"Werewolf: The Apocalypse — The Book of Hungry Names" Demo Available Now!

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Yep, i know.

When you know you will fail, why choose that option? Why not choose one that fits best for you but get punished for not having the ability to do otherwise?

That is the problem i seen.

Ideal build for this is charisma and intelligent based pup to succeed in most scenes that I saw. Any other build isn’t as successful with the current paths.

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Your comments remind of 2 things.

  1. this is a fundmental divide between realism and catering to all audiences. The truth of the matter is that both IN CANNON and in real life, charisma and intelligence and a few key skills like persuasion, leadership and computers/investgation carries you through the vast majority of life and games reflect that well. While you may want to be a rampaging combat oriented beast or a super stealthy and highly resolved Galliard, that wont help when you just need to use words. and in most circumstances where you’re dealing with beings capable of logic, you can usually do well with just words. Comparitively, there arent as many instances certain builds can reasonably fair well in. An ahroun war machine will suck when it comes to subtly even if we the player will want that. We cant be an everyman. I recommend actively envisioning yourself as the character based on their background and go from there. its much more fun and way less frustrating. Or pick a build and stick to it.
  2. This is part of the overall meta plot of Werewolf:The Apocalypse; The werewolves are hammers, but none of their problems are nails. They constantly fight among themselves, they burn every bridge they have, they blame others, they can’t adapt to the times and are stuck in the past. Even the demo itself shows this (great props to the writer btw, i love they captured the existential crisis the Wolves suffer). They are weapons of WAR. Not mediators, caretakers, messengers, teachers, or even politicians. They are weapons, Gaia’s Fangs. And to make matters worse, they killed everyone who DID fill those other roles. Granted the Garou are fighting a primordial existential force at great personal cost but they arent the traditional ‘heroes’ of the story and that in and of itself ties into the overall World of Darkness metaplot: Urban Horror- everyone’s a bad guy. Everyone is shades of grey morality. And the Werewolve’s issue comes down to the fact that they try and solve every issue as if it were a nail because they are hammers. Its the irony of their existence that you’re experiencing IN GAME and i again give massive props to the writer for bringing that across so well. Youre gonna struggle. Youre gonna be frustrated. Youre gonna have to accept petty disrespect from characters. Youre gonna be outclassed in many ways (in terms of stat checks like CHA or INT) because the Garou themselves are outclassed in those areas. Youre frustrated yes but I think you misunderstand; Its not a problem, its by design. Shift your perception from dismay at the game’s mechanics and to empathizing with the plight of the Garou and play accordingly.
    Or just accept that you’re never gonna be able to do everything or even most things well because this a game with limited resources and not a Triple A game developer budget.
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Stealth, secretive, and such is entangled in the game here but not developed well.

I would have to go with a charismatic/leadership type over the stealthy type they give the option to do but not implement.

If one build wont work then dont add that style is my issue with this. There is one other book that failed same idea, allow this type of character but never implement it. That isnt a players failure to uphold “in character” build at that point.

I knew I was just going to shot to hell and back, trying to see if something can be altered/added to represent the roles, the author themselves added, but not implemented.

Guess Im done here.

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I like to play stealth types myself, so good catch. It’s been a few weeks since I played through the demo. I know there was a note after my play session that said 2 more clans (is that the right word?) will be added to the game. Are one of these known for stealth? I remember while playing I thought I could choose to be one of those clans, but was never given the opportunity. Argh. I’m sorry my memory is so sketchy. Basically, I’m curious if one of those clans covers more stealthy type builds and will be implemented later. Someone more familiar with WTA might know.

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I don’t like that my first post here is just this, but beggars can’t be chooser…

The complaint that the other user have is very legit, first because this isn’t a tabletop rpg with other players and a game master, this is a rigid game, if something fails is not the fault of the player and I have encountered the same problems, the game is very rigid favoring certain builds over others and shouln’t be like at all, that problem don’t exist in Night Roads.

And second, what are you talking about? WtA is not only the second most heroic game in all the CWoD line, dethroning Mage because it didn’t wanted to be pulp anymore, but also one that gives the player more freedom about how they want to tackle the obstacles they are presented with as the splat is very versatile, the thing that you say that are imposible I have see them in person at my table and in other tables many, many times before since 1995, so no excuses, you cannot compare and deffend something that if its bad is bad, this is not a chronicle in some table, it needs fixing, like really needs fixing.
Also yes is a problem, its not by design, not in Revised, and not in W5th either.

As it is now it cannot emulate the thing it tries to emulate, it needs some tweeks here and there, it needs more flexibility, much, much more.

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If you or @jjc73 could, Id love to hear some examples of ‘favored builds’ that are exempt from either of my two earlier points. To my knowledge, you might be talking about charisma and intelligence builds or resolve and composure-based things. In which case you’d be only half right. Yes those builds let you do pass a majority of checks but its because again, those builds are capable of being used everywhere. Inherently, there are dozens of times more scenarios where intelligence, computer/mechanical skills and charisma/persuasion will get you want you want and pure Strength, Dexterity and Combat/Stamina only apply in certain instances. Thats just common sense. The game doesn’t have ‘favored builds’; There are just some builds/ skill sets that are just more widely applicable than others, just like real-life. Plus I’ve played the demo several times now as every auspice except Galliard and with every build and I’ve never once truly felt like my build was poorly represented. Sometimes you just don’t have the skills to do something. And remember, this is a demo of what is ostensibly a massive game. Its just the beginning. Once you get past the 3rd mission, most of your skills and stats, aside from certain low level attributes, can be upgraded high. I think you’re reaching for an argument because maybe you failed a few skill checks or didnt feel like enough like an everyman.

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And because this just occured to me, I also wanna touch on your comment about Vtm:Night Road,

  1. Night Road DEFINITELY had a favored build. One specifically- Charisma. I don’t know if you and I played the same game but I challenge you to do 1 playthrough as a Vampire with heavy charisma, Manipulation and Composure and then a second playthrough using anything else (no Disciplines). You will see the difference. A Ventrue charisma build is easy mode. Just try and play a combat-focused lasombra or tremere and see how quickly you start failing skill checks. And again, just like with this game, its like that for a reason; There are just more instances where charisma and social skills are applicable. Theres no other way to say that.
  2. Night Road seems to have not had the issue because it gave out like 10 different “Get out of Jail Free” cards that heavily deviated from the accepted canon (not that thats a bad thing or that I’m complaining). You, a 20-something-year-old neonate, were able to learn disciplines from other elders casually and use them as if you had them all along. And then you were able to amplify those disciplines quite easily with a few exp points. Furthermore, with the DLC that game had, all you had to do was feel really strongly about a few things, like “Kiss up to the Elders” vs “Screw the Elders!”, and you got boatloads of exp FOR FREE and like 2 super easy side missions which again, gave you free item boosters, money and more exp. By the end of the game, you end up being the most widely skilled vampire this millennium. So of course Night Road was different. You were given the world in the palm of your hands and then some. Contrast that to WTA, you are a Nation (if even that) of bittersweet tired warriors fighting, and arguably losing, a war so much bigger than them that they are collectively suffering from major depression and psychosis. (Harano). But even this game has its own Get out of Jail free card: How many times has “I switch to my X form to give me …” or any other choice without a skill listed been used to bypass skill checks? Or where the character literally has the option of not saying anything? Or the Gifts? OR how even if you DO fail your skill checks nothing actually happens to you besides some flavor text that makes you feel bad? Havent died once on Iron wolf mode.
  3. Part of the whole appeal of VTM is that the Kindred are basically swiss army knives. Their excellence in infiltrating sociopolitical and socioeconomic infrastructure give them unparalleled power amongst mankind and wherever that fails, they have an almost unusually diverse and exotic range of effects from their Vitae ranging from subtle and forceful mind control, superhuman speed, durability, strength, senses, something so similar to magic but with no Paradox (the thing that keeps mages in check), and some can literally talk to animals and teleport through shadows. Assuming all of that fails, they can call upon any number of connections and allies to do whatever they cannot. And Night Road shows this well because the MC basically, through their connections, gain a bunch of skills that carry them through the game casually. Plus, in Kindred society, you are encouraged to build as many skills as possible because you will live for centuries if you’re smart and they can thrive anywhere where there is people. Counter that with the Garou, who for the most part NEED places of wilderness and nature to exist, killed most other Fera that could’ve been their real allies and burned bridges with the few that still exist, are themselves very limited in their skill set and abilities, have their own society and set purpose (Living Weapons) and they cant seem to shake the fact that the world isn’t what it used to be on top of that species-wide major depression and psychosis I mentioned earlier.

TLDR; Youre talking about two very different games that express mechanics in very different ways with very different themes and overall setting and i really don’t think its fair to compare to two. Also, Night Road is a full game with DLC and this is a demo.
And while Night Road did a great job of bringing forth that power fantasy of being great at everything, with the way the demo alone plays, I have every reason to believe we’ll have that same power fantasy by the end.

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We as humans tend to defer to people that know or done something already. Because the try when no knowledge of skill would be lucky to not ruin it further.

One scene:
One: Yelling at people, the two sons and the realtor are doing things as a favor, not needed to do so, act of kindness. Not being aggressive here is reasonable for that. Also, skill check: 1 dot cause dont have either Intimidate or Persuausion. Other option was to fix it, but without the intelligence or skill, you’d end up breaking it worse, skill check 1 cause Intelligence 1. Causing more problems there. The option that IS IN CHARACTER to do is use survival tactics to stay warm, skill check for that was again, 5 dots.

Which would you do?! Be serious here within the characters mind of what I gave you.

Now by playing to my strengths, twice over, I get cut from using the wolf. That is serious punishment for playing to my strengths but not the strengths the ST wanted. Not. The. Players. Fault.

This is only one example of many where others are all 1s and were reasonable when Im anti-social in social positioning.

My biggest issue is.

I’ve lost wolf playing to MY strengths!! … twice before going back to caern.

To answer other person: Bone Gnawers are a stealth group, and do what I kept choosing to do. Reasons they seem anti-wolf, when they not.

I do prefer Bastet, ravens, snakes and Ursala over wolves. Love the Bastet most.

The Night Road. I have to reopen. Pretty certain I played the charismatic type or manipulative type. Played it once. It was ok. I think. I dont recall it well as not a favorite. Several I play are charismatic types cause history tells me, thats the best choice for any game. That is a problem, yep.

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I’m going to be honest, Night Road (and the other CoG VtM games that aren’t Out for Blood) failed to click for me for exactly this reason - I’m starting so up on the power scale that I never once feel threatened or at risk of actually failing anything of consequence*.

So I’m very glad to hear that this game is less cruise-y (the demo link doesn’t work for me for some reason, so I’m waiting for the full release on Steam). :slight_smile:

*I actually talked to Marquis about this on Twitter and he told me that a lot of people found the game extremely hard and kept losing, whereas I cruised through it with zero difficulty or even sense of danger

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Say @JBento what’s your go to auspices or tribes when playing this ?

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I’ve never played Werewolf, and I can’t play the demo, so I don’t have a go-to. I’m going in completely blind. I’ll have to see what piques my interest when the game comes out. :slight_smile:

I mean, meh. The game will come out and I’ll play it then, and in the meantime I have a huge backlog on Steam, so. :slight_smile:

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Ouch that sucks

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Really good explanation of the differences between vamps and the wolves. Before night road, i wasn’t at all familiar with WoD. So when this demo came out i binged the lore for like a week cause i hadn’t a clue what was happening. You managed to summarize it in a few lines of text.

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I dont know if you already tried this but deleting all cache and cookies from all CoG websites as a whole fixed it for me.

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Doesn’t that also erase dash saves?

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it MIGHT but i am not completely certain. If that’s a concern, usually these demo games and Washington are available on mobile if you’re cool with playing it on your phone or whatever else you use

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Yall felt high on the power scale during night road?
I felt like a basic vampire serf, sure I have a trick or two up my sleeve but a dude with a shotgun hiding in a corner, as per the world of darkness rule, is still a major threat.
Maybe its just me knowing the higher levels of WOD but we’re not that strong imo. Its just everyone around us isnt that high
A werewolf in any of the vampire games would have been a game over, same with a mage, etc

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I had super durability and super speed. A dude with a shotgun hiding in the corner isn’t a speedbump, let alone a majot threat.

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There was a major leader of the camarilla, several hundred year old vampire with a mastery of durability discipline, who thought the same thing
Didnt save him from buckshot
Thjere is a reason they fear humans

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Is it because they’re dumb and they suck? Because, again, there were literally zero points in Night Road in which I DIDN’T think “I have this 117.3% under control”.

EDIT: Contrast with Out for Blood, in which I spent pretty much the entire time thinking “I make a misstep here and I’m lunch”.

(to be perfectly fair, though, OfB is the second-hardest CoG game to get the ending how I want it that I’ve ever played, so)

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