Actually, I feel like we have had quite a lot of positive talk about ‘less healthy’ romances recently?
Though I might be completely misremembering that.
Or maybe it has been only in the adult section, which a lot of people might not be opted into participating in.
Anyway, I tend to like a lot of red flag romances, but usually the ones where said RO does have actual feeling for the PC, and respects them.
Also, it really has been too long since I played Mecha Ace.
At the risk of opening a can of worms, the forum does really have a problem with how insular and closed off it is, even more so since the exodus of users we had a couple years back. Most the threads, at least the most active ones, are kind of just the same clique making the same points and acting like a moral authority for the forum at large. Which really isn’t unusual for a forum in general, but the affect is amplified when the community is so small
To be more on topic, I’m always game for a story or narrative or romance with teeth, something that actually challenges me to engage with it. I like having to work my way through a text like that. I like messy interpersonal relationships, muddied and violent lines, adversarial stories and actual proper rivalries. You don’t get that as much with CoGs output, and while HG stuff tends to veer towards darker or more dramatic topics, a lot of it is still a bit afraid of having any teeth. Fallen Hero is a fandom darling and for good reason, it’s so good for how layered and complex the relationships in it can be.
I’ve an issue with how safe literature tends to have to be, both in general and here specifically, and how unwilling people are to engage with something for its own merits, before casting blank judgement of the authors and audience as a whole.
I’m on my lunch break, but I might add more to this later after having a think on it
I must admit, I have trouble thinking of this community as small, considering how much it has grown, since the days when I first started lurking here. 
But it’s true that a lot of people mainly pay attention to their favorite WIP threads, and don’t participate much in the more general discussions. Though I do always see people popping in, that I don’t recognize/remember, even if a lot of posts are by ‘the usual suspects’.
And while there are people here I pretty much always agree with, and people I usually disagree with, most is a bit more of a mixed bag, and my experience isn’t that there’s a lot of things that all the regulars agree on.
Hard agree.
With that whole point.
I don’t know, that’s probably a very subjective experience, based on what kind of literature each person engage with?
A lot of the books I have read have been quite unafraid of exploring seriously dark topics, even when said books have not been considered dark in genre.
But then, there’s of course people for whom nothing can really be dark and gritty enough, so again, very subjective.
This actually makes me wonder: what do all of you consider to be a “toxic” RO? I have a feeling we all may have different definitions for this term.
For example, I see a lot of people poo-pooing jealousy. I like it and it should be present in some romances and from some characters. Is it messy? Yes. It is pretty? Nope, it’s an ugly emotion, but it’s a very human one that we’ve all felt on occasion. I’d love to see it more frequently in romances and, more importantly, see it addressed.
I also see people freak out over possessiveness. Like, if a LI says something along the lines of “you’re mine” or “I’m yours”, they are painted to be the devil incarnate. I don’t get that. It’s not a declaration of ownership (in general, at least, but characters like Jun/Ko mean it as such), and is merely a “you belong with me” statement instead of a “I own you, bow down!” statement.
And, really, possessiveness and jealousy tend to go hand in hand, many times. To me, they don’t automatically turn a LI from acceptable to a toxic psycho. In fact, I like seeing this all-to-human emotions from LIs as well as MCs. Even if it’s presented in a “toxic” manner (i.e., LI is trying to control MC’s life, sabotaging friendships to isolate them, etc.), if it’s done well and the LI can grow, it could prove to be an interesting journey.
For me, toxic LIs tend to give constant mixed signals, are psychologically, physically, or emotionally abusive (doesn’t matter if it’s intentional or not), treat the MC with little or no respect, or force the MC to do things they don’t want to do. And, even then, I may like it–after all, that’s the crux of yandere VNs, many of which I adore.
Durian raccoons where affection is clearly not mutual, no matter how the game tries to convince me otherwise.
Toxic RO for me is someone with whom romance feels like an one-sided tug of war, someone who’s happy to hoist all of his problems on MC and use them only when it’s convenient.
It can be an interesting story with such people if such things are acknowledged, but oftentimes they’re not. It’s someone who acts like an utter ass, lacks any chemistry with MC, has no response to their attempts to pursue the romance with him and clearly doesn’t treat them kindly while the game tries to convince me that he totally loves me, yah, just need to get icebreaking equipment people at Artic colonies use to break through the crust of his heart.
No affection, no chemistry, shitty behaviour and narrative trying to convince me that the sky is green is what makes me call a LI toxic. You, such an LI, aren’t even willing to throw away your plans of plunging humanity into endless war for the man you love, you’re no Hawkins! You’re just a cunt with too much pretence!
Yeah, that’s the psychologically and emotional abuse I was referring to. One-sided romances are about the most toxic thing these games can have–and they are not rare.
Yes!! And yes, the durian raccoon is definitely one of these…
I love those possessive and jealousy type in ro, they make the narrative more delicious for me as then i feel ‘special’ in a way. I just want that to be amplified, hostaging my feeling, manipulative, gaslighting. I think as long as the toxic trait is around psychological and emotional abuse i’d love it.
Physical abuse not so much. I am more selective around that toxic trait I guess
I think there’s a distinction between what I think of as a toxic relationship, and what’s deemed a Toxic Relationship™ in a discussion. Like certain paths of Ortegamancing I would call toxic – two co-dependent liars jerking each other around, keeping secrets from each other (and that’s before we get into the physical assault). But that said, it’s not a Toxic Relationship™, and I’d never think of Ortega as a toxic RO, despite the fact that Ortega and Sidestep could probably benefit from mandatory couples counseling.
Like when we say Toxic RO/Toxic Relationship, we always jump to The Controlling, Jealous, Possessive kind of toxicity, the love interest in any Mafia Boss/Billionaire CEO romance novel. Then that gets downgraded to the Just Kind of A Jerk RO that crops up a lot. That’s who gets the toxic label – really overt, red flags waving, control freaks and possessive dominant personalities (invariably contrast against the meeker MC I know you hate Chani). I kind of wish there was more variety, more spice in the range of what flaws were displayed. Hannah said something similar:
Like there should 110% be a range between “wholesome” and “toxic” – but also we should recognize that “toxic” comes in a lot of different forms, and we’re all kind of doing ourselves a disservice by limiting our depictions of bad behavior to a few recognizable patterns.
There’s a big difference between a toxic RO I enjoy and one I don’t enjoy, and I guess that’s because of the ways those toxic traits are expressed! (Or which ones on the long list are selected, tbh.)
Ones I don’t enjoy reading are typically uninterested in the MC, in the sense that while they might be attracted to them on paper, it isn’t something you feel or really see on the page. There’s little affection between the RO and the MC, no devotion at all, and their likely bad treatment of the MC is sort of… Hoisted on to them with little or no explanations.
A character who mistreats the MC for something out of their control, who shows little remorse for it (or never acts upon it) and who nobody ever steps into stop or defend the MC against isn’t enjoyable to me as a romance option, even if I might come to like them as a character outside of it. And I’m a big fan of the classic “tsundere” archetype in otome, but I guess that might be because they usually show their soft spots much more often?
I can enjoy a degree of downright verbal abuse from RO in fiction, but the limit for me is if they never feel a shred of guilt for it or cannot be argued against. It’s miserable wet cat red flag x semi-normal guy or red flag x red flag that does it for me, not red flag x a poor guy who should consider couple’s therapy stat.
The ones I do enjoy reading are typically more on the “so horrifically in love with the MC that their morals start to get a little wonky (or preferably, were wonky even before, and are now getting worse)” side. Jealousy, obsessiveness, and possessive tendencies are completely fine, but even better if they feel bad about it and have to “reason” with themself to not feel guilty.
If the RO is somewhat dependent on the MC and the MC is also somewhat dependent on them in return, that’s perfect for me. It’s just two mutually deranged people tackling the world together, or taking each other down because they don’t want to ever have to live without the other.
(On a side note, I think this is why I especially like toxic queer stories. Most of them are written in a way that adds a layer of secrecy and fear to bonds that often makes them stronger yet more volatile. When someone is the only one in a judgmental, possibly dangerous town who can understand why your idea of love is the way it is, and therefore becomes the only one you can trust, no matter how bad they may be for you-- that’s love, maybe, but it’s also codependency. All I’m saying is read The Summer Hikaru Died. /lh)
Admittedly, yeah, it’s a very subjective take.
This is sort of a broad criticism I’m levelling at stuff like… When there’s an age gap in a romance and the author hammers home the point that they’re obviously both consenting adults, they’re both well into adulthood and it’s totally morally okay. Where the whirlwind romance between a pirate and the kidnapped Governor’s daughter has to grind to a halt to stop and explain the issues of consent or how these are pirates who’ve obviously never murdered and pillaged and otherwise, so the romance isn’t tainted by anything that could be considered problematic.
I know I’ve seen complaints about a Gladiatorial title that’s being written where the issue of consent between a warrior slave and a master comes up in an obtuse way, and feels like trying to have their slave romance without any of the baggage.
I’m all for giving topics and things the diligence they’re due, treating them with care and respect they deserve, but sometimes it feels like people are so afraid to engage with certain narratives unless it’s dissected with therapy speak and kid gloves.
This is, admittedly, a bit dramatic of a take and I’ll own that, but sometimes you just gotta accept that certain narratives inherently come with certain baggage, and it’s better to just accept it than to try and moralize it
Alrighty I’m back to my shift, thank you for coming to my poorly structures Ted Talk
Not just a warrior slave. In some cases, like mine, MC was dishonourably discharged straight into the arena for killing another man in an illegal duel. He’s a criminal, an absolute and utter ass and a hunk of muscles and rage who mainly cares about getting out.
It was very, very Immersion-breaking to see this type of character reacting to power imbalance™ speech in the same way a person on twitter named astarion’s personal bloodbag would after reading a long-ass thread about writing office romances correctly.
I LOVE YOUR TAKE 🫰🏽
Honestly, sometimes I i feel like the setting’s promising, and then got slapped by the need to add consent
It’s not like I don’t understand that it is important and everything, but sometimes it contradict the ro that I am pursuing and suddenly the relationship become ‘healthy’ ish because of it
This actually stopped me from playing that game. I don’t care if my MC is a slave–having the “owner” refuse sex because of a power imbalance is the most ridiculous bullshit I’ve heard lately. Taking the MC’s ability to decide for themselves who they want to fuck is the very definition of power imbalance–the asshole wasn’t even giving the MC credit for being adult enough to know who they want to do.
Along the same lines, I found it utterly ridiculous that M (in Wayhaven) will turn the MC down for sex if they have even had one drink. The MC isn’t a child and doesn’t have the alcohol tolerance of a toddler. I could see if the MC is stumbling down drunk (I saw too many girls in college decide theh next day that they didn’t want to bang, despite saying yes at the time), but one drink? I found it disrespectful to the MC for M to do that, and wish the MC had been able to tell them off about it. “If you don’t want to fuck me, have the balls enough to say so instead of blaming it on me–a full-grown adult–having one lousy drink.”
While I’m on that topic, I’m sick of the whole broken record of “consent”. If my MC has banged someone and is totally into the physicality of it, she doesn’t need her LI looking for or asking permission any time he wants to put an arm around her or get close. Or hell, even kiss. That gets annoying to read and ruins the “moment”, a lot of times.
Keep in mind that not everyone is comfortable writing said teeth, afraid isn’t always the reason.
Unless the LI means that as “I own you no matter what you want”, I wouldn’t call that possessiveness. Words are weird.
Hmmm. You know, I can really agree with this. It’s something I’ve seen pop up in WIP authors quite a bit, the conversation around being “uncomfortable” writing jealousy or anything like it. I find that interesting because it’s my experience that this space, as niche as it is, tends to be rather emotionally intelligent. I think we all know better than to demonize normal human emotions. I understand disliking jealous or possessive behaviors and not wanting to write that, but I agree with you that I’m not sure where the demonization of jealousy in general came from in this space.
Maybe because fandoms can tend to be a bit Unhinged and it turned some writers off.
It is small I mean on Reddit, on one page, there’s like 20-30 people posting. I can’t even remember half of them. But here is like you and @Niki_Christopherson @HarrisPS @love4tae @Jacic @JBento @AletheiaKnights @Eiwynn @Sally_Forth @will @LiliArch
That’s about it lol. Maybe 10-11 people? the rest don’t post all that much.
You’re looking for Seven Days in Purgatory.
I don’t think it’s abandoned. The author is still around the forums, and he said in April he’s still working on it. He’s just decided not to update it again until it’s finished. It’s absolutely one of my favorites as well.
I have two favorite love interests that fit the bill for me of what I like in a toxic romance option.
Kirishima from Raise wa Tanin ga Ii
Jun from Cheese in the Trap
Both of these men are incredibly odd, intelligent and manipulative individuals. Like you get eerie feelings from the both of them even though the story tries to paint them in a kinda positive light. It’s hilarious because almost everyone in their respective stories see that something is wrong with them, that they’re not normal at all. They both have ruined lives of the people around them with little to no care and Kirishima has murdered multiple people like it’s another Tuesday for him. But the thing I like about them is how much they love their girls, their absolute terrors to everyone else around them.
Plus their toxicity is very subtle and “kind”, it’s not in your face but you can feel its eerieness. Basically I like quiet sociopaths. Hell if N was like that I would totally put their route higher in my list cough
The community is still small, but it’s kinda become a “large town”. I don’t know if anyone’s lived in a large country town, but it kind of has this weird inbetween the small town everyone knows everyone and (in this case at least) tended to be quite supportive and interactive with eah other, and the city everyone does as they like. there’s a lot of variety, and individuals find their own tribe so to speak. It’s kind of in that grouping stage. (I don’t know how else to describe it, but you see some things are very popular and they eclipse anything else and influence how the community as a whole can function.) It’s MUCH larger than when I first joined. Sometimes I feel like I no longer fit in here as what I most enjoy reading and writing doesn’t seem to gel with what is popular in general. We also see a lot less experimental stuff in general now. Smaller WIPs tend to get buried and the big ones get most of the attention making it harder for a lot of authors to get their first games out compared to when I first joined. (I got a lot of community support with my first game.)
Totally agree with this. Just because something is considered popular, doesn’t mean that everyone wants to write it. Trying to write something you don’t enjoy or are not comfortable with is a great way to get subpar writing or abandoned WIPs when it gets too much for the author to deal with. This kind of circles back to my point about only certain things being popular and that becoming the expected norm instead of variety being the spice of life.
Reddit seems to have a very different feel to it compared to the main forums. Lots of memes and discussions about the main popular games there. A bit of general discussion, some of it quite open and frank (I seems like people are less likely to hold back in opinions there). Pretty much nothing on the beta testing fronts unless it’s to comment on the progress of the bit WIPs. It is a much smaller group I agree and has a different purpose 
(And you forgot @hustlertwo who I think posts more than all of us put together 
)
I tend to really enjoy reading about more messy relationships, but a lot of CoG and HG labels don’t do it for me, because I feel like a lot of them assume the reader/the MC has a desire to make the relationship healthy?
Like, they assume I’m there for the slow realization of bad behavior and turning into a better person, but it usually doesn’t work because the RO is such an asshole that. Why would I work to make this person better they are so far down AND resist and give absolutely no work in return 
… that’s WHY I’m romancing them let our characters spiral together!!! If they want to insult me or talk down to me I would like to have the option to deck them in the face and then kiss about it, instead of being hurt and sad for a while!! If the RO is trying to be controlling and possessive I would like to be able to exhibit those behaviors too! (or alternatively Physically Attack them about it and not IMMEDIATELY GET OUR SHIT WRECKED.)
I think this ties into a larger problem I have with less healthy relationships in IF, which is that it always feels like the MC is a victim and never the aggressor, and even when they DO try to fight back just as dirty, it’s only ever brushed off as like. An annoying dog barking back. I want a negative relationship where both sides actually have a foot in the negativity. They should make EACHOTHER worse, not just one to the other. Relationships are a two way street and all, y’know? Let my MC “win” sometimes. Let them get a one-up on the RO. Let my MC emotionally scar them too. If it’s just pages and pages of getting beat down and every time you try to strike back you’re humiliated… ehh. No thanks.