Picturing the MC and RO mutually locking each other in a basement now.
…I need to use that.
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“Yielded”? After the MC hounded them into sex. Yuck…
And Ferrado still went on about power imbalances?
I never suggested NPCs should drop to the ground and take their pants off any time the MC snaps their fingers. What I said was that using “power imbalance” as an excuse to not be with the MC is lame and sounds like an excuse that amounts to them not wanting the MC. To be clear… that is fine. But at least have the balls to say so, instead of spouting power imbalances as an excuse. “I don’t want to fuck a slave” would be a perfectly acceptable way to put it, and were I playing, my MC would be done at that point.
I don’t care if it’s sex or no sex, if a supposed LI is constantly going on about how they can’t be with the MC, don’t want to be with the MC, making excuses about why they can’t while spouting how much they want to, they are not a legitimate LI to me, even if they do get to “kiss at the end”. Words mean very little to me when the actions contradict the words. Likewise, actions mean very little to me when the words contradict those actions. So they need to mesh, or I’ll believe whichever is the worst.
I don’t need edgy, but I need honest, and this isn’t honest. It would just annoy the hell out of me. Don’t tell me “we mustn’t” then want to make out. They can fuck right off with that. Do or do not, there is no try…
I would nope right out of that. I can’t stand “romances” where the NPC is constantly forced to beg for the LI to be with them (cough A cough). That’s not a romance, it’s torture, and there’s nothing you can get at the end to make it worth it to me. Sorry, being with Ferrado can’t be that good.
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OK! Having played it, I don’t get any sense of the MC having to beg etc, but I think we are not going to agree on this one; I get if something is a dealbreaker.
I do feel very strongly that there are less creepy ways of referring to an NPC sleeping with the MC than the NPC “yielding” to them.
This has probably wandered beyond what the thread was talking about so maybe it’s worth redirecting.
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Bwahahahahah, I didn’t mean that they should lock each other in a basement! XDD Sorry, English is not my native language, there might be some mistakes. I meant that the feelings must be mutual 
It’s a great idea, though… Two obsessed with each other and crazy characters are surely better than one. Okay, I definitely want to see something like this.
A MC in a text like this do not have the freedom of conversations that a real person have. A mc is limited to the choices they are given and the dialog written for them and can only ask the RO for intimacy of any kind if and when the author allows the player the choice to do so and the player then choose that choice for the MC.
If the author take the writing time and precious words count to make a choice, knowing that the NPC is not in a mood, there better be a good story reason for it. Because if there is not a good story reason for it, the author could have written anything else instead. Including other romance fluff that does not involve the naked tango - and most reader would have been just as happy with that.
Now, there can be good story reason for it. At the top of my head bg3, dao and pathfinder: WoR all have moments where a RO do not want to have sex for story reasons.
But if those story reason are weak at best it comes across as: Why did the writer waste time to even write the option to ask for sex here? At worst it comes across as a weird gotcha moment, or even worse moral preaching.
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Neither is it mine, but it wasn’t a language issue - I understood what you meant. My brain just… does that. And that image was just so delightful.
Because it could show something about the NPC, or lead to other kinds of intimacy, or open up conversation that could develop a relationship, or navigating a difficult conversation, or any number of reasons. I want to stress that I’m not saying people shouldn’t dislike that particular character or that interaction, or the game (I think the story reasons are fine, others don’t, that’s OK); but I do think that the idea of an allosexual NPC not wanting to sleep with an MC in an IF shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand.
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I know I am late so feel free to delete/move this if needed.
I never got the impression that Ferrado was not interested or was just stringing the MC along in Heart of Battle. I have not had a chance to go back to it since I finished it when it came out and also forgive me if I accidently say “she” since I played a male MC and female Ferrado only.
But it came across as Ferrado was hesitant, but still open about their feelings for the MC. Basically not wanting to be with them until a better time (sort of) like being bought by them or by them no longer being a slave some other way. Which is very reasonable in a situation where a person in Ferrado’s position would feel that way if they had feelings and did not want to do something they feel would be unethical. To me atleast.
Not to further make this off topic lol. But comparing this to someone like with “A” in Wayhaven where its more them not wanting to admit their feelings to themselves and the MC and therefore making the situation more unbearable/annoying since it could atleast be address by “A” blatantly telling, not just implying, that “A” does not want to let anyone in cause she is afraid of losing them. So it comes across as being strung along unlike Ferrado which is one of the reasons I liked Ferrado.
Uh to be more on topic before i’m tossed out of here lol
When it comes to toxic ROs, for me its a very delicate situation not only cause of the nature of toxic ROs usually featuring some form of abuse, but also because it kind of feels like it would be even more railroad-ey. It may only be me, but agency is a very big thing I like in stories to the point where I will drop or not even buy a game that has my character feeling like they are already a character. Meaning I don’t get to choose my characters attitude and outlook and how they respond to situations and usually stories that focus on toxic or grimdark story elements or backstories mean alot is already set and I won’t get to have say, the MC with a tortured or very crappy past still be optimistic or atleast not treat other people like crap and actively want to help others. Usually, the MC will already be sort of set as “shitty” person for lack of a better word lol and if i’m lucky I just get to pick the slightly less “shitty atittude” option.
So toxic ROs just makes me feel like the writer would feel the need to make the MC already be a certain way since some personalities would probably not even engage with the RO anyway depending on whatever toxic form the RO was in the story.
Not sure if, i’m making sense and sorry if this was too off topic.
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I tend to be ok with them, sometimes even enjoy them (Like I said elsewhere here I’m a huge sub 
). My two big no’s are one the author saying it’s a good thing. Second is it coming out of nowhere and there are no options out of it especially if it involves sexual hasesment or worse (I’m more ok with it if the game is upfront about it or if the game is all about it. Does not count in my eyes if a game is in a series and it’s not the first one, yes I’m talking about SoH 
)
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After reading the replies up to this point, I guess every game have been giving toxic relationship 
because we need to be the one doing the prodding at every turn and then and only then the ro would grace us with theirs in return
Maybe thats why I am craving the unhealthy where I would feel I am the ro whole world? Hahaha.
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Maybe. And, when you put it like that, I want the same thing!
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For me liking toxic romances is more of a morbid curiosity thing. I’m fascinated by characters of all types and if they are written well enough, a villain of a book, show or game could become my absolute favorite character, not because I think they’re a good person, but because I see them as a well-rounded three-dimensional character and can analyze and understand why they’ve made the decisions they’ve made.
It’s the same with toxic ROs making toxic decisions. It’s fun for me to try and understand why they’re making the decisions they do, discovering their backstory and using it to help solve the puzzle that is that character’s existence, and it’s also fun to make a character who you could see finding these ROs attractive, and creating reasons why your character would go down their route.
Jun(ko) is a very good case study of what I’m talking about. When you reach volume 4 and are stuck with her for the whole game, you can either embrace her madness or realize that you aren’t in love with her anymore and resist her. I remember my first playthrough I resisted, because I’d committed that character to Tosh and wanted to stay loyal, and Jun(ko)'s actions throughout the game left me genuinely uncomfortable as an abuse survivor myself because of how they were portrayed. It left me with a sour taste in my mouth for the volume, if I’m honest. Then I played the route where you rekindle your romance with them, and I discovered a whole new aspect to their story and witnessed them develop into a far less toxic person and I actually felt some sadness when we lost them.
That’s the power of good writing and a well-developed character. One playthrough I’ll hate their guts and the next I’ll be heartbroken to lose them. Long story short, toxic romances are like a car crash for me. I know they’re horrible, but they’re just so fascinating to observe that I can’t look away.
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Excuse me, where did I dismiss anything out of hand when I litterary came up with THREE seperate examples of an RO turning an MC down and said it had good story reasons. How dare you suggest that I dismissed anything out of hand?
I didn´t even mention the oft discussed NPC because quite frankly I have personally said what I wanted to say about that and anymore would just be bashing the character.
My POINT was that in the end up the day most players assume that when the author gives a choice of any kind, it is under the assumption that the choice is actually a choice. It is annoying to be told to choose between right and left and then be told “No, you do actually have to turn right.”
Now that might be good reasons for it, perhaps if the MC turn left they catch a glimpse of the big secret that they would not have otherwise, or perhaps the author meant to convey the futility of the situation - either way that kind of choices still needs to be use very sparesly or they are just frustrating to read.
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I don’t think they meant to suggest that. I think they were just summing up their position on the subject.
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I didn’t intend to imply that you specifically were completely dismissing it and was more trying to sum up what I thought in general, but I get that I didn’t put this across clearly. I understood that you had given examples of times where you found it fulfilling, but read the “Why did the writer waste time to even write the option to ask for sex here?” part (which I recognise wasn’t you saying you always feel that way) and focused on that bit generally rather than the other part of the post. I’m sorry for doing that.
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A hero will find a way to save both you and the world
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Maybe, but it is still nice to be the first pick and them being so hyper focused on keeping us safe they just fogot about the world, haha
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I haven’t played the game yet myself, but the impression I’ve gotten from the discourse around Ferrado, was always that the problem is mostly about expectations.
When a romance is set up to have a power imbalance, and that imbalance is shown in the early stages, that is likely to attract a lot of readers who actively seek out such content in their romances. I can definitely understand that it must then be frustrating to not only not get the expected pay-off to that set-up, but also have the RO moralize to you against the very thing you were looking forward to.
Doesn’t mean that the romance is necessarily bad, or that many people can’t enjoy it fine. But some people might end up with hurt feelings, and the experience of the game having attacked them personally, and not just their character.
Setting up the right expectations is important as an author, and it’s easy to become ‘blind’ to what you are actually communicating, because you know what your intentions were. it’s one of the reasons why having beta testers are so important.
If a RO arc (or any other plot thing) ends up going against the set up expectations, that should be a conscious choice on the author’s part to have a twist, not just because they accidentally made the readers have the wrong expectations.
And even then, it is likely to turn off some readers, when done in a romance.
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You can forget about the world, but does the world forget about you?
In rl situation? Oh easily 
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