Yeah, you have no idea how true and how annoying that is. Among other things that’s why I stopped being a member of Bioware’s forums long ago. Literally every other “unrealistic” thing could be chalked up to suspension of disbelief but gay dudes!? (Apologies to our lesbian members but at least in AAA games f/f has seemingly drawn much less flack because girl on girl is straight male fanservice too) “Whoa no way that’s realistic and that’ll totally like break muh immersion brah!” 
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Lesbian relationships fetishized for straight dudes is not really the pinnacle of representation either tbh, but yeah the main problem seems to be that the expected audience is straight and male, and everything that is outside of that expection is just “extra” in contrast to the “default”. And the extra needs a reason to be an accepted part of the game of course 
(Same about most characters that aren’t white)
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I only mentioned Harry Potter to show that the term unrealistic still applies to it BUT since it is a fantasy novel it makes no sense to use that as an objection. I was trying to show the term unrealistic can be quite flexible on how we choose to use it and so we should define the boundaries of the discussion.
Yes and no. Yes, in the sense the writer has an artistic license to write whatever they want. No, in the sense that there is still an expectation that one remain authentic to the time. A recent novel I just read, “Half of a Yellow Sun” is a story about a historic war in Nigeria. as it is a novel we don’t expect that it be 100% realistic about what happened and the life of the times but it is not unreasonable to expect the author to remain at least authentic during this time of war in Nigeria.
I agree, there are people who are bigoted that use the term unrealistic as a guise for their bigotry. That does not mean that when I or some other person uses it, that they have a hidden agenda. Placing everyone in one box will not help the situation.
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Hmm, I’m unsure…On the one hand, as I’ve stated previously highlighting discriminatory views, such as anti LGBTQ views can present a good opportunity to deal with them. However that makes for a heavy, serious story, playing stories like that constantly would be really draining, it’s nice to play a game that is inclusive without draining you by being so serious and reminding you how negative views towards certain groups can be. Personally for example I’ve experienced media that depicts the treatment of women and gender roles realistically(watching Billy Elliott now, so that helped me think of that 
) and yeah, it’s great that they deal with those issues, but yeah, it’s nice to have some escapism, to play a game about an interesting subject without the seriousness of issues such as discrimination, it just feels kinda…wrong being like oh well all these genres/subjects involve issues surrounding discrimination, so you can only write about them if you include them too.
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Here’s the thing: LGBTQ people and cis, straight people know that bigotry against LGBTQ people exists. We know. We get it. We live it. If an author does or does not want to include bigotry in their work, then that’s their choice. It’s based on the type of story they want to tell. If their choice ruins the game for you, then yes, it does say something about your ability to accept LGBTQ people. Requiring bigotry and asserting that positive attitudes toward diversity can only be a modern invention betrays your discomfort with diversity.
Here’s an example: An assignment in my world history class a few years ago required us to choose a time in history before 600 AD that we would like to experience. Right away, the straight, cis men in my class got to discussing all the interesting and fun things they would like to have done and have seen. The women and LGBTQ people in my class struggled to think of a time where we could exist with some kind of quality of life.
For the straight, cis men, it was a fun exercise in imagination. For me, I just wanted to live in a place where I wouldn’t be expected to marry someone twice my age as property, experience sexual violence with no way to prosecute the offender, and probably die in childbirth.
So, yes, historical accuracy absolutely does not matter to me in regards to diversity. It does not matter at all. You know those choice of games you guys are mentioning that preserved historical accuracy? Choosing the same gender romances and options didn’t make me think, “Gee, I appreciate the historical accuracy here,” it made me feel bad. It made me think, “I’m glad I wasn’t born in this time, because this is not fun.”
TL;DR: I reject the idea that fun is restricted to those who weren’t prosecuted in history. I don’t mind playing games that explore these ideas, but requiring it so it doesn’t ruin your suspension of disbelief is frankly not cutting it for me.
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It is ironic that you’re using Harry Potter as your choice, considering that the series has been criticized for a lack of diversity. You chose to highlight a hypothetical group, witches and wizards, when real groups of people aren’t included or are barely included in the work. You’re purposefully avoiding @Nael’s actual argument and simplifying it in a way that doesn’t make sense. Of course it’s absurd to be bigoted toward witches and wizards, who don’t exist (at least not in the way of Harry Potter), but it’s not absurd to point out that you may be uncritically accepting the story’s lack of diversity.
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@Darkner, to be fair I think that what @ParrotWatcher meant to say was only that the experience of a player/character that is part of a minority shouldn’t be significantly worse that the one that isn’t.
That said, I think that a player that is part of a minority might like to play a game that deals with discrimination. Yes, I know some people don’t want to, but that is not the case for everyone. And I personally think that not all games need to be fun, some of them could be used to reflect on serious issues.
If people want escapism, fine. Everyone needs it once in a while. But I think that every medium that can be used as an art form can be able to handle this issues.
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I think it’s very telling when I hear straight white males immediately pick apart an argument of why someone feels discriminated against instead of asking why do they feel that way and how can I help them?
I think there’s a fundamental lack of emotional maturity in society, and the logical conclusion of that is intolerance and discrimination.
(Not targeting anyone on here, just my personal thoughts)
I also think that, as a straight white male, I need to be extra careful about unconsciously or consciously enforcing discrimination. Simply because it’s not a coincedence that a majority of the civil rights issues and discrimination in the U.S was and is caused by straight white males, and that’s kind of why I think we have a long, long way to go in society and frankly, we need to ask and address the feelings rather than say “naw, I’m not hurting you” because I think that’s not conducive to being a decent person.
Yah, your story about the history class was really telling, and definitely helped me put a lot of the LGBT issues in a different light.
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No offense but what I get from that is that a portion of your class needed to do a better job at studying cultures. Ancient Egypt was known for its openess towards sex and relative acceptance of homosexuality, in fact, they were probably one of the few cultures at the time where women were more or less on the same foot as men in terms of power and roles. If you’re were looking for quality of life then theirs was the culture you’d want.
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I don’t appreciate your response for two reasons. One, it’s condescending. Two, it ignores the point. Most cultures were not Egypt, and Egypt was not a shining example of civil rights, either.
Realism is beginning to make me flinch when I read it around here, as some may have noticed I often show up on WIP threads with my catch phrase in tow “can I play as a lesbian?” I have posted a few times before on how if the answer is “no” then I have no interest. That said I have had replies using the word “realism” tossed at me which I tend to read as “be a good girl, shut up and let that man violate your character”
As for the point about bigotry I agree, it should never be normalized but can certainly have a place in a story, I commented before about a WIP that I was rather shocked that one of the character’s didn’t say something homophobic to me. Honestly it would have fit the character and he was highly unlikable in my option already.
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Only? No. The excuse does a fine job excluding a variety of demographics. I know this thread’s about LGBTQ, but that doesn’t mean we should pretend that’s the only excluded group.
I’m one of those people. Honestly reading topics on this forum makes me feel guilty about that. Like Escapism seems almost holy here at times. The Realism people do that too, when I’m pretty sure neither are. I love Steven Universe, but I love the Handmaid’s Tale too. For varying reasons.
Sometimes I want to see a character go through something I can identify with. Something that hurt me so I can cry with them the way I wouldn’t let myself cry for me. Sometimes I want a character who’s worse off for a few reasons, like getting some perspective.
To be honest, I’d love a game that tackled discrimination in a smart, careful way. I once bought an indie game on that promise alone. I don’t remember the title because it didn’t follow through.
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I won’t deny that prejudices have something to do with that. But I also think that it can be because we are more used to certain types of “romantizations” than others, and therefore we don’t question it so much.
For example, I think that I generally don’t question it too much when I see ethnic minorities appear in historical setting where it would be unusual to see one, or women behave in a different way that the women in that time behaved, simply because I’m more used to see that in fiction.
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If you were a rich, high-status individual there were lots of times and places throughout history where you could have led a reasonably fulfilling and worthwhile life. Sadly this did not hold true for the lower strata of society and for homosexual individuals in those social classes homosexuality was a complication with often horrific consequences that was placed atop the usual lower class (economic and) social misery.
That is certainly true, for example this relatively recent discovery might cause us to have to re-examine everything we thought we knew about historical Roman demographic and the influence of ancient China and other ancient Asian nations on our (cultural) development. And there are lots of similar stories popping up now, from women buried with weapons to our own black Dutch nobles (yes, with all that implies up to and including owning their fellow blacks as chattel slaves) who apparently weren’t just colonial rulers or influential only in native politics, particularly in the 1600’s. Again that is presumably due to the bias and racial theories later historians adhered to that they might have edited those inconvenient facts out.
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There is a discussion continuing here and elsewhere concerning representation of any minority in fiction. CoG is one of the few fiction producers that try to advance that representation in many ways and through various efforts. Part of the responsibility of advancing that representation is to do so in a way that avoids reinforcing stereotypes and differences in the minds of the fiction market.
In my opinion, the way that the non-binary sibling was written, the way that character was portrayed to me and the overall impression that character left me as a consumer of IF fiction was negative.
A specific issue I had with the character is that the non-binary character is represented as a secondary character that is helpless to defend themselves and needs rescuing. The Mother was a strong warrior type able to defend and protect herself during war and even was portrayed as a local warrior-hero. The father was able to take care of a household and raise kids … the protagonist, as a child, is able to figure out how to rescue themselves from the initial demon encounter …
I feel the authors missed an opportunity in representation with this character and if they had just made a few changes or re-imagined the character I would be saying something entirely different.
ymmv.
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No culture has ever had perfect civil rights, not now, not ever, the most you can do is pick the one closest to your ideals of living. Egypt was a big one if we’re talking exclusively about LGB(T) as well as free marriage and divorce. (I set aside the T because I honestly don’t know many historical cases to make a point). Mesopotamia, several indigenous nations from the Americas previous to the colonizations acknowledged and respect gay people (though not sure if it the latter would fit the 600BC requirement).
Some empires were better than others but from what I’ve gathered is that those who had polythetistic beliefs were more open-minded and tolerant of such matters, it wasn’t until the arrival of Christianity that homosexuality started being portraited in such a negative light and gender roles more static. Point is, historically, there were a few cultures that allowed you to lead a decent life as a gay or bi individual without much trouble but unless you go look for them you wouldn’t know.
Times are changing, schools really need to start including these topics in their programs and not just the run-of-the-mill stuff that nobody cares about or is even going to remember in 10 years. Hopefuly it will broaded minds and teach the kids that LGBT ins’t just a modern thing. With a little luck maybe they’ll even strive for some semblance of peace and tolerance just like our ancestors did.
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I believe it’s heavily dependent on the type of story. For some stories, realism is a main component (say, if someone were writing a story based off of a situation that happened to them, for example, and wanted to present it accurately).
However, “realism” as a topic seems to come up most often when criticizing the inclusion of minority characters in stories. In those cases, the criticism has no ground to stand on when the story’s setting and plot involve things that aren’t real, anyway.
It seems rather inconsequential in situations like this to take issues with minority characters. After all, it’s nonfiction anyway.
When it comes to the inclusion of bigotry, again, it depends on the story being written. If someone were to write a story about the struggles of a young interracial gay couple living in poverty, bigotry and related systems of oppression would be important to include.
Though I’ve found that many (usually straight cis) writers don’t know how to accurately portray homophobia and transphobia. Funnily enough, these are cases in which criticizing the realism of a story is appropriate–when what is written can misrepresent real situations and people and/or spread misinformation.
Inclusion of homophobic/transphobic bigotry is much different when it comes from LGBT+ writers. It is a way to express oneself and one’s struggle (sometimes to bring awareness to the issue), to vent, and/or to cope.
When it comes to straight cisgender writers including bigotry, it often has an air of emotional manipulation and using real life trauma as a source of drama for characters. Not to mention the potential to capitalize off the struggles of others. This isn’t to say straight cisgender people shouldn’t ever include homophobia/transphobia in their writing. But I rarely see said writers doing proper research (like interviewing LGBT+ people) in order to correctly represent these situations, despite the fact that “realism” is the defense used for including bigotry in the first place.
And while the inclusion of the struggles that LGBT+ folks face isn’t something inherently bad or wrong to include, in most cases, it’s not necessary. There’s nothing wrong with writing a story about gay space pirates that doesn’t include homophobia, or a story about a trans elf trying to save their village from a dragon with their orc friend that doesn’t include transphobia. These stories revolve around fictional characters and settings that already require readers to suspend their disbelief. LGBT+ characters shouldn’t break the immersion considering that the characters being LGBT+ is a more realistic aspect of the story. If they do, it’s likely because LGBT+ people make you uncomfortable, not because it’s “unrealistic.”
One piece of fiction that seems particularly relevant to this topic is Story of Steampunk. This was a game I really enjoyed, and I don’t think there was anything much wrong with the way that homophobia was included in the story, especially because it actually considers situations LGBT+ people found themselves in in the past while still allowing an enjoyable experience not overshadowed by said inclusion. There are pros and cons of how it was written, of course. Players who have experience with having to hide their sexuality and same gender relationships certainly have a case for skipping over this particular game, for example.
What matters to me is knowing that the author has also coauthored games that don’t have the same dynamic regarding same gender romance because it gives potential gay/bi/pan/poly players other options rather than leaving them empty-handed.
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I feel it’s important to note that nonbinary genders have existed and been accepted throughout history in various cultures. The enforcement of strict binary genders and subsequent roles is largely a product of colonization, as they have been and continue to be used as a tool to promote racism and white supremacy.
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Agreed, not to mention the historical record in most places had so many holes you can make a very compelling argument for including those characters, especially because as we learn more about history and the anthropological record we find the past was far less white washed and homophobic then colonialist historians would have had us believe.
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Yeah, it is definitely important to remember that the people who research and write about history (and anything, obviously) are impacted by their own cultural biases and are often of the belief that current white, western society is an accurate model to apply to any place and time throughout history.
Which is why these same people often end up surprised when a discovery is made showing that (what we conceptualize today as) LGBT+ people have existed as respected individuals in various cultures throughout history. Or anything that shows that other cultures had more respect for women and disabled people, for that matter.
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