Veterans: what has changed about Choice of Games and the forum over the years?

General
22

I am going to push back on Hex’s and CoGZealot’s posts a bit …

What they are talking about has existed from day one … the way we handle it as a community has changed.

And this led to a lot of problematic behavior. Behavior that leads to harm for the individual or the community is not behavior we should tolerate.

Anyone that would like to participate in this process should be welcomed to read the demo and then provide actionable feedback.

Actionable Feedback is feedback that an author is able to used to make their game better. Opinions that express value judgements and that direct the ongoing discussion away from the author’s work should not be allowed.

Circular argument and sniping back and forth should be flagged to hell and back because it is wasteful, hateful and toxic.
The following types of posting have been cracked down on:
- Rudeness
- Ad hominem attacks, especially name calling
- Extreme expressions of anger
- Responding to a post’s tone instead of its actual content
- Engaging in Circular Argumentation
- Sniping

There is good, actionable feedback and then there is non-actionable, ignorable feedback - someone expressing negative feedback focused on a person’s writing is often an example of the latter.

Expressing your opinion on how awful a writer’s writing is doesn’t help that author … they know their writing sucks. Most authors suffer from imposter syndrome and low self-esteem anyways, so your beat down won’t do anything that they are already doing to themselves.

The author is not in control of your feedback – you are! Why should an author sit there and try to figure out your reasons… you should express those in a way that the author can then take that feedback and improve… that is on you, not the author to do.

Most authors do need to work on accepting criticism – it is painful to have to do so.

I also believe most authors here do a pretty good job as it is… it is the fans within an author’s fandom that need to practice more tolerance.

Most of us moderators (and Leaders) and staff try our best to help individuals when such intolerance rears its ugly head, but often we are not called in, until there are other more immediate problems.

If you are experiencing a gang mentality trying to intimidate you from providing actionable feedback – let a Leader, Moderator, or Staff know before things spiral out of control and off the guardrails.

All of us are open to PMs to discuss things one on one or out of the public’s eye… remember to let us to help, if we can, before things require such drastic things like suspensions for other issues brought on by frustration.

43 Likes
24

I’m gonna have to say that barely anything about the users has changed. While I noticed the moderator team basically got overhauled after they… well, didn’t do a good job earlier before.

There also used to be a no limit to a thread so if you had a very popular work and left it open, you were bound to get over 10k comments on there but now they don’t do it anymore and I’m glad for it because it can become quite a clusterf_ck, ya know?

3 Likes
25

…I understand where you are coming from, but I wasn’t (at least I don’t think I was) talking about feedback or attacking others.

1 Like
26

I’m not sure if I’m a veteran, I officially joined in 2013 but was lurking for a good few years before that. Back then Vendetta and the first unnatural games were some of the most popular WIPs, it’s crazy to me that I found this site when I wasn’t even in high school and now I’m legally allowed to drink

8 Likes
27

I have definitely seen cultural shifts in general (not just here) towards the definition of personality and identity around liking an item of popular culture, leading to seeing any sort of criticism of that item as a personal attack on the individual.

8 Likes
28

Exactly, Now any critic of the offering of alternatives is considering an attack. And an insult. Any opinion out of what the fandom considers the opinion is an attack and is replied with “You don’t have right to talk about this because you aren’t a fan.” Or is directly accused of harming the environment
When the game released and people in bad reviews say exactly the same I said and could have been addressed. The fans response is that the public is wrong . an It is a terrible harmful cultural shifting when is not literature or games anymore when enthusiastic people do their best to help the authors to reach their full potential.
Now is becoming hooligans that all is perfect and any criticism is replied with hostility and a You aren’t one of us. Or even attack other writers that is the worst possible. I hope someday the forum will return to what it was , a place of discussion and focused in helping authors to improve and reaching their full potential. Publish and make a living from that.

5 Likes
29

Then, would you spell it out for me what you were trying to say?

If it means taking it to PM, so we don’t disrupt the thread, I am fine with that.

This is exactly how I see the forum, now as opposed to the past where it was one snipefest after another because someone insisted that the author write about incest (or something just as disruptive), or adding a pet theory they have into the author’s work…

Perhaps you are so micro-focused on one thread or author’s work that you lost sight of the entire forum.

9 Likes
30

Well, Except one or two exceptions it is in my opinion how all forum works reason I probably didn’t have participate in a wip in a year or so. But that is only my opinion probably based on the fact most people on forums don’t have a positive image of me.

I have to admit that the authors themselves are very supportive and gentle in general and makes this community a special place. The fact that I think this community is becoming worse doesn’t mean that I think is a bad place.

2 Likes
31

I think more of the forum have a positive image of you now then 6+ years ago.

3 Likes
32

Then hell if don’t show it. But that is derail the thread lol. I am not good in sugarcoating things sorry. Probably there are fancier words to say the truth.

33

Public opinion of Poison_mara May have changed over the years, but Mara hasn’t. Always the first to give direct criticism in an effort to make improvements to your work, Mara speaks English remarkably well as a second language. Don’t change, Mara - we love you just the way you are.

As for the forum, it has always had rules and limits to what can be said. I am not sure that the Religion thread would flow as freely as it did back in the day any more, but topics are always being pushed in an inclusive direction. You could argue that that is bottling up negative emotions, but I’d prefer to think of it as educating the masses.

The biggest change for me is the scope of the forum. It has grown so much in size and the number of titles in creation has escalated. That is great to see!

16 Likes
34

This is probably one of the biggest issues that has come up over the years. An author could post a WIP about war and death and the first questions would be about the ROs. Any game that that is also deemed to not have “satisfactory” romance is immediately trashed without regards to how well it does in other areas

23 Likes
35

I’m a lurker in the forum and have also been away from CS for a long time. I didn’t even know of poison_mara until my returning to lurking at the forum in recent years. My very first impression of poison_mara was very negative, as coincidentally I only saw your comments where you only had something negative to say, and repeatedly insist on them (ex. I don’t want to play goodie-two-shoes, I don’t want the romance options that’s being offered, I don’t want feature X even if others want it, etc.). But as I read more varied kinds of threads where you do have positive things to say, like mutual support for writing struggles, and showing vulnerability about depression (and other issues) and being empathetic toward others in similar boat, and even here where you sandwich critical opinion with positive comment, then I begin to trust that you are not just full of negativity. I may be projecting as I have experienced similar kind of distrust from people before, but I learned that it may be because I don’t say positive things more often (not sugarcoating, just I felt unnecessary to do so since “they are already getting compliments from others”, or that it’s insincere if I don’t really care about a certain aspect that could be complimented) and only say negative things (maybe because I want to provide a contrary opinion, not out of spite/hate, but hey, diversity of thought?) that I make people feel like my intentions are hateful. In a way it’s true that I only got back what I put in to the world.

It might be due to the same reason, that giving positive affirmation feels “unnecessary” (or is offtopic) when it’s assumed the recipient already knows or is receiving them elsewhere (from veterans like Eiwynn, andymwhy, etc.)… Then the recipient sees mostly negative feedback (critiques or retaliatory comments). And negative feedback often stands out more.

As for the topic, I see growth in diverse subject matters and (maybe?) lived experience portrayals in WIPs (lower barrier of entry means marginalized creators have more chance/means to represent themselves), more minority NPCs :heart:, increased willingness to just try to start a project (for non-coders and minority writers), more great writing :heart_eyes: , but I also understand that the growing pain (higher volume of extremist views, etc.) is inevitable. Thanks to CS staff and community moderators for making and maintaining this space. :sparkling_heart:

9 Likes
36

Go ham!

37

This is the biggest change I’ve noticed. I don’t post much on the forums anymore, most of the fan art is on tumblr and discussions tend to happen in discord.

I will say the moderation team has grown and become more active over the years. I remember being in a flame war once where now the rule is just “flag and don’t interact.” It’s probably for the best.

12 Likes
38

i, for one, am rather grateful on the integration of social media as there are times where i am able to interact more with the author who become inactive in the forum due to various reasons.

4 Likes
39

Things seem to be nicer and more civilized since I returned to the forum, but that might just be because losing the mod status means I don’t see the ugly underbelly of the forum anymore. Wish there were more WiPs that match my interests around, but that’s just a matter of preference :woman_shrugging:

4 Likes
40

Been a member of the forums since 2013, though I rarely do more than lurk for personal reasons. Been playing since 2011. Biggest changes are probably…

  1. WIPs being playable and having the most active community around them, probably the biggest change. It exposes me to a lot of stuff I wouldn’t have gotten to experience since many of these projects die before completion.

  2. Increasing length and mechanical complexity. The games themselves have gotten longer, more in depth, and the systems involved are much more refined than the older games.

  3. Conversly, the number of ‘expiremental’ games that try to do something really new and unique with CS has gone down, a lot of the earlier ones are radically different from the ‘standardized’ versions we have now. Last I remember was the game that tried to integrate sound.

Nostalgia wise I always have a giggle while playing ZE because it reminds me of the old thread, especially Mara’s unrelenting desire to kill Emma

28 Likes
41

And I hate Discord so much, combines the negatives of forums with the negatives of live chat or conversation without any of the upsides and means I can really only talk to other Europeans on there…which kinda defeats the purpose of the internet for me.

11 Likes
42

I lurked on the forums quite a bit before starting work with CoG - I even made a couple of WIPs though not on the forum - so maybe I count as a veteran… Something I’ve definitely noticed and been part of is more CoG authors being active on the forums which is great. When I was first lurking on here, there weren’t nearly so many!

I’ve also enjoyed creating and seeing more CoG WIP threads - I think it’s a really nice development and that both authors and players can get a lot out of it. It may not be right for every author but I’ve personally found it really useful.

17 Likes