The Wayhaven Chronicles: Book Three (WIP -FINAL DEMO)

Hosted Games
334

Everyone is ragging on A for being repressed, but remember, they’re 900 years old. They were born just after the goddamn Norman conquest of England. Being 900 and also born in the medieval period means you’re going to be exposed to a lot of death. I can only guess the number of people they’ve liked who they end up outliving. Imagine losing your family but like 20 times in one lifetime.

At that point, there’s really only two options: snap or repress. So they repress. I personally believe they’re worried that if they fall in love with the MC, the MC will die. And it will only hurt them.

Some people get tired of life at like fifty. They’re 900.

46 Likes
335

From a reader perspective, I don’t think he’s playing with the MC’s feelings either. However, from a roleplaying perspective, the MC doesn’t have much to go on and, unfortunately, from their POV it can–and sometimes does–appear that A is just screwing with their head. Furthermore, A has to know that they’re hurting the MC with their actions and words, unless they’re just horribly obtuse and clueless.

I think one thing that may cause this to play differently for me (and, perhaps, others) is that I don’t metagame. My characters don’t know what I know–they’re operating from their limited viewpoint. This means they don’t see the LI POVs, which could help mitigate some misunderstandings, and they don’t know, for certain, the LI’s true intent. All they have to go on is what they see, hear, and experience. And my MC’s experience with A has, for lack of a better term, sucked.

I saw someone else state that they’re glad their characters are all logical and perfect and understand everything. That’s great. I don’t make perfect characters, because people are always flawed in some way or another. They are affected by their experiences, both past and present (and yes, I create an entire backstory for my MCs because, as I’ve said before, I view these as RPs and I want characters that actually feel ‘real’ and aren’t just nameless, faceless, things I plug in to get the most angst and have a perfect run through a game.

My point is that many “people” would not react well to A’s attitude. They would not appreciate the mixed signals and it would seem to them to be A screwing with them. At the very least, A would come across as extremely self-centered and demeaning (who the hell is he to decide what’s best for the MC? and why are his feelings the only ones that matter, especially given his supposed care for the MC?). Sure, we know the answers to these questions, but the MCs do not. To me, and to the characters I’ve created in an effort to find one that works with him, the bold choices with A come off as creepy stalkerish behavior (hitting on someone who clearly isn’t into them) and the shy choices don’t fit.

That’s why I think more choices like the one in the demo (Give a pained frown. “I’d be better without you always doing this.”) could help the situation for some MCs.

It’s not about attacking A. It’s not about thinking A is horrible. It’s simply about giving feedback (which is the point of this thread, yes?) to the author that that particular choice was something I (and several others I’ve spoke with) would like to see more of and, perhaps, make those choices a bit more intense. Because while A has had a rough life and whatever, the MC is not a kickball and should be allowed to call A out when A says or does something to hurt them instead of just being forced to passively accept such treatment or use the opportunity to remind A that they want to get into their pants.

18 Likes
336

While I see your point,you do not need to metagame to know any of this:

By rough life,do you mean watching all their friends and family wither and die, living through some of the worst points in history, and for at least 750 years having little to no friends?

While I can see you are giving feedback,there are better ways of doing it than calling a character emotionally abusive.

15 Likes
337

Well, from what the MC learned in book 2, A doesn’t have friends outside of the Agency (or much outside of UB). That is a choice, not a requirement. But yes, that’s part of what has made A’s life rough. The thing is, it doesn’t justify their behavior towards others.

If I have a rough day, I might be a complete and utter bitch to people who approach me. That’s on me, not on them. They don’t know what kind of day I had and it’s not their fault, regardless. It’s the same thing with A. A is responsible for A’s behavior, not the MC. The MC can sympathize, if A allows it (but they don’t, of course), but just because A’s had a bad time doesn’t give them the right to hurt the MC. Personal responsibility, yeah?

If the shoe fits… :woman_shrugging:

Intent or not, to my MC (and to me as a reader of the my MC’s story with A), it’s emotionally abusive. Leading people on is not good behavior, whether or not it’s intended. Giving mixed signals, whether it’s done with the intent of harm or not, results in the emotional mistreatment of the object of said behavior. Sugar coating it doesn’t change the facts.

Edited to add: The funny part is that the choice I mentioned acknowledges the damage A is doing to the MC’s psyche (without coming right out and calling him an ass for hurting the MC), hence the “pained” frown and the MC’s annoyance at the entire situation. The MC walks off, clearly fed up. So it’s not like I’m saying something that the demo doesn’t recognize, even if it wasn’t as direct as I prefer.

7 Likes
338

You seem to have missed my point.That’s probably on me for not being clear.My point was that A has lived through all of this:

And you brushed that off as having ‘a rough life and whatever’

There is a significant difference from 1 day and 900 years,so it’s understandable that A is emotionally shut off.

7 Likes
339

I didn’t brush it off, and I never said A doesn’t have reasons for being emotionally repressed. Everyone has reasons for being the way they are, but everyone also has their own trials and pains. How A deals with the pain of life is their choice. N deals with it differently, as do F and M.

The thing is, you can’t control other people and you can’t control the world around you, all you can control is yourself and your response to it. A chose to become closed off and turn into who he is, just as he chooses to keep holding himself back from the MC and keeping them at arm’s length (while simultaneously, reaching out sporadically and acting like he wants more).

Yes, he’s a good guy under it all, but no matter what we go through, we are responsible for our own behavior and how we treat others. And his treatment of the MC with the hot and cold is wrong and unfair to the MC. Just because the MC hasn’t lived 900 years and seen wars doesn’t mean that they don’t have their own pains (hell, Bobby should count for a big one!), nor does it mean that it’s acceptable for A to jerk the MC around, be it intentional or not.

Honestly, I don’t understand why everyone is so defensive about people wanting more choices in a choice game. If you don’t want to use them, then don’t.

15 Likes
340

I don’t know about anyone else,but I have no problem about you wanting more choices, however, I am annoyed about you calling A an emotional abuser.

13 Likes
341

I not picking sides but technically that what A is doing playing Mc emotions Hot and Cold

5 Likes
342

Well, as far as my MC is concerned, it’s true. Furthermore, as stated above, the demo acknowledges the damage A is doing to the MC with their behavior.

Besides, I’d hope in the overall scheme of the world, you can live with someone saying something that annoys you. If I fell apart every time someone said something that annoyed me, I’d have been dead by now!

Seriously, just please try to remember that people’s opinions of a fictional character are not an attack on you. People interpret things different ways, that’s just life. Better free thought than a bunch of mindless Borg. And I think you and have beaten this dead horse long enough, so I’m bowing out of the conversation with you, since it has now deteriorated into “I don’t like your opinion.”

7 Likes
344

Idk if I’d go as far as calling A’s behavior abusive. But I’m also not gonna tell someone else they CAN’T see it that way simply because I don’t.

I DO think that, at minimum, A should treat MC respectfully/as a valued member of the team, ESPECIALLY in front of the other team members, whether he’s grappling with his feelings or not.

I ALSO think this conversation is just spiraling out of control at this point. Particularly when people start trying to tell other people what abuse is/is not without knowing about their life experiences. But… sips tea

15 Likes
345

I think the tone makes the music.
No offense but there are situations when opinions are presented as facts - “this is how it is!”
It doesn’t sit well with some and that’s when other’s get defensive.

I think the point is that you have made a decision on A being a :eggplant:
That’s fine and I hope you find more joy with F and M.

As for the “damage” being done - there’s no ‘damage’ done. It’s a developing relationship in one way or another. If I would have been ‘damaged’ every time someone would have acted the way Adam does or similarly, I would have been done with life a long time ago. Are they always behaving appropriately - no, they’re not. But neither is M. Constant sexual pressure hardly seems respectful or professional - yet nobody seems to have an issue with that.
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy M’s route - but they’re hardly innocent when it comes to respectful behavior. Neither is F - with the constant quips and criticisms and getting into everyone’s business.
A lot of people seem to have honed in on A as the main target and I think it’s just getting a bit tiresome but maybe that’s just me.

And let’s not forget, that it is also our detective’s choice to pursue - despite A clearly sending mixed messages or even outright pushing the MC away. So - at no point is A encouraging the MC but the MC does so either way. If that’s the choice - then yeah, this MC will have to deal with it and the issues coming along with it.

Also - having a certain character/personality is not a choice. You don’t choose to have a bubbly personality or to be more severe about situations. You don’t choose to be an emotional personality - you just are. Sure, you can attempt to change certain aspects of modify your behavior in certain situations - we all do that, during work or when dealing with authorities for example - but that’s not how we are otherwise.

Either way - I made my point and strongly disagree with your notions. As such, I’ll leave it at that and will refrain from further engagement. Agree to disagree.

On another note - I had asked Sera about the bounty.
I was severely confused, as to why the bounty was seemingly in Echolian, when the Trappers and supernaturals/rogues seem to be on totally opposite sides. Trappers seem to be mainly/solely human - so how and why do they know Echolian? Why would they risk setting supernaturals onto the MC, when their blood could be worth more than the bounty?

She says it’ll be answered in Book 3, but would love to hear some of your ideas as to what is going on.
Could it be a trap? The rogues setting it up to make the Trappers the main target of the agency, while trying to get something else done in the background?

31 Likes
346

This is something I agree with, but in my opinion, if someone feels this way about somebody else, then there is not much point on pursuing them.

Now, talking as a player and not the Detective or anything else. I think us, as players, need to accept that some times we can’t romance every RO. For what I have read in previous posts, you and some others would like choices to call him out on all these things he pulls and be done with it (while waiting for him to make the next move).

However, I think the characters staying true to their personality is more important than adapting to the player in a way that would alter this. While some changes can be of course made in any character, I think that at this point of the story, giving the Detective the choices to tell him off and cut off any interactions would force A to be entirely out of character.

At this point, if the Detective did this, A would probably accept this and see it as the best course of action, thus stepping back and not attempting anything again, probably being happy (even if totally heartbroken, but building back up his iron walls) that the Detective has the common sense and the resolve to step back, unlike him.

And please, don’t take this as an attack or anything! It really isn’t my intention to come off that way, but I simply can not see the changes you suggest for A’s route working in a way that would make sense.

Edit: Let me add one more thing, while I think that being too direct about his behavior would not fit in this route, I do think that some options to question him and tell him this treatment hurts you could be perfectly valid, however, I think if the Detective stops trying all together, then so will A. This route is one in which the Detective is the driving force, if MC stops doing this, then there is no route to play.

19 Likes
347

I agree with this.
I think if the MC would give the signal that they’re done - A would retreat. They’ve done it for 800+ years and while it would hurt them more, they would still do it. That - along with Sanja’s vision, would likely even be somewhat of a relief for them.

And yes, having options in telling them that their behavior is frustrating or hurtful is fine - but again, the tone makes the music, I suppose. If one would go along with the lines “OMG A, why are you such a douche? Stop your abuse!” - they’d do exactly that. They’d withdraw further and further and avoid the MC as much as possible.

Anyway, that’s it from me on this topic - seriously :sweat_smile:
I am kinda over the A bashing, I suppose.

21 Likes
348

I… I totally missed this detail! :open_mouth:

I am trying to wrack my brain finding some reasoning behind this and I am coming up with not much. Umm… I guess it can be a trap? Perhaps it’s a means to an end to force MC into an specific situation in which they are targeted by both Supernaturals and Humans.

Also… perhaps the Supernatural rogue leader might be working with them… if the theories of that leader being our aunt are correct, perhaps it’s all part of a plot to get her hands on them! It would be interesting if the rogues are actually handling Trappers business behind closed doors.

3 Likes
349

Didn’t intend to respond to all of this, since it’s more of the same, but felt it was necessary.

I have repeatedly said it’s my opinion and that it seem to me and to my MC before making statements. How much more would you like from me to make it clear that it’s my opinion, not fact? Should I preface every word with “this is my opinion” in bold caps to as not to perturb those who dislike my opinion? The defensiveness, IN MY OPINION (does that work for you?) comes from the fact that some do not like my opinion. And, honestly, that’s their problem, not mine.

I beg to differ. There is damage each time A flips hot and cold. Damage doesn’t have to be a permanent and irreparable gaping wound. It builds up over time (my opinion, but in nature this claim becomes fact). It’s akin to chipping away at stone. Sure, it’s not noticeable at first, but the repeated chipping takes its toll. The same is true for human interactions (my opinion). Hurt someone enough times and it starts to wear. Is that not the point others were attempting to make with excusing A because of living 900 years and experiencing pain?

Yes, it’s a budding relationship, if you want to call it that. I don’t. It’s a “possible relationship” in the making, the way I see it. And it’s fragile, like a flower that is beginning to grow. What A is doing is essentially vacillating between showing it tender care and spraying it with RoundUp (for those who don’t know, it’s an herbicide that will kill pretty much anything in your yard). So yeah, for some MCs, what A is doing is damaging not only to this budding relationship, but to the MC as well. Again, this is my OPINION.

The thing is, with M, the MC can continually say “no” to the sex. They can keep pushing the desire for “more” with them. With F, I think (I honestly don’t know because F cracks me up and I don’t pay attention to the choices that don’t reflect how my MC responds to them) there are likely choices that can make clear the MC’s feelings on the matter. But with A, the demo choice to which I have referred is the first time I’ve seen (in my OPINION) the MC able to call A out on their behavior.

And that’s fine. Again, and I feel like I have typed this so many times the keys are wearing out, I am simply saying that SOME of us just want more choices in how to respond to A, choices much like the one in the demo! That’s it! That’s all! It might not be choices you would use, and given how many people attack anyone who thinks A isn’t perfect, I suppose they wouldn’t either, but some of us want to play the route and have some choices that fit our MCs and also reflect their feelings on A’s hot/cold crap. So it’s probably prudent for those of us who want to see more of those choices to speak up. If they can take the heat, anyway.

Personality is not a choice. How you treat people is. What you say to them is a choice. Whether you push them away is a choice. So yes, in my opinion, A’s treatment of the MC is a choice and, since they are giving mixed signals, it’s a choice that seems to me and my mc to be emotionally abusive.

I think you and I have also reached the point where further discussion is counterproductive, so yeah… agree to disagree.

I think I’ve said this before, even above, but I’ll add it here: we already got an option that somewhat reflects what I was saying, which was my point. I know it wouldn’t work to tell A to suck it, because they’d just go off and leave the MC alone altogether, but more choices like in the demo, where the MC can tell A to “stop” would work. Especially if, when A plays dumb, the MC gets the chance to outright state the problem (from the text, I couldn’t tell if he was playing dumb or is just too emotionally backward to understand what the MC was saying).

10 Likes
350

Yeah, I was thinking about that as well, but Trappers hunt supernaturals. They’re basically slavers. Rogues already refused the rules of the agency… so why in the world would they cooperate?

There can be few groups that hate each other more than Trappers and rogues.

Though - maybe it’s not that clear cut. Didn’t Book 2 mention that Trappers also ‘sell’ captured agents to supernaturals?

This is all a bit confusing.

2 Likes
351

It was a general statement.
And as I said, I’m refraining from a further discussion of this topic.

2 Likes
352

They’ll sell to anyone. An excerpt from book2:

“Trappers are humans,” Adam sneers.

“Humans who are aware of the supernatural world and want to use supernaturals for their own gain,” Nate continues in a calmer manner.

“Usually monetary gain,” Mason comments. “They’re a pain in the ass.”

Rebecca steps closer. “Mason’s right. They’ve been a thorn in the Agency’s side for as long as humans and supernaturals have coexisted. They steal Agency equipment and even agents to gain information on supernaturals.”

“Or sell those agents to the highest bidder,” Mason adds.

“But they’ll sell them to humans or supernaturals. So at least they don’t discriminate,” Felix says as though to lighten the conversation.

1 Like
353

Yeah, I think they do! It is my impression that the Trappers are happy to deal with anyone that will pay them. They seem to be more power/money oriented than anything else, and while they do trade on Supernaturals, I think a group like the Rogues could be ruthless enough to trade their own people (as in, other supernaturals) to achieve their goals.

With what Falk says about this Rogue leader, I think she will be more than capable of doing as such!

This I can see, but with your wording on all the previous posts, the impression I got from you is that telling A to suck it is exactly what you wanted. Bear in mind that I don’t know you, so I take what you say at face value and didn’t interpret it as wild exaggeration from your part.

1 Like
354

Plot twist: The Detective put the bounty on themselves, hoping they would be captured, just so their RO of choice has to rescue them in a dramatic, and romantic, way.

Especially since one of them seems to need a little encouragement. eyes A

13 Likes