@Random Thank you, ill go look it up
@Random Boys can wear makeup too, and not all girls wear makeup. Admittedly I’ve always tended to hang with a fairly alternative crowd so my experiences may be somewhat skewed. I’d be a little annoyed at a game that reinforced gender stereotypes and had boys playing sport while girls went shopping. Admittedly I find both of those activities a complete yawnfest though.
In the UK the law is that it is illegal for teachers to engage in sexual activity with pupils at their school aged under 18. I’m not sure about dating, I think that would at least be a fireable offence.
And no. Teachers are in a position of responsibility. If a student flirts with them, or comes on to them, it’s their job to be the mature, responsible adult and say no. If they say yes, they are a predator.
At my school the teacher was a paedophile. He was prosecuted for it, spent time in jail, got released on good behaviour, broke his release conditions and got sent back again. One of his victims killed themselves. A friend of mine was attacked during our lunch break and it was this paedophile teacher who dealt with it.
It just makes me angry.
Your principal sounds like he was really inappropriate. He does sound creepy.
@FairyGodfeather I know, I’m not saying that all boys act that way, but I’m saying how most boys don’t and how most girls spend more time than boys with makeup and similar stuff like that. What I’m saying is that the activities and the thoughts that girls usually have differs with boys, and if this is a game that solely delves into that kind of things, then genders may or may not make the gender’s plotlines very different from each other.
@FairyGodfeather Sorry about that stuff and your friend. I think people who sexually force people into sexual acts against their wills should be locked away like an animal. I feel like rape is a harsher offense than murder in the 1st degree.
I think guys in modern day and age are kinda more female-ish from what I heard just my opinion cause guys do wear make up and the skinniest jeans they can find, and have highlights and eyeliner and it’s considered acceptable which I dont get and can still be considered straight somehow, I guess it’s a style but I really dont understand the fashion of wanting to look androgynistic, unless there is a good reason besides style.
@2Ton I disagree with that. However this isn’t the right place to discuss the topic.
I’m also going to disagree about your idea of guys being ‘femaleish’ since I think that’s a rather gender-essentialist statement. There’s been plenty of occassions in the past where the men have worn makeup and powder and wigs and codpieces and extravagant clothing and been very much clothes horses.
I don’t see why it shouldn’t be acceptable for men to wear makeup, if they so please, and for women to not wear it, if that’s their preference. It’s about choice. And whether or not they wear makeup, and you’ll note most people on television do, all those buff action heroes, they wear makeup, all those politicians, they will wear makeup for television appearances. It’s a little mentioned thing, but it happens.
Now gender-expression has very little to do with sexuality. And I’m going off on a tangent and derailing this thread. Just wearing makeup doesn’t make anyone gay, the only thing that does is being attracted to the same sex, and not attracted to the opposite.
I’m derailing though so I’ll stop.
Alright, let me start by addressing the topic title for this thread: I’ve seen a lot of very good explanations offered by the others here, and I think any one of them is workable. Preferably, I’d say studying should have its’ place (for the sake of roleplay) and it’s optimal if it is somehow *interesting.* How that can be accomplished is a good question, but some feedback and looking around might help give ideas, and betaing can see how it plays out. That being said, I can understand why it might be preferable to avoid it from a writing POV, but I still think even if you don’t want to give us a history of WWI you should at least accommodate the “nerd characters” or find a good explanation for why even they wouldn’t be studying.
Now, beyond that I say Peace! Peace!
I’ve seen a lot of valid points on all sides regarding issues like the dress up and the teacher romance, so let me just weigh in to give my points.
Personally, I believe that we should allow cosmetics and other fashion choices to be used by either party, regardless of what said cosmetic or fashion choice is. Pragmatically, I figure this miiiight cut down on time (since you don’t have to stick notices left and right blocking one gender from-say- putting on makeup). Beyond that, I think it also allows greater flexibility and inclusiveness, and *not just* strictly in terms of gender or sexuality.
What if you’re a (male) history nerd or drama club star who gushes over the Baroque and Enlightenment eras and in doing so wears immense amounts of makeup and really frilly/ornate clothes, for instance? I’d say you should- where possible- give enough leeway to allow the player to make up choices like that, or read those motivations into the game.
Now, regarding the Teacher Romance, I feel this is a very serious topic, and I can absolutely see why this should be broached cautiously. In part, I say this because both sides of the coin are right, and I personally have seen it. On the one hand, one of my Math teachers in High School (they were in an odd sort of co-teaching position) was arrested for cheating on his wife with a student. I actually knew all of the people involved because his wife was actually a Science teacher at Wilcox, and I was taught by all three of them. I had no idea he would do something like this, and his wife and co-teacher were absolutely *devastated* by it. To this day, I have no idea why he did it, because his wife is an absolutely wonderful person like said other teacher (and frankly I thought he was the same until that happened), and I find it incredible he even thought it was worth it.
Of course, then The school followed soon afterwards as the usual spread of doubt, accusations, and controversy ripped through things.
I’m not even going to start on the pedophiles and the other issues.
On the other hand, I’ve also talked with other people on other matters similar to it. Heck, to give you an example, my latest Business Law professor in College spoke about how his Father was his Mother’s professor during College, and how they married *right* after she graduated. Suffice it to say, he didn’t pull any blows about how incredibly *OFF* this is, but he also noted that they apparently enjoyed a very loving and sweet relationship until he died shortly after said Law Prof was born.
So I can definitely see both parts here, and the other mundane issues that pop out. Which is why I feel that both sides need to be addressed.
Now, personally, as something of an RPer (whose major RP is actually a school setting slapped in the middle of an unholy 30 Year’s War/WWI/WWII/Cold War mix, featuring a lot of students, professors, staff, and non-school characters)? I personally would be supportive of a teacher romance choice being implemented, or even more than one depending on the scope of the game. However, it would above all other things have to be implemented carefully. The abuse that has occurred in situations like this is *not* imaginary, and even if it is consentual it’s still *at absolute best* a morally grey area. So I’d have to say that the best way of handling that is by giving it a full treatment. This is an escapist fantasy…but on the other hand it isn’t, or at least is more than that. It’s dead serious, and not something to be taken lightly.
On one hand… yeah, whoohooo! You are getting with the hot teacher like every fantasy! On the other… you’re also breaking the rules, have to keep it secret, and probably have to look yourselves in the mirror and each other in the eye. You have to deal with the massive moral issues and dilemmas of that, and the potential for betrayal or disgrace. You treat this thing lightly or frivolously, you’re not only going to offend people (and understandably), you’re going to be hurting the game and the story overall.
So really, I’d say the best way to do this is to take a step back and plan things out. Firstly, if you’re just popping in a “Teacher Romance”, you’re not doing enough. Figure out *who* they are as characters in addition to the obvious *what* they are. Then go from there and keep them true to their personality and morals, and basically give them a depth that’s more than an inflatable toy. Then figure out how the plot will grapple with the issues it brings up (and I’d argue that while obviously any Teacher Romance or Romances in this game would be loving and/or consenting, the issue of abuse should at least be broached *somewhere* in the game).
I will not say this will make it perfectly happy go lucky or wonderful for everyone, but I do think it will show you are putting enough thought and sensitivity into the matter to avoid being tasteless and exploitative about a very twisted, very difficult subject.
At least, that is my opinion, and at least I’ve said it. I’d be interested in knowing what the others think, and I promise to listen, but it’s the least I can do.
@Turtler! I’d like to think that we’re just having a goodnatured discussion here, as opposed to being at war.
You do have some points. I was engaged in some pretty nerdy activities at school. I was on the school chess team, I represented the school for both chemistry and maths in regional competitions. I ran the computing club, I edited the school magazine, I was on the debating team, I was part of a business club. I was forever annoyed that I never got allowed to be one of the library pages, or to participate in the scrabble tournaments. I met, and socialised, with a lot of people during those activities.
The chess team in particular was fun. We never took it seriously, I think we were likely the worst team in the region, but we had a laugh, we visited different schools, and it was something to do. I never had the attention span for chess so if I couldn’t beat the other player in four moves (and I frequently could) I would generally lose.
Other than school projects, which we were forced to do as a part of a group, I don’t think I ever studied with anyone else though. For me studying was a solitary activity on the rare occassions I did it, and homework was scribbled down in my first class, generally copied from a friend’s book. I hated doing work outside of school, unless it was fun. I had a weird sense of fun though since I recall going through an entire book of maths equations because I loved the puzzles and they were better than any store-bought puzzlebook.
If there is a teacher-student romance I would like the opportunity to make that teacher lose their job and utterly destroy their life. I would like to see the fall-out and for it not to be portrayed in a positive, romantic light. I would like to see the devastation it would cause. I would like people to feel betrayed, I would like parents to be up in arms, I would like to see the shock and the horror of it. I don’t want to see it just brushed off as something romantic.
Oh and I was just thinking about Emily Short’s Bee. http://varytale.com/books/book/short-bee/info/ It’s homeschooled as opposed to at a traditional school but I think it’s an interesting take on things, especially how it does studying.
I dont see the teacher dating thing as grey area, I’m not saying just because you have feelings for someone doesnt mean it’s mean to be but I think if you feel really capable with someone it’s worth a shot since everyone is trying to find happiness. I dont think just because someone is student and the other is a teacher that automatically means their relationship is doomed to fail.
I think age has some stuff to do with it but then again no one can predict that the relationship would fail, but then again I come from a different place where I was told love doesnt discriminate against age, race, religion, height, weight, ect. I think anything goes just aslong as the two people in the relationship are mentally mature enough to be dating one another.
I’ve never dated a teacher but ive dated a couple of women who were older than me by almost a decade when I was 16 and 17, but alot of people in my family find that acceptable, I think of it as being open-minded to new experiences and learning what kinda partner I want in life but some may say im gross or immoral.
I know alot of history had men in makeup and things I know it was fashionable in places but It had more reasons besides for the sake of fashion, I understand guys wearing makeup even though im not sure why they would do that. Im not trying to come off as I think people expressing themselves is wrong but I feel that’s odd. I know there were cultures would dress like women and everything but thats cultural reasons. I just dont get when a guy dresses up as a woman for the sole purpose of style but is straight.
They have the option but im not saying a straight man cant touch make up I just have a difficulty understanding wanting to look androgynistic to the point of resembling a woman. They have that option but I dont see the reason behind a straight person doing that if it’s for the sake of style and nothing else.
If your a straight guy I assume you value your masculinity at some extent so people can tell your a guy.
Sorry to drag on like I do lately, but I would like to express my hate for makeup on anyone from female, to male. I think everyone is beautiful and dont need makeup… well unless you need it for a good reason… all about reasoning but yah I hate any thing that hides something from me. I feel like im lied too for some reason when anyone has like anything that hides the real person beneath or has modified their body in someway. I honestly find that dumb, unless there is a very good reason like a person loses a limb and gets a prosthetic one, Im all for that.
I dont like when people are already blessed with limbs and no problems whatsoever concerning their appearance and go and get plastic surgery to feel better about themselves, when there was nothing wrong, but I feel I cant like a person if they present lies to me they may not be verbal lies but still I consider them lies and I cant trust a person if they lie to me off the bat, makeup is okay I dont consider makeup a lie but I just dont like I perfer natural beauty and I hate seeing how tons of people assume they are ugly when they arent.
Also a question? will you be able to skip classes?
I went through most of high school without actually going to class or studying. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. 
Anyway, as for the makeup thing, why not just be a little vague about it? It’s perfectly acceptable for anyone to take a little extra time in the morning to focus on their appearance. No need for specifics to be involved if it all has the same effect, right?
Edit:
By the way, kids, go to class. Don’t be a delinquent.
OK, the '80s were a long time ago, but yeah, I have the same reaction: “My schooldays aren’t history! I was there!”
@2Ton: “I hate anything that hides something from me” - like clothes?
My stance is kinda’ the same, I grew up during the 80s… I was there dammit, and I don’t remember it being this landmark time as a kid. Probably because I was too busy being a jackass kid.
And I still don’t know how I feel about every time I turn on a classic rock station these days they start playing 80s rock songs. It just doesn’t feel right because I just don’t feel old enough to the point where the songs I was listening to as a kid can be considered “classic rock”. 
In any case, though, if you’re going the school route, the trick is fulfilling the various activities students experienced while attending school, and have it bear a healthy level of significance to their lives within the narrative. Personally, I was a gothy nerd, my entire time was primarily being a mousy little goth-girl with her nose in the books to excel in academia. However, my only reason for doing so was because I wanted high-marks so I could do gymnastics. That was my real passion, I wanted high-scores for my grades so I could continue doing gymnastics unimpeded, and it was dedicating myself to my school’s gymnastics program that really encompassed my life. It’s the vehicle where I met and hung out with most of my friends in school, they’re who wound up primarily being my study partners (if they shared the same class), and it’s through gymnastics with a couple other gymnasts students whom I had my first sexual experiences with.
So the various sports and/or activities one does in school can bear a heavy significance in ones life, and in part really shape who they are as a person. Naturally, there are those who got involved in sports and/or other school activities but they detached themselves from having it as a social medium. So, bearing that in mind when doing the kinda’ “high school experience” in just how much of a role the school sports and activities can have an impact on a student’s life, will be a bit of a trick, because that’s a looooooot of different aspects to write about within such a narrative, even if minimizing the choices to just a few.
Well, I think that studying is something that we don’t want to remember from school, but maybe having other activities such as sports teams and clubs would be a good option because in school, you mostly meet people through classes before you meet them.
@Havenstone I didnt mean it to that degree but now that I think of it… Yes, XD but I meant like in a deceiving type of hide when a person shelters their true self.
@ FairyGodFeather tbh, i’m not crazy about the idea of dating a teacher either. I think there’s a few cases where things turn out ok but they’re not the majority. these kinds of relationships are very risky and usually blow up in your face even when you think it’s under control. I’m going to illustrate that in my game by writing in a bunch of pitfalls and bad endings and only maybe one or 2 good outcomes (i think one good one will be if you choose to end the relationship, then pursue it after graduation).
so it’ll be possible to have a good outcome dating the teacher, but dang is it going to be hard to get! unless, of course, common sense makes everyone opt out 
also, i’ve read Emily Short’s Bee. it’s a good one! although i’d have a hard time wanting to play through it again. feels like the endings aren’t going to be that much different.
@ 2Ton I’m not against dating older people either. A decade older is fine, heck i thought about going out with someone 15 yrs older than me. (i didn’t feel enough of a connection, but i don’t think age was the issue. i’ve turned down guys my age for the same reason.) However i’ll admit i’m a little iffy about dating teachers/bosses/managers/officers/people who are absolutely higher up than you. I think it’s more of a mentor relationship at that point, and don’t see why anyone would want to mess that up with volitle, unpredictable dating…(how willing i am to date them also depends on much power they have–if they don’t have much i might consider going out with them. but someone who really calls the shots, like a teacher, just seems like trouble)
i haven’t decided whether to let them skip class or not
@ Random thanks for the encouragement! i love games like this as well, which i guess is how i got the inspiration for making one. i’m definitely checking out this persona game series, maybe i’ll learn a thing or 2 from it. i am letting the person decide their gender, but you’re right the appearence activities are going to be a bit different (but not as different as you think). Both guys and girls have the option to exercise and go clothes shopping–altho they’re clearly buying different things. a flowery headband would just look weird on a guy, gay or straight both can style their hair too. but where a girl puts on makeup, a guy is just going to shave, use cream and moisturizers, maybe pluck some nosehairs, idk. altho guys wearing makeup is possible, i think it would be a little too out there for most players (including me. sorry Godfeather :p).
@Turtler yea, i figure it’s better to stay out of the pedo topic. rapists are bad, pedos are bad and creepy. that’s all i’m gonna say! don’t worry, i’m going to take this teacher romance thing very seriously. i like edgy teen stories where the character makes questionable choices and ends up with serious consequences. i also like picking “bad” choices in games just to see how badly it screws me over XD i want to give others the same power. i’m also considering both sides of the coin, like you said, by giving a small possibility of a good ending with teacher. but again, it’s a risky and volitile relationship so there’s a much bigger chance it’ll turn out bad. also, if you choose to pursue it, the narrator is going to show serious doubt and warn you several times before it goes back to narrating like usual.
To Everyone: I don’t mind seeing moral discussions (or discussions about any topic, for that matter) as long it doesn’t overwhelm the thread. I trust y’alls judgment (kudos to FairyGodFeather for saying it out loud, altho i’m sure all of you were being careful) since i haven’t seen any conversation derail the thread yet. As for the gender expression, i would rather keep my guys masculine and my girls feminine, although i’ll take what you guys said into consideration and maybe blur the line a little (maybe give the guys an option to buy girly colored stuff or something). there’s only a slight difference in girls/guys appearence activities, guys use skin cream/moisturizer where girls use actual makeup-i know girls use moisturizers and stuff too but i wanted a slight difference. i haven’t figured out if i want to do several different cliques (like music, nerds, jocks, etc) or not.
I’m letting the player set these from the start:
Name
Hair Color
Race
Eye Color
Gender
Sexual Orientation
@Phoenixred019 I think I see where your coming from you just dont wanna ruin the relationship and make things awkward?
I tend to hate the “what sexual orientation are you” questions, especially at school when not everyone knows what they are, or even cares. I generally prefer just to have the option in game to date whomever I want, and let my orientation develop from who I find attractive, to get a chance to experiment as you like, as opposed to be stuck into a rigid category.
I went to school under the cloud of section 28, and there was absolutely no discussion of any sexuality other than heterosexual. And of course there was a huge amount of bullying if you did not conform. I hated school. It was so much better outside of school when I was finally able to find an alternative crowd who wouldn’t judge me quite as much. Which isn’t to say there wasn’t still prejudice, but compared to school it was better.
@2Ton Rigid gender categories are destructive. I’ve seen statistics as high as half of transgender people attempt suicide at least once. (The rates go down for those who actually manage to transition). That they’re far more likely to be murdered. I’ve seen statistics as high as 1 in 12 transgender people will be murdered, however there’s not been any sort of formal study conducted into it that I can see. They’re far more likely to lose their jobs, to be unable to find work, to end up homeless, rejected by their families, attacked by people who think they have a right to police gender roles.
So I’m just going to say, you have no right to judge anyone’s gender expression. You also have no right to imply that straight men are more concerned about masculinity than gay or bisexual men. You are wrong.
And most transvestites (the practice of cross-dressing, which is wearing clothing traditionally associated with the opposite sex or gender) are straight.
@FairyGodfeather Wholeheartedly agreed about the potential bad end stuff. Ending up on a Sex Offender Registry is certainly not a winning move for anyone, and I think handling a Teacher romance would *require* that. However, I also say that it should in no way be the only way it can/should end.
@Pheonixred019 I’m glad to hear, and I think most of us do trust you to do it well.
That said, one small quibble: you mentioned earlier that the “good” end would be breaking up with the teacher and then pursuing it after graduation. Now, this does worry me for a couple different reasons. As I’ve tried to highlight on the other major discussion now (where we are discussing resistance to frikking Hitler) I would be nervous about ramrodding morals down the throat of anything in this medium, and this does raise some functional problems. While I don’t have a problem with it morally (and in fact believe it would be the responsible thing to do IRL), structurally and narratively I feel there are some problems it would pose.
Long story short: it risks cutting off interaction with a character (probably) well before the end game. I mention this because chances are, people *will* want to interact with characters, and will want to see the relationships (not strictly romantic, but in general) develop. Having cutting that off early be the only way to get the “Good End” I think hurts the narrative structure on the whole *unless* you take steps to prevent that decay risk. I’ll leave it up to you to decide, but I would be deeply uncertain about making it that railroaded, especially when it isn’t the only thing at stake. If that makes any sense?
Also, on another note, you mention the narrator actually reacting to that. Does this mean we can expect the narrator to have a more active role in proceedings than just…well… being an objective narrator? Perhaps even a rather lemony role?
Was somewhat interested in how you wanted to play that angle as well.