Disliked Elements, Mechanics, and Tropes

This is a minor gripe, but at times it’s a pain in the ass to figure out things in the field of interpersonal relationships in a language without polite “you”. Sure, you can subsist Mister for “вы” or “Sie”, but at times it would feel clunky, so you’re left only with this singular you. It can be a polite you, it can be an inpolite you, you will never ever really know for sure. There are indicators, but it’ll never really feel like it’s enough to fully indicate what sort of you was meant by the author.

Maybe it’s just ESL thing, but it keeps bugging me to see the same you in a polite conversation between strangers and when MC’s love interest pours their heart out right on the main character’s lap. What are the ways to differentiate between these different types of "you"s in English?

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I mean, it’s not that difficult after a while. There is a ton of things to indicate a more formal setting. Sir/ma’am, mr/ms, polite phrases like “may you?” instead of “can you?”, " I would like" instead of “I want”, plus body language which can be described by the author.

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Can’t remember the name of the Comedian but there is a skit about how hearing “Sir” is different based on where you’re from. In Europe, you generally hear it as a term of respect. In North America, you hear it when you’ve done something wrong. And how badly you messed up is marked by how many times you hear the word in a sentence.

This kind of reminds me of the dialogue trope of constantly referring to someone by their familial relationship as opposed to their name. It always struck me as funny growing up watching foreign stuff even though I know it’s just the difference between languages and cultures.

With formal vs informal dialogue, there really isn’t much of a difference in English (at least in my opinion anyway). It’s generally just extra words to indicate the person has a sign of respect (like Sir as opposed to the person’s name). You can kind of think of Formal as the language/behaviour of going to a job interview (keeping eye contact, referring to the interviewer by their title, not fidgeting/shaking leg, etc).

And it also does remind me of another game mechanic I dislike (this thread is reminding me of pet peeves a lot lol) and that’s forced nicknames from NPCs. Especially if they’re ROs. I’m not someone’s babe or sweetheart, thanks. I will wholeheartedly admit that there are some characters that it works for (like a-hole types who are trying to get a rise of characters) but I honestly prefer the option of being able to tell someone not to call me something other than the name I put in.

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Context and delivery are major factors in how the word “you” comes across. Since you can’t hear delivery in written text, it’s largely about context; in the moment context of the situation, as well as the larger context of the relationship of characters involved.

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Forced “pet names” definitely suck. If I’m forced to enter a nickname, it’s always just the same as the name I’ve already chosen for that character.

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It’s a matter of politeness in the southern US as well. Not universal of course, but it’s frequently drilled into children much like ‘please’ and ‘thank you’.

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Just as a side note, this is precisely what keeps me from enjoying superhero comics and the reason I decided not to continue after finishing certain Batman series: The obsession with keeping the status quo ultimately means that no development can truly happen in virtually any level. Characters are so iconic at this point that they will always return with the same worries, flaws, virtues and conflicts again and again.

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Of course, we used to have “thou” as the informal “you,” but that went out of use centuries ago, and most English-speakers nowadays don’t know anything more than that “thou” (or “thee,” which is often used interchangeably :grimacing:) is an old-timey word for “you.” If anything, most English-speakers think it sounds a little more formal, just because they associate it with the Bible and Shakespeare (and they inappropriately associate the Bible and Shakespeare with high formality).

The truth is that to native speakers of English, the idea that you’d need a different way to say “you” based on your relationship to the person you’re addressing seems as absurd as the idea of gendering inanimate objects, or the idea that female body parts can be grammatically masculine, or changing the ending of a common noun to indicate whether it’s the subject or object of the sentence (even though we have inflected pronouns). The closest thing we have in contemporary English to a “thou/you” distinction is the use of first names. I know in Russian it’s standard for, say, a child to address her teacher by given name and patronymic, but in English, a child addressing a teacher by his first name would be rude. It used to be pretty much standard practice to address a person by title and surname (“Mr. Smith”) unless addressing a family member or a social inferior such as a child or servant, or until a certain level of closeness developed, after which two people were on a “first-name basis.” These days, however, the respectful use of surname address seems to be falling out of favor, and everyone’s on a first-name basis. I feel more comfortable with there being some kind of linguistic distinction - perhaps for psychological reasons that are too complicated to get into here - but I am very much in the minority among English-speakers in 2023.

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For many of us, hymnody also plays a role. When you meet it mainly in “Thou, O Lord,” or “O Lord my God, how great Thou art,” it’s hard to relearn it as informal. :slight_smile:

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I grew up with the hymns too - I remember being little enough that I thought “How Great Thou Art” was all about how wonderful God’s artwork was. (Which, of course, it is, that’s just not what “how great thou art” means.) But I also had a mother who taught me when I was a child that the word translated “Our Father” in the Lord’s Prayer was actually closer in meaning to “Daddy.” So I was comfortable with the concept of addressing God in the informal before I knew what the informal was. Although I admit I was a little surprised when I began to study Spanish and I learned it was very much the done thing to tutear al Señor.

And of course, there was a time when God and my ancestors were on a first-name basis. Well, at the time of course it was an only-name basis. But it wasn’t God who told them the Name was too sacred to speak. They came up with that on their own.

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I hate the trope of the bodybuilder/MMA fighter/football player/jacked athletic guy the writer was jealous of in high school being big, dumb and a complete asshole (A lot of the time they’re only big and dumb).

I also hate the trope of bodybuilders being portrayed as weak (I blame those shredded guys on youtube that worship Zyzz and refuse to bulk because they want to keep their rat pack). A lot of Bronze and Silver era guys were strength freaks so I assume it’s from guys being drained after preparing for a contest or somethin’

The problem with making characters “big and dumb” (or “big, dumb, and a complete asshole”) is they often end up being caricatures and one-note characters. If they’re there to serve a very specific purpose to the story, maybe they could work, but that’s not something that makes a compelling character.

As far as bodybuilders being portrayed as weak, that’s just a fundamental misunderstanding of how any of it works. The aforementioned “shredded Zyzz worshippers” who refuse to do anything to actually put on mass aren’t representative of actual bodybuilders, even modern ones. Sure, they might not be putting up the same massive 1RMs as pro powerlifters, but they’re by no means weak.

Maybe I’m stupid, but when have bodybuilders ever been portrayed as weak? Serious question - I feel as if I must have missed something major here.

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I don’t think that’s really true in general. While the Captain Marvel comics may not have been that popular, AFAICT, She-Hulk and Wonder Woman have always been popular characters and they seem to me to fit the definition of girl-boss just as well as Captain Marvel.

But I agree with you that

And I will go even farther and say that, at least in western media, it’s hard to find stories with a male MC/protagonist who is softer/more feminine than (the male) average, where a) he isn’t (mainly) a victim b) this isn’t (mainly) played for laughs or c) the writers or other creators of the media overcompensates for making him softer and more feminine than average and make him physically powerful, a great fighter, give him plenty of traditional masculine virtues as well or in other ways seemingly try to water down him being softer and more feminine as much as possible.

And just like there are girls and women out there who are tougher and more assertive and should get representation and possible role models, there are certainly also guys out there who are softer than average and should get both more representation and possible role models instead of de facto being told by the stories to toughen up and that you will be victim or a figure of fun unless you know how to fight and/or are physically powerful.

To give you one example from a particular media and genre: I’ve read a lot of fantasy books and series. But while the proportion of MCs who aren’t big, strong, male warrior heroes has increased, there are still not that many male MCs who succeed mainly through their softer qualities, such as kindness,compassion, listening to other people and maybe also healing magic. Yes, the number of trickster MCs(including male ones), who are neither physically powerful nor particularly good at fighting has certainly increased, which I think is a good thing. But the number of male MCs who are softer than average and where they are neither mainly a victim, a figure of fun or have so many traditionally masculine qualities or warrior MC skills and attributes that their softer qualities are watered down in a major way is still really low. I would have liked to see more male fantasy MCs who are like Skeeve in the Myth series, who succeeds through caring about his friends and other people he meets, seeing the best in other people and thinking outside the box rather than being physically corageous,assertive and good at fighting. But that’s a kind of MC that still seems to be quite rare,unfortunately. From what I can see,(western) comics, tv series and movies don’t really seem to be that much better and I can’t really think of a current western media and genre where things are that much better, tbh.

There have been women here earlier complaining that there aren’t enough heroines who are heroines precisely because of softer and more traditionally feminine qualities. But there are even fewer male heroes who are like that, so I do suspect there is a kind of general prejudice among many writers and other media creators that say that a hero can’t be too soft. Which in turn may be connected to how many genres tend to have their happy endings come about through violence. For some genres, like action I can understand it and see that it would probably be hard to imagine stories made in that genre where violence wasn’t an essential part. But for other genres, like fantasy for instance, there’s really nothing essential about the heroes getting their happy ending through the use of violence and it would be interesting to see more writers exploring other ways of resolving their stories. Don’t get me wrong, though, I’m not saying that violence should never be an important part of the plot and resolution in fantasy stories, but I am saying that it would be nice if the proportion of fantasy stories that didn’t get their resolution through the use would be greater than it is now. This is actually one area where I think regular COGs have often been quite good, since it is actually quite often possible to get a nice ending without using violence, at least compared to stories that aren’t interactive.

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You’ve probably heard this one before, but book Aragorn is close to what you’re talking about. Yes he’s also a fighter and survivalist and other typically masculine traits, but those don’t overpower his softer side. He loves singing and poetry, he cries with and for his friends, he seeks communication and unity with his allies, and he even has healing hands which he puts to use multiple times. Even if that does meet the criteria you’re talking about it is only one example so I’m not trying to discredit your point. I just have to rep my man Aragorn whenever I can lol.

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If you want a softer male hero out of that particular series, you’re looking for Samwise Gamgee.

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A million percent true. I got so caught up with pushing Aragorn I forgot the real hero Sam.

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Aragorn isn’t really the kind of male MC I was looking for. While he certainly has a softer side, which is good, he’s more of a tough and strong warrior MC with a softer side, which wasn’t really what I was talking about. AFAICR he doesn’t really succeed mainly through his softer qualities rather than through more traditional warrior qualities. He’s still a complex and good character, who certainly avoids the alpha male stereotype and is in many ways ahead of his time,all of which I appreciate

[quote=“KZV, post:3630, topic:9368”]
If you want a softer male hero out of that particular series, you’re looking for Samwise Gamgee.
[/quote] Sam Gamgee, on the other hand, on the other hand, is a character that I’ll say totally fits with what I’m looking for and I’ll also think Frodo is that kind of character. Both of those characters mainly gets their victories/successes through softer qualities, such as kindness, compassion and self-sacrifice rather than through fighting and qualities that have traditionally been considered to be masculine.

I will also say that both Aragorn, Frodo and Sam shows how Tolkien in many ways were way ahead of his time and also ahead of many of the authors who were most directly inspired by him. IMHO, most of the fantasy authors who were most directly inspired by him kept the least interesting tropes and other aspects of his work, such as the war against the powerful dark lord and his vast armies and left out the most interesting ones, such as heroes with softer qualities being just as important as warriors and other characters with great power when it comes to getting the happy ending, compassion and kindness being important qualities in themselves and also been shown to be essential qualities of “the true king”, the heroes being from many different fantasy races/species and even short and physically weak people being just as heroic in their own way as the warriors. I could go on, but I think I’ll stop there, forum members should feel free to add anything that they feel also should be mentioned. The point is, anyway, while there certainly are aspects and tropes introduced or popularized by Tolkien that have been overused since then and have become (at least kind of) fantasy clichès, there are also plenty of tropes in and aspects of Tolkien’s work that haven’t really been used by that many fantasy writers since then and that I’d certainly like to see used by more fantasy writers.

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A post was merged into an existing topic: It’s not my fault I’m a crumbling mess

Don’t forget about Faramir!

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