LGBTQ vs Realism

I guess I did kinda create a thread that was asking a similar question from the opposite angle :sweat_smile: which was more going into when and how one might tackle discrimination themes in an interactive fiction medium… This topic.

Ah, so if I were to distill my opinion very briefly, I don’t think there’s really one right way to do it. Depicting a setting without discrimination can be quite nice; when it is present, especially if it’s a real world thing, or something with analogues to real world things, then you’re going to need to be careful not to be bigoted about it.

One key, I think, is that it’s generally best to make sure you’re not really closing off options to a player character for being a member of a minority or a woman. That said, I do sometimes, depending on the setting, like a little acknowledgement when I’m playing a gay character (i.e. literally every single game except Choice of the Dragon) of things that might be a little different for that reason… it can make it feel like the option to be gay is less of an afterthought.
As far as examples… Hollywood Visionary was a game where I actually would’ve liked my storyline to feel a little different for being gay, due to taking place in the 1950s… not to the point of being stopped from doing anything, but just a bit more of an acknowledgement, and maybe fueling the paranoia a little more. (Especially when my male love interest talked about previously having been married to another man… that didn’t really feel like it’d been written with gay '50s characters in mind…) There’s actually a brief scene I really liked which never displays when playing, because it’s hidden under *comment, in which an unpleasant character makes a brief homophobic insult… and then another character steps in for some major comforting time… and that comforting time gave me really warm and happy feelings… so I liked having that.
6th Grade Detective is the classic example of a game which I really like (a lot), but which I felt made an unfortunate decision when it comes to playing a gay character… namely a bit of banter where a love interest’s uncle will tease the main character and that love interest about being a boyfriend/girlfriend… but you’ll only get this tease if they’re opposite genders. The teasing was cute. I don’t want to be deprived of cuteness due to playing as gay :unamused:
Moving from LGBTQ to gender, there’s Slammed!… if I recall correctly, if playing a woman (which I haven’t done, so I’m going on hearsay), there’s a bit of a plotline involving challenging sexism in wrestling, which I think sounded optional, one of the paths you can pick near the end, and not available for men. That sounds to me like a good way of handling this, since it’s giving more plot material, rather than depriving the player of plot material, and it’s targeted to showing the discrimination as wrong, and you can choose a different plot if you want to.

Now, in @Spyder’s WiP, The Oval Office, I did recently give some advice in terms of gay characters that maybe other people might disagree with. I mean, I was only giving the advice from the standpoint of what I, personally, might like to see. Basically I was just saying that, if I’m playing a gay president, I might like to see some mention of this… and I was saying this not from the standpoint of “please hurl challenges and abuse at me :smile:!” but from the standpoint of “becoming the first gay president would be a big achievement. I would like to be recognized for this.” There was already a similar question from a reporter for someone playing a female president, about how it feels to be the first woman president… anyway, wondering how others might feel about that bit of advice…

Also, when it comes to realism, I think one of the main problems is when people use “realism” as an excuse to bash other people for writing something inclusive… but I do also think people can write something with realism and inclusion, and can even write something that depicts a setting where discrimination exists but write a story that is still inclusive.
One of the big things is that people use use discriminatory settings as an excuse not to write characters from the group discriminated against… “this is a patriarchal and homophobic setting, so of course all my characters are straight men.” I strongly feel that, in such cases, it’s very important for such a story to really use characters from the disadvantaged groups… “this is a patriarchal setting, and therefore I shall write about women and GBTQ men.”

(I would like to see more settings without all this discrimination too… I just think there’s more than one viable approach here…)

Let’s see…[quote=“ParrotWatcher, post:1, topic:27311”]
Firstly, and I hope I don’t need to belabour this point, is it wrong to include LGBTQ minorities in a work, even when “realism” suggests that they wouldn’t be there? Of course not; representation is important, both for LGBTQ readers, and for non-LGBTQ readers.
[/quote]

I don’t even really think there’s going to be many situations where it’d be unrealistic for such characters to be present. In some historical settings, and settings based on those, it might be unrealistic for them to be open about that, true. But I think people tend to underestimate how present LGBTQ people have been in history, maybe because it often gets censored… and people tend to think that a lot of settings were way more intolerant than they actually were. The early middle ages, for example… not exactly a great time to be gay, but while the church considered it technically sinful, it wasn’t really considered a major sin, so even a 100% realistic depiction of the middle ages

Also, I would like to emphasize that this is not necessarily true. History is not just the history of Abrahamic religions, and even Abrahamic religions have not always been uniformly homophobic and transphobic. There have been other cultures with homophobic and transphobic attitudes, but not most of them. And it comes in different degrees too… there’ve been a lot of societies where it’s okay to have gay relationships but heterosexual marriage is expected… this still isn’t great, but it’s more complicated than just complete condemnation.

I think this might be where our opinions are diverging a little ( :cry: )… but, ah, I certainly agree that the example you give is something that people should refrain from writing. I’d say that goes to the point of whether you’re actively discriminating against the player’s storyline for choosing a gay character… are you cutting out narrative options, and closing out a happy ending? Then yeah, that’s unfair. But you can still work with such a setting and provide sorta bonus material, without closing any doors… then that won’t be to everyone’s taste, sure, but I don’t think that’s wrong.

I do think I’ve seen too many stories, plays, movies, etc., where the gay couple gets a substantially worse ending than the hetero couple. Which always feels like it’s saying “gay people don’t get to have happy endings. Now, heterosexual people, go feel bad about that. But not too bad, or it will disrupt your happy ending.” Let’s try to avoid doing that.

I’m not familiar with that film… I googled a little, and I wonder if this might be something to do with the fact that the film sounds like it’s more focused on a formerly bigoted character, and not so much on the people dealing with the bigotry? :thinking:

Yeah, me too :slight_smile:

I feel like I, personally, have a strong emotional need to have both of these things in my stories. I really want to enjoy and have stories and games where being gay is not an issue, and there are other problems driving the story. I think that people using so-called “realism” (I say “so-called” because it usually isn’t :rolling_eyes:) to disparage those are deeply misguided. But I also occasionally like to wallow in something that’s more about gay issues… and I also really like sometimes a story about overcoming those, or at least trying to…

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If you’re actually making it take place during a historical time period I think the reason people avoid in general it’s going to be a lot harder to write.

If I was going to do a game Let’s same and the early period The American Republic. I wouldn’t bluntly give you the choice of sexuality. If they fall in love the man it’s going to be a slow burn they’re not going to realize it right away and no they’re deeply attracted and I never have to deal with it so be like um an evolution of a realization of this is who they actually are, coming to the realization is always been that I mean it could be a great suplot within itself.

When the most famous examples during this time period Well he’s more of turn of the Civil War. Was Buchanan known for being a lifelong bachelor that he may have been by bisexual or asexual we’re not quite sure. It’s clear he did love his former fiance before she died. Simultaneously it being romantic or platonic it’s up to debate. But many people think he may have been possibly bisexual or gay later in life. Is that he lived with William R. King the Washington boarding house for 10 years. They are always seen together in public. Washington Society view them as close friends but the personal correspondence between individuals shows rumors abound among the true nature of their relationship.

Again showing a trans man and woman would be hard during this period. Even more so when you get to the different tribes if you’re coming from that perspective. They definitely existed in some lived very successful lives others it’s quite tragic. It’s comes down to how well are they at hiding their biological gender. Unless they’re in New Orleans you can get away with being a little bit eccentric in New Orleans or very eccentric by the standards of the day.

The film is clearly anti-fascist, but neonazis have adopted some of its aesthetical elements.
A similar issue happens with the movie Cabaret and the song Tomorrow belongs to me, which might sound like an inspiring and beautiful song with the message of hope until you realize who is singing it. There is a point for this, since the musical wants to illustrate how easy it is to be seduced into a fascist mindset. The problem is that some white nationalists have adopted it as an anthem.

It is a paradox how depicting discrimination can sometimes lead to people feeling more comfortable with it. I still maintain that the portrayal of this issues is important and I mostly agree with you, but the point adressed by @ParrotWatcher shows that it’s important for authors to be concius about this.

I don’t know, I guess its about finding some balance and there might not be a right way to do it. I also would like to say: writers, if you are having doubts about how depicting discrimination in your works, please ask questions and have discussions in the forums, I’m sure your stories will benefit from it.

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I find these types of discussions incredibly useless. If the author wants to include it, he’ll include it. If he doesn’t, he won’t. There’s no need to try to coerce him to either side.

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It’s not about that. These types of discussions can help some people to think about problems or points of view that they might have not considered otherwise.

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Huh. Clearly, I lost my train of thought in the middle of a sentence…

I was just going to say that even a 100% realistic depiction of the middle ages could still include a happy gay romance.

As far as evidence goes, the big thing is church penitentials. We can see from the church’s documentation what penances they were assigning for different “sins,” including “sodomy.” And early in the medieval period, those were usually fairly slight… indicating that, while the church was trying to discourage it, they weren’t exactly launching a campaign to crush it, either. And there generally weren’t any laws against it until later in the period (allowing for some regional variation, naturally.)

Discrimination can come in different degrees, after all…

That could make sense in such a setting, sure. I mean, the term “homosexual” didn’t exist before 1880, and the identity was still gradually emerging around then… there were other early terms like “Uranian” and “invert,” as the identity was developing, although a lot of these terms tended to conflate what we’d consider homosexuality with what we’d consider transgender identities. So asking “are you gay?” wouldn’t make sense back then… but you could still just ask a character who they’re interested in… or just, when romance options come up, let the character be interested or not on a case-by-case basis.

And if the author wants to include it, but isn’t sure how, the discussion could help. And if the author is uncertain, persuadable, or just hasn’t ever thought about the issue, the discussion could change their mind. And if the author is a woman, she apparently doesn’t exist.

Useless to you doesn’t mean useless to everybody.

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@TSSL @Colonel_Yasar

Please, I understand this is a sensitive issue, but I believe we can all act mature about it. I wouldn’t like that the moderators have to close this thread.

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When I see people having a discussion of ammunition, or golf, or dog breeding, or any other subject that is neither interesting nor useful to me, personally, I don’t feel the need to jump in and tell them all that I find the discussion useless.

I love how a minor use of sarcasm is apparently equivalent to being “so easily offended.”

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Then there’s always the fact that wealthy and high class/status individuals usually have it significantly easier when it came to those sorts of things, their biggest threats being blackmail and exile as opposed to being drawn and quartered in the town square or being forced to do a life sentence of hard labour, with or without being shipped off the the colonies in later periods.

Not really seeing any immaturity here, just the same straight guy entitled bullcrap I used to see over at the Bioware forums a couple of years ago, back when I still frequented them and @TSSL crusading against it, which frankly considering what this place is shouldn’t have to be necessary over here.

Well ammunition and dog-breeding are always useful and now that I’m officially an evil, amoral bastard I really should look into golf more. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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Why do I even bother?

@RETowers, please I think that the issue is getting out of hand here. Can you do something about it?

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Why that specific mod? I don’t think this even dignifies a response but if it does @Sashira @JimD or @Havenstone might be quicker.

Oh, I did not know. The only time I saw a mod intervening in a thread was with her.

Also a good point, yes. I’m just pointing out that a lot of the harsher penalties didn’t really kick in until the late middle ages, or even the renaissance… and sometimes later than that. I think it would help the realism issue for it to be broadcast a little more that being in a gay relationship in the middle ages didn’t necessarily mean going to the chopping block, but could still lead to just as fulfilling a life… maybe with a few villagers sniggering behind your back, but with your head still attached and your heart still beating :stuck_out_tongue:

And I would genuinely hope that you enjoy any and all discussions you have on these topics; I just won’t personally be barging in on them :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I’m particularly thinking of all the discussions of ammunition that happen on the Zombie Exodus: Safe Haven thread… not a topic that I know stuff about, not a topic that particularly interests me, not even something that I’m likely to notice much when playing the game, but I’m not going to stand around complaining that people are talking about it, because I think it still adds to the game. Nor does it detract from my experience in any way. It turns out that it’s completely possible for people to have different interests, and like talking about different things, and to respect those without intruding on each other.
Likewise for those who aren’t into LGBTQ discussions, and for whom it wouldn’t impact the game much… why rain on those for whom it would make a difference? Why do you care?

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You can actually call all mods with @ moderators (which I won’t do here, because I don’t really think we need intervention right now, as long as people keep it calm and friendly :slight_smile:).

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Well maybe you are right. The issue has been contained quicker than I thought.

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Except in about 10 years you’ll become an evil amoral bastard yourself and while you may never grow to like ammunition or dog breeding, I bet I’ll be seeing you in the golf discussions then and you’ll be sorry you didn’t get into it sooner. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

So that’s how it’s gonna be in your wip, eventually good to know and by all means let them snigger they’re just jealous at my mc’s super-cute boyfriend(s) by then and the fact that he doesn’t have to break his back to provide for 18 kids by then, right?

The question that many of us have been asking, particularly when we became gamers, I’m sure…I guess the straight guys are uncomfortable with it because our culture on a fundamental level is still deeply uncomfortable with public displays of homosexuality. Many states in the US still have the “gay panic” defense, right? And even over here it can be a mitigating factor at sentencing. :disappointed:
What I took away from my time on the old Bioware forums, apart from the deep personal discomfort it apparently causes some “straight” male gamers is that they feel they lose content for them with every gay romance that gets put into the game and discard the fact that gay people are also people they’re not just gay and can have other roles and purpose in the gameworld than merely being gay. Dorian is a great example of gay character who also works on the friendship level for straight mc’s.
On the other hand their most recent game, Andromeda has taken a significant step backwards and the gay character there indeed literally has no purpose other then being gay. But that whole game is a big example of a rushed job with questionable writing.

Personally I’m happy that CoG to some extent does discriminate in favour of all non-straight and non-male gamers in order to redress some of the imbalance decades of the video game industry and centuries of literature have produced.

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US straight culture (especially male) is predominantly homophobic. Just on the most basic level, homosexuality is seen as an insult or an attack on masculinity. Even with the relative public acceptance of homosexuality as a fact of modern life (notice I didn’t say acceptance in general it’s more “accepted” in the same way crime is, or obesity.) I still see plenty of cases where perceived homosexual behavior or appearance is an insult. Plus an overwhelming believe that gay cannot equal male or masculine especially because male and masculine in American culture is overwhelmingly pro-violence, pro-repression of emotions, and very, very non inclusive.
The cliche of “real men don’t cry” is still very much a commonly held belief in masculine circles. That’s not even going into the very, very ugly realm of feminization of gay males by “straight” married men on some of the seedier areas of society in order to downplay the same sex actions those men are taking.
Though I feel I’m veering off topic, to bring it back on topic a little bit, I like what TSSL said about using the fact that same sex relationships often weren’t publicly admitted too or accepted in Western culture, post 15th or 16th centuries afaik. That being said, Male friendships were often described in a very emotional and close way, and it’s easy to see that developing into a Romantic relationship and that could easily be included in the story.
Long story short, if Realism=discrimination for LGBTQ readers then it’s not beneficial to do that.

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Well, maybe. I enjoyed miniature golf one time. Maybe I’m actually golfcurious. (I like how a fairly randomly chosen example I gave is now a topic of discussion ;P)

Ah, not exactly, 'cause my WiP isn’t based on early medieval Europe. Verdant culture has traditionally been the most gay-inclusive on the planet, but the steppe-derived culture to the northwest (I really need to name them :sweat_smile:) is homophobic. So there’d be some presence of that from people who’ve been influenced by them, especially on the monarchist side. But, and I think this should be important, your character would have the cultural background to call them out on it, and to be supported by other characters for doing so.

I have seen a lot of people who’ll say they’re perfectly okay with people being gay as long as it’s not “shoved down their throats.” This often seems to equate to any circumstance in which that person would just notice someone being gay, like if a guy mentions his boyfriend, asks someone out, or just says “I’m gay.” (I’m gay :stuck_out_tongue:) So, by that criterion, I guess just being able to see a thread with the word “LGBTQ” in its title might constitute “shoving it down their throat.”

Of course, this is sorta a way of saying “I’m okay with people being gay as long as I’m never aware of it,” which is functionally equivalent to “I’m not okay with people being gay.”

Not sure… huh, according to wikipedia, every state except California…? Yay…? :expressionless:

Interesting point :thinking: I’ve also encountered people who seem to act like whenever a piece of media includes minority characters and more than token women, that’s because the creator was bullied into doing so, rather than that the creator might actually have personally wanted to create something that way.

That too. Whenever people call for more “straight representation” and suchlike, they should bear in mind that that exists all around them, so it’s not really something that can be treated as equivalent to gay representation.

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Yep, It’s the “polite” way of saying that and still our Christian Democrat’s official “principled” stance on the matter too. You can only be gay behind closed doors apparently. A sterling example of this trope in real-life. :disappointed: Of course the male example of that trope advocates actual burial. :unamused:

Except you live in Ryanland, right? So you’d better be careful then.

Exactly gay people are mostly defined by the same things as their straight counterparts, a gay baker is still a baker. Again it is at the highest levels of society where that breaks down and you are simultaneously the most free and the most repressed, like gay kings and princes for example. Of course it also heavily depends on the culture, through that still shouldn’t mean it should be impossible to have a nice life for gay mc’s. For example Mara’s guide to a fulfilling life as a gay Spanish noble would be to marry a woman wait for a son, then stick your wife in a convent and live happily ever after. :wink:

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Thanks for the tropes link actually, I always wondered where the lesbian=trauma thing came from because I didn’t understand why people who argued girls liking girls wasnt real.
I’ve always put it firmly into the nonsense/horrible category but yah I’ve absolutely noticed it’s very prevelant. To the point I lost a valued friendship with a Lesbian friend because I started hanging out with her and she thought I was trying to do the “oh she’s only lesbian because she hasn’t met me yet” angle, and I got frustrated because I hadn’t done that or hit on her or anything. It’s nice to understand why she would feel that way, though I’m not sure how I could make the fact I wasnt trying to do that clear.