I'm Sorry, But I Think We Should See Other People - ROs You Hate

General
2751

Oh, I think it is important to be able to reject the NPC wholely!
But give me the possibility to reject them!

I prefer an ass or awkward NPc to a passive one.
Let them fall on their ass it give the player the possibility to choose who reacts how.
Ouroboros being a WIP that does that well in my opinion.
But having to always be the one to chase after an RO as a passive and shy person who sometimes has problems to play more aggressive characters if I don’t play :sparkles:cringe I can’t romance and that takes away from my reading experience…

I get it, I was also had bad experiences with people I was not interested in but please don’t make every RO a wussy.
Make it at least dependant on the romantic interest of the MC.
I literally created a female RO who will be assertive and dominant (don’t even like woman) because men sometimes want to be pursued too.
I love characters that take the first step even if I don’t want that.
Example: I really ended up liking Danny because he does pursue sidestep depending on how you play without the player having to pursue him actively, just choosing romance flags is enough for the character to influence how he will pursue sidestep. Even then you still have the opportunity to be hostile towards him and shut any romantic interests down.

Negatively I have A of Wayhaven who is just there if the narrative doesn’t force you into reaction a certain way or sadly characters like Seven of Infamous (still a guilty pleasure) who hates your guts but won’t pursue you even if they are assertive normally.
Just a person who would normally pursue their romantic interest being passive is a downer for me.

I think that’s why I really don’t like Feriados romance in Heart of battle. there is a character that seems to want to pursue you but then is so passive because “powe imbalance”.
Like if I want my MC to sleep with you don’t give me a moral speech about power imbalance just let me sleep with the character or reject them :upside_down_face:

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2752

Funniest shit is the fact that he still uses you for his own goals. You and Eryx are dressed up and dangled in front of local nobility with no concern for your opinions, he can only change his mind about rebellion if you repeatedly pester him… but this noble who, like DAI Dorian, is firebrand in words alone, apparently has real bleeding concerns about power imbalance™

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2753

I know right :clown_face:.
He is fine with using you when it suits him but doesn’t trust you to have control over your own body and mind… God I am tempted to do a hate replay to fuel my anger :joy:

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2754

I realize this topic was started nearly a year ago, but I was reading the first posts and noticed all the hated characters mentioned were supposed to be antagonistic toward the PC. As a writer I’m interested if the OP or anyone else who generally doesn’t enjoy rude ROs has a “rivalmance” that they like, or if this trope just isn’t something they enjoy?

I don’t think there’s any ROs I hate, I think because I write a lot, so I see the characters as part of the plot- they have a purpose and I want to see them fulfilling that purpose regardless of how they treat a PC.

If I had to choose a character, I would probably pick Blane from When Twilight Strikes, but not because of how they treat the PC. What I don’t like is that N seems to be Blane’s only friend, who goes around apologizing for their bad behavior and smoothing things over. It makes N seem like a crutch or babysitter for them, which is not a great place in the plot for a black character to be. Maybe Blane is decent to everyone but their boss, A, and the PC, so it’s not actually something N does often, but I haven’t seen evidence of that, so it still feels bad.

Oh, I just remembered a character, but their behavior was straight up triggering, it wasn’t that I hated them. I really enjoyed them before they behaved in a sexually aggressive way and the PC was forced to empathize with them because they were in emotional pain which, according to the author, meant they weren’t responsible for their actions.

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2755

Feels like your objection is more like towards how N acts than Blane, as you don’t object to Blane’s behaviour as you do to N’s.

Eeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww.

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2756

Oh, yikes…hate that.

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2757

I see it more as an issue with the author’s writing choices than an issue with a character, I guess I didn’t make that clear. I enjoy romancing N, despite the problem, but not Blane, because of the problem. I suppose because it reflects badly on them, while N is very sweet and an enjoyable character for me.

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2758

I’m not one of the early posters, but I wonder if the issue is less “I hate rude ROs” and more “wow, this character crosses the line from hostile to insufferable” and if the source of that comes from the writers going overboard in an attempt to chase after successful characters. If a writer goes, “hey I love this TV show where a character is a hostile shithead until they warm up to their LI, this is a great dynamic, let me do something similar in my own work,” but they develop the character with fandom-goggles on, and fandom-goggles hate subtlety. You end up with all these stories with enemies-to-lovers, rivalmances, slow burn, etc. with characters that lack the depth, warm moments, or whatever that the original successful model had to offer. Like xeroxing a character dynamic over and over as it slowly loses data and degrades, rendered down to its most basic and primitive “this LI is a jerk lol” form.

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2759

I simp for many rivalmances and gobble them up like a bulimic piranha, but a good rivalmance is hard to make and hard to balance. Hawkins is a good rivalmance, Seven isn’t really.

The difference between them is the fact Hawkins shows initiative himself and the fact that he has absolutely insane chemistry with MC. With Seven you have to grab this durian raccoon and pester him until he shows a slightest shred of affection between all the hissing and glaring daggers.

There’s no feedback or reaction, MC is seme in both cases, but with Hawkins there is always a response, there’s always a reaction that doesn’t boil down to “I HATE HATE HATE HATE YOU COMMIT SUDOKU AND DIE”. Seven may count as a guilty pleasure, but as of now I’d rather romance Jun once more.

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2760

It’s not my favorite trope. I’m not very competitive so a lot of the lighter rivalries have no stakes to me and the RO might as well be being an asshole for no reason. Also, usually there is a good reason the enemy is the enemy and so many of enemies-to-lovers romances never actually change that circumstance so instead of it being like a great redemption arc love story, it just feels like watching someone go back to their shitty ex.

However, I liked Carrie from Blood Moon.

I don’t know if I would call it rivals since the power dynamic is a bit more in the MCs favor at least from the player perspective. She’s prickly with everyone, not just the MC, but it obviously comes from a place of trauma. Carrie is also responsive when you do respond with kindness and empathy, whether that be surprise or confusion or becoming slightly less hostile.

I also think its important, if you have a rivalmance or enemies-to-lovers where there is history between the characters, that you lay out what canonically happened between the two early on. The player can’t make an informed decision about how their MC would feel about the RO without that information and it can drastically alter how players perceive the RO as well.

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2761

This. SO much this. I don’t care what your personal problem is, I just want to do my job and go home. I’m not interested in playing some stupid, juvenile game of one-upmanship with anyone. I don’t understand why “rivalries” are so popular (I think they’re an annoyance) and don’t really have any idea why someone would want to go rivals to lovers at all. I don’t want a relationship of any kind with someone who’s been a petty little hindrance at every turn! And the idea that “they just want your attention” is offensive to me. Go beg for the attention of someone who cares and stop bothering me. If I were interested, because I’m not six years old, I would have TOLD you. Not wasted everyone’s time playing silly little social games.

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2762

You just explained something I’ve been struggling to put into the words! I totally agree with the idea of fandom goggles and it not translating well to an original story or game.

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2764

Honestly, I think that with the way rivalries and rivalmances are depicted in IF, those two terms have lost their original meaning.

For a rivalry to be considered a rivalry, it has to be mutual. Otherwise it’s not a rivalry, it’s just one-sided bullying.

And the same applies to how the rivalry starts: if my character is the one who threw the first stone, I’m willing to be a bit more lenient. But if the other character is the one who throws the first stone - especially if my character was never interested in hurting them to begin with - then that’s still bullying. And in that case, my character clapping back is less because they’re ‘rusing up to the challenge’ and more just reactionary violence to try and take back control and be left alone.

I personally like well-written rivalries. They can be very fun and interesting dynamics. But there’s only a few very specific settings where they work naturally, and if the game’s setting isn’t one of those very specific settings, then the writer has to work extra hard to not make them toxic and abusive.

For example: if the game is set during a war or competition of some sort, then it’s normal for rivalries, whether friendly or more antagonistic, to happen naturally. So nobody will bat an eyelash at those.

It’s part of the reason why the rivalries in Mecha Ace and the Infinity Series work: it’s war, you’re all soldiers, competition between each other for a higher rank and fighting the people on the other side is natural. And everyone is humanized, because at the end of the day, after all the fighting, they’re still people, not just caricatures.

College Tennis is also a good example. You’re in a tennis club, you’re friends with your clubmates, but you’re also all competing against each other to win spots on the team. Hence, it’s a friendly rivalry.

But if a rivalry starts up during, say, an IF set in a cushy office job, then suddenly you’re going to need a whole lot more justification to make it seem plausible, and a whole lot more effort to not turn it into outright bullying.

Secondly, if the game isn’t set in a war or competition, you NEED to give your MCs the option to tell the NPC to fuck off and/or give the NPC the ability to realize MC just isn’t into their bullshit, especially if the rivalry is extremely antagonistic (Though ideally you should be able to do that to some extent even in war/competition settings).

For a good rivalry to work, it needs to have one of those two elements: an adequate setting or the option to back out of it. Ideally, a great rivalry has both.

But if the rivalry has neither then that’s not a rivalry, but just straight up bullying.

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2765

The rivalmances that tend to work for me, are the ones where the rival actually respects the MC. Where, yeah, they’re working against each other, but considers each other competent and their equal.
But I feel like, more and more, a lot of the time the rivals are just kinda grumpy and mean people, who are dismissive or demeaning towards the MC for no clear reason.

When Twilight Strikes was brought up, and I’ve just been replaying most of that one, over the last two days. And yeah, Blane definitely falls in the ‘seems to be just mean’ category, even though there was a POV scene showing that they know they are being shitty, and feels bad about it.
But the thing that really got to me, is that the game suffers from the whole ‘the MC has to do ALL the active flirting’ problem. Really, there’s no signs of the ROs having any romantic interest in the MC at all, outside of the flavour text directly after choosing a flirt option. Which does not mix well with having two grumpy people-hating ROs.
And both shy and bold flirt options are very active and direct. There were almost no subtle options, or options for the MC to not be fully aware of their attraction to the RO. And the few times I did see an option like that, it would be immediately followed by an NPC pointing out that the MC is obviously attracted/having a crush on the RO, which was an actually unpleasant experience.

Maybe it’s different if you focus on just one RO? The current version won’t let me save, so I flirted with everyone, up until the point where I just decided to call it quits for now.

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2766

I wouldn’t call it hate, it is more a dissapoinment for wasted time - Wilfred from Arcadie: Second-born. I liked him at first, I have a thing for reserved-stoic-duty-driven men (and often play such MC), I enjoyed the slow build, I can understand and forgive his first rejection. But then he behaves like he has any saying in MC’s political marriage. He already rejected MC affections, avoids talking to him, so what he expected? That MC would stay single indifinitely in hope that Wilfred changes his mind? And then instead of begging forgiveness he orders MC to dance with him. Does he think that MC is some dog waiting around for his fancy? Glowering at tea and being rude doesn’t help to get MC back. It was too late in game to change RO so MC ended alone which is frustrating. Hope the second RO will actually respect MC.

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2767

Cyril (I have no idea if the names differ based on gender for that one) will outright break up with you if you go through with the political marriage.

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2768

But they also won’t make you wait for them the whole game, so fair is fair.

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2769

When MC is in relationship with RO but goes into political marriage with another then it is normal for RO to brake up. But when MC is with no one, because RO rejected him, and this RO gets angry when MC is flirted with or discuss arranged marriage (he didn’t go through with it), like he owns MC, it turns me off RO. He decided that he actually wants relationship with MC? Then say it like an adult and beg that MC agrees, don’t avoid talking with MC, don’t be rude to him and don’t order him.

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2770

Cyril is the rarest type of romance in IFs - a healthy, zero-bullshit-content one. More like this, please.

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2771
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