flavor text, because they are visibly different (due to age) and it makes sense most people would comment about it.

@ParrotWatcher

Except that his backstory for them is just “some kid who lives nearby,” so his death wouldn’t be as meaningfulfor those characters than it would be for a character for whom he is a "former (and possibly current) crush.

I am inclined to respond in a way @StarshinaSokolov did – I am surprised Tommy’s life or death had an impact to readers after such a short intro to him. What I can do to fix this is to make him known to all professions/backgrounds as well as teens (like I do with Rachel).

@ParrotWatcher

it didn’t have an effect on many people as one of my arguments.

I agree, and I like the idea to make others care about him. Mrs. Ortega is coming next which is why I split up the pair in that scene.

@ParrotWatcher

the teen has already lost pretty much all of their friends by this point

Aside from parents, other backgrounds have experienced loss, such as police officer and scientist. Teens also have a major benefit in that they have two NPCs who become permanent members of their group: Madison and Brody, who are built in ROs.

@ParrotWatcher

I would argue that dead representation is possibly even worse than non-representation.

This really struck me when stated. Of those gay men introduced, Tony is dead (never met, so there’s no attachment), Alfonso is barely mentioned and his status is not discussed, Greg is alive, and Tommy is dead. I really included mention of orientation to make diverse characters, which is a criticism from the first game.

And please keep pointing out times when you or anyone thinks there’s an issue in how groups are represented. I assure you it’s oversight if it happens but being unaware doesn’t give me immunity to criticism. Most times I don’t consider race, gender, age when I pick who lives or dies but I base it on timing in game.

@ParrotWatcher

And that’s why I’m hoping that at least one of them will be an already-introduced character who would otherwise have died

Yes, there will be some NPCs like this and I don’t doubt you can guess who they are.

@NJG [quote=“NJG, post:4515, topic:2000”]
I have a (very likely stupid) idea, how about a scientist MC (or an MC with a high science skill) mutating a zombie to make the zombie romanceable?
[/quote]

interesting idea but pretty difficult to fathom in this game. It’s a very strange concept and one I’m not sure I can tackle in a way that would make this game publishable.

@Owlet I agree with a lot of what you said. [quote=“Owlet, post:4520, topic:2000”]
If you want to further discuss the topic of LGBTI+ representation in general,
[/quote]

If discussions pertain to this thread, feel free to post them here so we can keep the topic going.

@StarshinaSokolov [quote=“”]
I hold that non-plot deaths should be preventable by players, otherwise it’ll feel like their decisions lack impact.
[/quote]

I try when it doesn’t add unplanned NPCs. If Jonah lives, I would have to give the MC a way to reach out and help him. Same with the dates in the movie theater, Carter, and numerous other NPCs. I see the problem though. I remember this being an issue in ZE. Originally Candace died in Chapter 4 until people pointed out she can be saved easily by the MC. In Safe Haveb, there are already so many NPCs, I have to add new ones carefully.And when I kill off an NPC, i have to do so in a way that doesn’t piss of players and make them feel loss of agency.

@StarshinaSokolov

The answer is usually the point where I made a “wrong” choice XD

And I hope to add some more forks in the road with unpredictable side effects.

[poison_mara]

About short fuse the use is far limited. I was expecting a severe handicap. For instance Imagine this concrete role-playing scene. Virginia Penelope is a drunken short fuse kleptomaniac Westler heel name Black Herpes. She has gone shopping letting Woody and the con art woman to protect her home. She returned home found all raided and those fools alive and Useless… I JUST WANTED KILL THEM OR AT LEAST MENACE THEM NOT … Nah don’t matter guys give me a hug ajd sing together let peace a chance. …

[ParrotWatcher]

@JimD

I am surprised Tommy’s life or death had an impact to readers after such a short intro to him.

Honestly, it surprised me, too. I never realised I’d end up campaigning for the life of a fictional character.

@JimD

What I can do to fix this is to make him known to all professions/backgrounds as well as teens (like I do with Rachel).

@JimD

I agree, and I like the idea to make others care about him.

So… now you’re just going to make everybody care about him before killing him off… I guess I was kinda advocating for that earlier, but I’d still prefer survival.

@JimD

other backgrounds have experienced loss, such as police officer and scientist.

I would posit that the scientist made a net gain out of their prologue.

@JimD

Greg is alive,

That’s the guy on the phone at his parents’ house, right? I don’t recall any mention of his orientation, and I didn’t realise he would be that important. Note that I am certain you didn’t mean anything by this, but then I don’t think many people do. Gay characters are generally quite minor (which is annoying in itself), and thus are very easy to kill off without really affecting the plot.

@JimD

@ParrotWatcher

And that’s why I’m hoping that at least one of them will be an already-introduced character who would otherwise have died

Yes, there will be some NPCs like this and I don’t doubt you can guess who they are.

T-Tommy…? Who am I kidding, it’s probably the research-stealing scientist, isn’t it?

@JimD

I try when it doesn’t add unplanned NPCs.

I suppose you could “replace” NPCs, i.e. have two mutually exclusive NPCs sharing the same role in scenes that don’t really concern those characters (like fight scenes, etc.), and only write separate scenes for them when that character is important to that scene.

[poison_mara]

Please don’t think I am trolling or anything but I just really wanted to know why so big deal about Tommy. It is because is gay? I found really racist and anti gender queer that notion. It’s like say because x is gay can’t die and have to be a pivotal part of the experience. The sex orientation or race should not be the main focus of a character story. It is offensive first for gays and for everyone. It’s like say oh she is a girl down the difficult of the game because we don’t want she depressed because how bad girls are playing video games. …
Tommy barely appeared five seconds in two or three origins and doesn’t show any personality or anything else really . My favorite origin lost the plot victims with no choice to save jer or him. Same in many others. It is an apocalyptic scenario someone near her has to death. So what appeal he has besides gender orientation

[Lithophene]

I liked his frosted tips. Is Lithophene joking? Only partially. Only partially.

If I wasn’t about to head off for work, I’d leave a proper response, but I’ll let @ParrotWatcher answer for us.

Meanwhile, @JimD, are we going to be able to choose where our Safe Haven is going to be established? Or is it going to be more like ZE:X where there’s only one location that can serve as the (future) base of operations? Will it be possible to recruit enough people that you simply have to find a bigger base?