I'm Sorry, But I Think We Should See Other People - ROs You Hate

I am not sure if it is possible to talk someone out of their hatred for some ROs, and that is ok, different people like different Things.

Personally I like M from wayhaven, but I understand that the romance is not for everyone.

I do not hate ro’s but there are some that I just would never choose, like Tom from Zombie Exodus.

Or the one I do not even know the Name from Psy high, the one your MC is always swooning without you deciding to do so. There I do Not dislike the character, never Götzen to know them, but being pushed towards them, just because the look so good, made me cringe.

I only played Evertree saga, since my game always broke when I tried to make a new char to take over to sordwin. But I disliked Dandy in the game from the first few sentences I exchanged with him.

I do not remember others at the moment but I am sure there were more I disliked and never wanted to date at all or again

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Your complaints regarding The Last Wizard sounds more to me like general complaints about that HG than specific complaints about ROs, to be honest, Zyrios. The part about two different NPCs both disliking you because you chose to side with neither of them has happened in some other HGs and COGs as well and, like it or not, this is something that can happen in real life as well, so it’s not excactly unrealistic. And I certainly don’t find it strange that a NPC reacts strongly to another NPC teasing them about the possible unfaithfulness of their spouse.

And, I for one, have never seen any good reason to choose to go back to Earth at the end of that HG. The thing is, you had a quite awful life back on Earth. You were either harassed by your boss, about to get fired from your job, framed and about to get arrested for a crime your boss did commit or about to get a fail on an important paper. And in addition to that, you were a kind of nobody. In your new world you are a respected and maybe even beloved wizard with the opportunity to learn to wield great magic power. If you play your cards right, you will also find love in the new world, among love interests that include two prince/princes and a glamorous soldier and in general someone for just about every taste.

Sure you will face several challenges in the new world, but that’s par de course in almost every kind of Fantasy adventure and the major part of those challenges are challenges that you will face before you have a chance to try to go back to your own world. Sure, you have to stop an invasion before you can find some measure of real peace and I’m not saying that’s something to snigger at, so to speak. But stopping that invasion is absolutely doable(I’ve managed that in most of my playthroughs) and if you’re able to do that, you will get your happy ever after, being a beloved and respected Royal Wizard with huge magical powers, never wanting for anything, likely in a relationship with your chosen RO and if not, I’m sure there will be no lack of other people wanting to get sexually or romantically involved. In short, you’ll get a much happier life than you probably would have if you had returned to Earth. So, to me there is no contest when choosing between staying on in the new world or returning to Earth, particularly if making that choice after stopping the invasion.

And, Hayden Winter, although it certainly doesn’t make the Winter character more likeable to me, I agree that it’s interesting that the character seems to show particular dislike, or even hate, for characters in a happy and committed relationship. I did consider, though maybe not that seriously, jealousy to be at least part of the reason why Winter were so keen on attacking the MC and L. So your other observation may mean that considering that as a possible reason wasn’t that off. Another fact that may support your theory, is that it’s strongly implied that Ruby may have been in love with the captain that Winter killed and although it’s not made clear whether Ruby and that captain were an actual couple or whether that love(if that’s what it was), was more one-sided on Ruby’s part, it could very well be that they actually were romantically involved. If that’s the case, this would mean that Winter has been in a particularly murderous mood, this has been focused on happy couples. An interesting question, then, is whether entering into a romantic relationship with Winter, if it’s possible to enter into a truly romantic relationship with the captain, actually can lead to them softening and being less murderous, since they then have their own partner and so don’t need to feel so hateful of happy and committed couples. Since this will be way of, at least partly, redeem Winter and make the changeling more likeable, that’s something I’m all for. Still doesn’t mean that I will try Winter as an RO. though, I much prefer Leah, Daisy, Oriana and Ruby.

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What? No, it won’t. In fact, it makes the narrative (not Winter, the narrative) even MORE toxic, because now it tries to put some of the blame for Winter’s murders on all the people that wouldn’t date them.

Like, redemption isn’t even in the cards, because you can’t actually redeem yourself for the willing and purposeful murder of innocent people. This isn’t actually possible unless Winter finds a way to bring those people back to life, because part of redemption is making amends and FIXING WHAT YOU BROKE, and that requires bringing the dead back to life.

This is why we don’t willingly murder innocent people, kids!

The problem with this is that people aren’t numbers and morality isn’t math. Individuals aren’t interchangeable. If Winter saves somebody’s life, that doesn’t make up for an innocent life he willingly took. Those are different lives.

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Will redeem was probably a bit too strong, could redeem would be better. Just to be clear, I don’t think any amount of sad backstory makes Winter trying to kill happy couples okay. But I meant redeem in the sense that Winter becomes a nicer person and, even if just by helping the MC, makes up for some of the damage the changeling has caused to other people in(insert whatever pronoun you want to use for a character who is in some ways the definiton of genderfluid and in other ways could be considered to be a quintessentially non-binary character) life. In short, maybe something like what TV Tropes calls Heel-Face turn, when a villain starts helping/siding with the heroes. Probably not a complete one, in Winter’s case, anyway, but if the captain at least starts behaving nicer and actually helping the hero do good this and, in other ways, at least indirectly is of aid in making good things happen, that is surely a step in the right direction. Whether that will actually happen, is of course of different matter. But Thom Bayley has so far shown that he is good in creating multi-layered characters who don’t stay the same for all of the series, so I surely wouldn’t rule that out.

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I personally don’t think it’s jealousy in the sense of “I wish I were in a romantic relationship, too”, more like a callousness and general disdain for anything pure and true, because to them and their deeply cynical world view, relationships like this are bound to fail anyway or were never real in the first place. They do say in Lux when impersonating Imperion “(…) but when did anyone ever get what they wanted out of marriage.” Okay, they’re more or less acting as Imperion here, but they break character all the time while doing so, because it’s just a prank anyway, and I do actually think that’s Hayden’s real opinion shining through.
You’re right, Ruby’s and Keoni’s relationship is technically left open for interpretation, but she does state that Winter hated how close they were (whatever that meant).
I believe Hayden must have longed for some form of let’s call it companionship, but I’m not sure if this feeling isn’t long gone and all that’s left is some form of entitlement and/or ownership of others. Another reason for them reacting so violently towards L could be the fact that L is - in some paths at least - the direct reason for you rejecting Winter’s sexual advances. They find you remotely interesting, they find you hot and at least your eyes pretty enough to steal them, and they view you as their “plaything” (that’s what they call you in a different route, if you sleep with them in the cabin), they even bluntly state “You’re mine now”. But I personally don’t think there’s any romantic feelings - not even the twisted, sick, f-ed up, Jun-like definition of romantic feelings - involved. It’s just greed, lust and entitlement. I mean, yeah, it sucks, but that’s my impression. :pensive:

But if you want to really sink your teeth into the “redeemed by romance” theory and get lost in it, I recommend listening to Margaret Berger’s “I feed you my love”. That’s the song that inspired Thom while writing Winter in Lux, he listed it in the thread. I even remember him saying the lyrics of the songs he mentioned were important and could contain spoilers if you’re very good at interpreting lyrics.
I mean… It’s definitely possible to read those lyrics in a few different ways, and “I feed you my love” sounds extremely manipulative, but if we assume all lines are from Winter’s perspective, there’s romantic gems like:
“And you push, you push me hard to the surface
I’m blinded at heart but you wake me
You wake me up from the snow where I was born”

And this…

"You put a knife against my back
And you dare me to face the attack
You say, “For cowards there’s no reward”

…while using a comparison Winter is more than familiar with, could be a metaphor for taking a leap of faith and learning to trust / love. Like, this time it’s the MC standing behind Hayden and daring them to rise up to the challenge. :sparkling_heart:

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No it doesn’t. They have to actually want to change and feel remorse for the things they’ve done to even begin redeeming themselves.

Also why can’t villains stay villains. Why do they always have to be redeemed lol.

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Idk, I’ve always felt that you redeem yourself mainly through your action. Of course, it depends on the actual actions involved but if Winter should do some actions which are as good and creates as much happiness as much as acts like killing like killing Ruby’s captain were evil and caused pain and grief, I’d say that certainly would count in redeeming Winter. And, it’s also, important to keep in mind that sometimes the good and kind actions come before the actual, concious change of heart. The villain who eventually becomes good through doing good acts or just helping the hero(es) is a well-used trope by now, so I certainly wouldn’t discount the possibilty of some sort of redemtion for Winter. Then again, maybe I just want too much for even the bad guys to be capable of redemption(at least, unless they’re the actual BIg Bad).

And I have to be honest, I’m in some ways also quite iffy, so to speak, about the “redemption through love” arc and dynamic, because I know how often that’s been used in real life as a reason/excuse for people to go for and/or stay with absolutely horrible partners, just because they believe they can save them, if they love them enough. I can (at least, partly) see the beauty of it in fiction, but much less in real life(at least in the sense of trying to make a bad person good through love). So there is a sense of ambivalence here for me, as well. Although I would like for Winter to become a better person, I don’t want this development to feel too “cheap” or unearned either. And the fact that I’m not interested exploring such an arc myself(though even less in a romance path with a RO that is unredeemably evil), is one out of several reasons for why I’m not interested in exploring the Winter path even if the captain should end being redeemed by love(if Winter should be redeemed by friendship, on the other hand…)

I’m just gonna go ahead and add to this, there’s a scene in book three that directly pertains to “loose lips” and kind of put me off F in that moment.

In the breakfast scene if you choose to help F you can bring up their past in the Echo World to which they get defensive which is fine because “Not everything is so easy to talk about.” (direct quote from F). But in the exact same scene proceeds to bring up Mc’s dead father knowing at the very least that it makes Rebecca uncomfortable. Only after M (if you’re on their friendship/romance path) calls F out about their own mother do they decide to pipe down.

This is something I found very… interesting, I still like the character but it left me feeling some type of way about F.

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I agree with your thoughts on the “redemption by love” trope in your second paragraph. I actually hate it, personally. It’s cheap, unrealistic and it often kills the appeal a character had in the first place.

I don’t know how many here are familiar with the Yakuza series (video game). I used to be a fan before the series had its big breakthrough. I was a fan in particular of the character Goro Majima, who used to be a truly messed up piece of shit in the original first games. Fans adored him for being the way he was. The developers noticed and instead of acknowledging why he was popular in the first place, they started changing him, making him more tame, more appealing to a wider range of fans. Nowadays the character is a shell of his former self. A self parody at most. He’s more popular than ever, but many like me have lost interest, because it wasn’t the same character we originally fell in love with. And those new fans never went back to the old games and have no idea how he was in the beginning.

With a character like Winter I feel a huge part of the attraction lies in… Eugh, in German we’d say “Der Weg ist das Ziel”. “The way is the goal” or “The journey is the destination”. Or maybe let me rephrase it: The hunt is better than the catch. I can’t imagine Winter being just another person who goes to bed with you in the evening and gives you a kiss in the morning. If I wanted that, I would’ve stayed with Lamuel. I never want to fully understand Winter, I don’t want to stop fearing them, and being surprised by their actions. I don’t want them to be redeemed, because then they wouldn’t be the Winter I’ve fallen in love with. So much of their attitude and core would have to change for that to happen, they wouldn’t be recognizable anymore.

But I can absolutely see why others feel different about it, in particular those who have no romantic interest in them.

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if they cant deadlift 800 pounds and run 10km in 14 minutes then they belong to the streets fr fr no cap :triumph: :triumph: :triumph:

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Alright, so let’s compare facts, here:

Your life is shit on Earth: yes and no. Yes, because the bad thing that preempted you being sent to the fantasy world is happening. No, because, once again, it’s fixable if you play your cards right, and it’s also apparently the only bad thing happening to you right at that moment, because in every run I’ve played where I went back to Earth successfully, once you fix the problem, all is well in the world for you. It was that ONE problem that was dragging you down, and you can make it disappear if you’re smart about it.

You’ll lead a happier life in the fantasy world: only after you stop a fishing boat sinking sabotage, an explosive barrel sabotage, the assassination of the entire royal family, a raging fire, a dragon attack, and other war-related issues, oh yes, and you constantly get dragged into royal politics, AND you’re expected to do everything with next to zero actual magical ability because your predecessor destroyed every book in the wizard tower, AND you’re expected to solve all these problems “because you’re the wizard,” and apparently being a wizard is a catch-all solution to everything. Oh yeah, and people will want to climb down your pants… only after you do all the previously mentioned stuff, otherwise they won’t hardly spare you a glance. And whether you’re respected or not depends on your ability to fix everything that’s going wrong in the kingdom or not.

… But yeah, much happier life than on Earth, where the worst thing you have to deal with is the one issue that you can solve and make a non-issue.

As for the ROs giving me crap for not siding with either of them in an argument about potential spouse unfaithfulness: again, why should I have to be dragged into that? And why should I have to be vilified for not taking a stand one way or the other? Why can these two people not act like adults on their own and show each other some damn respect? Why does it, once again, fall to the wizard to fix people’s drama? Yes, I know this is stuff that can also happen in real life, and it’s just as stupid in real life, to be perfectly honest with you.

I respect that you choose to stay in Duroth when you play the game, but don’t go acting like I need to be educated as to why I’m “wrong” for choosing to give the fantasy world the finger and go back to my life on Earth, because however justified you feel in your opinion, mine is equally as informed.

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Any love interest whose narrative automatically forces physical/sexual attraction upon my MC. Examples: Black Magic or Breden.

As an ace player, I mainly play/headcanon ace MCs and it always breaks my immersion to have them feel instant attraction to another person for (to me) no particularly good reason. It doesn’t help that these love interests are usually written to be aggressive flirts or at least forward in their advances which I rarely find appealing.

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Personally, I gotta respectfully disagree on this one. Yes, my start with Yakuza was 0, like a lot of people, since yeah, that was the breakthrough game that finally got the series some recognition outside of its niche (whether this continues to be a good thing is up in the air, but for now RGG is riding high), but going back and playing the old games as I’m able, I really don’t think Majima’s character evolution in 0 has butchered his character development in the slightest. If anything, I appreciate having some context as to why he’s woohoo wacky crazy man, rather than just having to accept that he’s woohoo wacky crazy man for reasons that would otherwise go unexplained.

But, that’s just my take. I don’t begrudge you feeling like he’s been butchered, it just happens to be that I go the other direction on it, is all.

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But the thing is, most of the things that you’ve mentioned as being problematic in the new world is something that you will have to deal with, whether you get back to Earth or not. So, yes you can get back to Earth and, if you play your cards right, get a decent life back, but you still will have to deal with most of the problems in the new world before you do that. So, considering you will(probably) get much more respect and love in the new world in addition to being an extremely powerful wizard, if you only help stopping the invasion, I’d say that the benefits to staying in the world seem much higher than the benefits of going back to Earth.

You’re certainly not a nobody at the start of your stay in the new world. Your reputation is enough to scare off a band of robbers, if you threaten to cast a magic spell. Yes, that reputation gets higher the more you succeed at the things you do, but at no point did I feel my character was disrespected, by the time of the festival, and even before that, I certainly felt that my character was respected by the populace in general. It’s also important to mention that your magical ability improves quite quickly, so it doesn’t take that long time before you can feel like a proper wizard.

And the point is, even though there certainly in the new world, I fail to see how those challenges are any worse than the ones your standard fantasy hero or heroine face. SInce you seem so annoyed by those challenges, I honestly wonder if that’s the way you feel about, Fantasy HGs or COGs or Fantasy games in general, since I can’t really see how those challenges are that much worse than the challenges of other Fantasy HGs or COGs. I could probably list plenty of COGs and HGs where you face at least as tough challenges or even worse or more brutal challenges than you do in The Last Wizard, so I wonder why The Last Wizard gets singled out for this barrage of criticism.

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Oh no. Don’t you start with that. Don’t you dare start hurling accusations at me just because of the way I view the general plot of one story. That I dislike the general plot of TLW is proof of nothing.

I respect your opinions on the game, that’s one thing. You play how you want to play, I play my way. But for you to sit there and try calling me out based on how I behave towards one game that I dislike, as though you have any real basis for that claim? Not cool. How dare you.

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Since you’re saying you’re playing the old games “as you’re able” - Have you played the original PS2 Yakuza 1 and 2? There already was a difference in terms of his characterization between the 2, but the thing is, Majima was anything but “woohoo wacky crazy man” back then. That’s exactly what the later entries turned him into. He always had a wild / mad, unpredictable side, sure, but he didn’t act wacky at all in the first entry and one of his most famous lines was actually “I’m always deadly serious” - and he was. He was voiced by Mark Hamill in the English version, which contributed to giving him some Joker vibes if anything. Have you played Kiwami 1 with the “Majima anywhere system”, where he literally crossdresses as a hostess and hides in manholes? They’ve turned him into a clown.

And I prefer leaving it up to your imagination instead of giving a cheesy origin story including a broken heart trope. He was a solid, maybe even good character in 0, but a lousy Majima.

But yeah, this is getting offtopic.

@Zyrios Is The Last Wizard the game where you can also romance that arrogant prince, and he thinks it’s just a publicity stunt so he plays along or something? And another RO is poly and you can only romance them along with some other person they’re seeing? If so, I was never able to win the final battle, no matter how well-prepared I thought I was and how often I tried. That prince always lost his head IIRC, and then I had enough at one point and gave up, and just let his body and head rot there for good.

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Not yet, no. While the series is available in its entirety on Xbox (my preferred platform), I’ve been trying to play my way through the games I already own before downloading anymore, otherwise I’ll just be stuck with half-complete game files all over the place. So I fully accept that my opinion is only half-informed, here, and that there’s a hefty chunk of details I’m missing at the moment.

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It is if you play DnD. :mage:

Now I’m a bit tempted to play this, even though I’m generally un-fond of isekais.

EDIT:

Pfft, fireball. That’s for losers. If I want something hurt, I haste the party member with the pointy stick.

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“I cast fireball!”

“Your entire party is within striking distance of-”

“I. Cast. Fireball.”

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I haven’t said that it was proof of anything. But I said that I failed to see how those challenges are any worse than the challenges of other HGs or COGs, for that matter. I know that we all respond to things differently, but your traditonal Fantasy quest does usually involve lots of really challenging things. Just think about Lord of the Rings for instance. Plenty of really tough stuff there for the protagonists to go through and it’s the same way with almost any kind of Fantasy adventure. And to take the example of another HG, the Wayhaven Chronicles, the first book involves you being captured by a psycho vampire who intends to use you as their involuntary “blood donor” for eternity. So I do honestly wonder what makes the challenges of The Last Wizard so much harder than the rest of those for you, because it’s not at all clear to me from what you wrote. If it’s hard to put in words or just something you feel, fair enough. But I do think that it’s a valid question.

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