Because personally it will always or at least feel one sided, like the analogy EvilChani used. I ask you to go to a baseball game and it’s nothing you care for or have interest in but you go for me. It just doesn’t feel right. I would like for you to want it as equally as I do. Not just because I’m solely interested in it.
You even said it in this paragraph, something you’re interested or they wanted. Like I said previously, it always goes back to being a chore you gotta do.
That makes me uncomfortable and I shouldn’t have involved you in the first place.
Okay but like, that is assuming you ‘don’t care or have an interest’ in going to a baseball game. I don’t see it that way at all. For me, it’s more like ‘I have always had an interest in baseball, but I wouldn’t want to go to a baseball game alone. Since you have expressed an interest in actually going to one I would like to go too.’ Like, it can be more then just ‘for your partner.’
Not talking about sex, but if I want to do something that is not my habit or my usual interest, isn’t because someone is forcing me to do it, but because I want to experience this situation with the other person, or spend some time with them. I would never view this as a chore, obligation or a one sided thing. Even in platonic relationships. Sometimes my friends ask me to go to places where they play some kind of music that I don’t like. But I would still go, to spend some time with them. That isn’t a obligation and I don’t feel pressured to do it. It’s because I want to. When two adults consent about doing something, I don’t see any reason to feel guilty about it. Maybe your partner isn’t much into sex, but feel very horny thinking about making you horny? Who knows? That’s why we need to talk about our personal boundaries.
People have different views of love and relationships and they change and that’s okay.
I would print this and put on a board on top of this topic if I could
People change. Every person we met change us. My preferences about romance and sex today are so different of when I was young. People don’t fit in boxes. That’s why I find so interesting that people can create characters who also change as we interact with them.
As the question of topic goes, yes I would romance an ace RO. I also liked Vivian from Stars Arisen very much.
Just one more edit, I saw some people talking about Markus on Red Embrace: Hollywood. Oh boy, this game sure is… something. There isn’t a single sex scene that isn’t extreme unconfortable. I played Randal route first and got a little unconfortable but then I played Heath’s route and truly got nauseated with his sex scene. By the time I was playing Markus route I was following a guide and just wishing for the thing to be over. And never played it again. I think Markus good end isn’t terrible because you don’t have sex and the moral of this game is that Vampires shouldn’t be doing sex.
The thing is would you ever desire it without me having to ask, you would come to me and ask to go without hesitation? You like baseball games and want me to be there because you don’t want to go alone.
Anything that paraphrases down to “It’s not really my thing but I want to make you happy so we can do it if you’d enjoy it” is just about the least sexy form of consent I can imagine. Sounds like the kind of thing you say when your partner wants to go to a movie you’re not interested in.
For me it’s a total “You know what, nevermind” moment.
There is a vast difference between “I’m interested in baseball but I’ve never gone to a game because I don’t want to go by myself, would you like to catch a game this weekend?” and “Baseball’s really not my thing but we can do it if you want because I like making you happy”.
I’m not sure if it is because it’s not a very good analogy, but I must disagree. Things are not black and white. If it were like this, people would never come together bc we never enjoy things in the same measure, agree on everything equally nor have the same interests to begin with.
Taking the sports example, if a partner likes football and I don’t have a particular interest in it I can still enjoy the game, for many reasons: I’m with them, I get a chance to be a part of their interests, maybe I don’t know the rules of the game, but when they cheer for their team it’s exhilarating, it’s something different that I hadn’t tried before, etc etc. Maybe I won’t enjoy it as much as they do, but how could you possibly measure how much is that? Does it really matter? Does it matter if when they ask I tell them I want to go to the next game as well?
Now, it’s obviously different if I absolutely hate football and they make me go, that would be plainly cruel
It’s not perfect but I get the basis of what it’s trying to say when it comes towards romantic relationships. I want you to desire me physically, sexually and emotionally on the same level as I do you. If one of these are missing or lacking then the relationship will fall flat. These things may not matter to you but they do me.
Anything that paraphrases down to “It’s not really my thing but I want to make you happy so we can do it if you’d enjoy it” is just about the least sexy form of consent I can imagine. Sounds like the kind of thing you say when your partner wants to go to a movie you’re not interested in.
Anything that paraphrases down to “It’s not really my thing but I want to make you happy so we can do it if you’d enjoy it” is just about the least sexy form of consent I can imagine. Sounds like the kind of thing you say when your partner wants to go to a movie you’re not interested in.
Okay I’m going to be forefront, the way you guys are flattening down the wide range of beliefs or mentalities regarding sex among asexuals to a singular perspective is really, really off-putting and shows you are not very educated on what asexual people actually believe.
This has made me incredibly uncomfortable and unwilling to further the discussion from my end, educate yourself is my perspective at this point. @Eiwynn provided resources for learning about asexuality.
Those in the asexual spectrum are not a monolith, just like any other minority, so to treat all of us like we carry a singular belief or perspective on consent, sex, or relationships is innately going to be disrespectful.
While we are talking about characters, fictional characters and how they are represented are an essential part of developing how people in a larger basis view minorities. For the same reason having representation of POC, trans, gay, cultural and other minorities is important, asexual representation and normalisation is essential for demonstrating this. I will repeat, we are not a monolith, we do not all hold the same perspective or needs or wants regarding relationships or sex. As such the fictional characters made to represent us also should not be one note regarding their consent to sex, wants or needs in a relationship.
It’s important to remember that while the conversation is framed around asexual characters that real people are impacted by the way we talk about them.
Do not assume because someone who is ace spectrum consents for sex that it is ‘only because you want to do it,’ you are equating that to say that they wouldn’t enjoy it themself. Even if they didn’t and they only consent because they love you, cherish you, and want to show that love and affection through engaging in a very intimate act… It’s frankly demeaning to me to talk down to that showing of love as being ‘the least sexy form of consent I can imagine.’ You can have that perspective, but don’t expect me to share it or all asexual people to respect it.
There are two game developmental reasons I brought these things up:
First, before you can make intelligent decisions regarding your game making, you must know your subject material.
So, while @abbytrevor is correct in saying this is a discussion about game characters, if you, as an author or as a game designer, do not do your research, then when you do attempt to be inclusive, or to write with sensitivity, you might make unforced errors.
Many people talk about the character Markus in that vampire game. The thing is, I know that the developers had resources and the testers to get this done right, but somewhere in the writing or development, it seems they dropped the ball on this relationship.
So, let’s assume you really do want to write asexual characters that have friendship and romance arcs… what then?
First recognize that your asexual character is an individual and that as such, they should be changing and evolving as the story progresses.
With Markus, I think the developers tried showing this with Markus’ willingness to lay with the MC …
Next, try to recognize that sexuality and romance both have attraction and desire.
Markus is definitely attracted to the MC in that game, from the time they meet until the end credits. Here is where I think the writers of that project could have perhaps done better to inform their readers … when I played Markus’ route, it was obvious to me that Markus was romantically attracted to the MC and not sexually attracted.
With that said, going by the reactions I read here, they did not get that across to others.
This is where you, as a reader and a tester, can really help the authors writing asexual characters succeed in writing better arcs.
This is also where the authors can ask specific questions of their readers.
Yes, professional sensitivity authors charge a lot of money for what they do, but there are many asexual members of this community, and most, if not all, would be flattered to be asked to help you get things right.
This discussion has many perspectives and a lot of information for both authors and readers … let’s take what is here and use it to write better arcs for our asexual cast members.
Quick note - I moved @lis-walker’ post about Red Embrace: Hollywood’s design goals to the Otome Games thread as it was very interesting and I’d love to discuss it more, but want to avoid derailing this thread - the link to the post is above.
I’m sex-repulsed so I don’t know if this comparison works, but would you feel the same way about sex if you were in a relationship with someone with a lower sex drive? Or if you had a kink that your partner didn’t, but you both agree to engage in it? Again, I wouldn’t know, but I imagine how someone would feel having sex in these scenarios is similar to how some asexual people feel.
Thank you so much for this post. The direction this thread was taking was starting to make me very uncomfortable, but I didn’t feel coherent enough to try and course correct.
Quoted for truth.
ETA a bit more on this:
And, you know, I think anyone is welcome to have their own feelings about the importance of sex in a relationship–that’s kind of the point, right?
But I’d like to ask anyone who does think sex is important (and I’m not asexual myself, just so that’s clear) to please take extra extra care not to post things that suggest a lack of interest in sex or not placing importance on sex is some kind of problem.
There’s a history that people are likely not aware of where asexuality is treated as a medical disorder which needs to be “fixed,” so stating your opinion about a lack of sex drive being a sign of relationship failure can come across as pretty harmful–even though I’m sure that isn’t the intent, and even if it’s absolutely fair to say things like “I need sexual intimacy to feel satisfied in a relationship”! (Which is probably the better way to phrase things like that instead of things that sound like “If you don’t want sex, the relationship will fail.”)
I’m sorry @Phenrex and @Stewart_Baker making you guys or anyone else uncomfortable wasn’t my intention at all. I already had no business adding my unnecessary opinions in this matter in the first place.
I’ll note in the future to not engage in certain threads or topics
I know I said I was done but I felt it necessary to make a response to this in particular.
I already had no business adding my unnecessary opinions in this matter in the first place.
No one was saying you aren’t allowed to have your opinion or share it. However, when talking about subjects revolving around minorities that have a history of discrimination or marginalisation it’s important to be careful about the way we orate those opinions. Language is a tool that can be brandished or be used to uplift, and it’s important to hear a variety of opinions, but to also consider how what we say might impact those made into the subject of discussion.
Expressing that you might not feel attraction towards an asexual character/person who ‘only agrees to have sex because it’s something you want rather then them wanting it too’ is fine. But in context it felt like it a declaration of that being the only way an asexual person/character can feel about sex, and then also saying you find it to be ‘the least attractive form of consent’ ends up becoming a statement that feels like an attack against asexual people more broadly. Like I said before, no minority is a monolith, so ascribing particular beliefs, opinions, needs or wants onto all based on the characterisation or nature of a few is rife for issues.
Being challenged is not a personal affront, it’s better to be challenged and presented an opportunity to learn or grow then to shy away from a group altogether out of fear of it. We all are presented with challenges towards our own biases, due to the nature of us being people biases are unavoidable, but being open to learning allows us to broaden our horizons.
I understand but I rather not make anyone feel uncomfortable or unsure here especially since there’s not a lot of places people can express themselves.
I’ll watch but not engage it’s just how I want to go about it.
This stuff is hard, FWIW, and nobody expects anyone to be perfect about it. (Nobody can be perfect, about this or other things.) Being willing to apologize and acknowledge missteps is great.
I think it’s really hard with things like this, where (as @Phenrex notes) there’s all this background that might be invisible. It’s really easy to say something that seems totally innocent but ends up with the potential to harm.
I know I’ve been there and done that, and it sucks, so I get where you’re coming from, for sure!
And (again) you obviously don’t have to keep responding in this thread. But I did want to say thanks for acknowledging and replying graciously.
That is to say, I am that Ace that is being discussed. Aka, A sex-repulsed asexual person (alloromantic, if you’re curious, which means I do love romance and am in fact very deeply in love with my husband), who has sex with their partner ONLY FOR THE REASON of the fact that it makes that partner happy.
Here’s the thing, all things perfect? I would never have sex again. I’d masturbate once a day, and that’d be it. I’d NEVER HAVE TO THINK about my partner’s sex drive or whether they want it, or what I have to do during sex to make it pleasurable/good for them. It’d just be something I never think about.
BUT, because my partner is in fact part of the allosexual spectrum(He very much likes sex, but only with people he has an emotional connection to. Demisexual is the term here.) and therefore requires sexual contact to feel loved and healthy.
And so, I consent to having sex with him, occasionally (we average twice a month to once a week, depending on my mood, physical health, etc.), in order to satisfy that need for him. Neither of us are truly HAPPY with this arrangement. But we are HAPPY together. We love each other, and understand that in this situation, the only other option would be for us to split up. Which we’re NOT going to do.
From my perspective, it’s like a chore that I have to do in order to be a good partner. Much like an Allosexual person might have to “watch a movie they don’t like” in order to make their partner happy.
So, hopefully this perspective helps ya’ll write Sex-Repulsed Aces a little better. I’m open for any questions about my experience.
