Disliked Elements, Mechanics, and Tropes

[Zyrios]

@maveric619

Also also when they expect you to remember something that was mentioned once 2 hours ago and you have to type it in.

Oh dude. Legit, in the game Live-A-Live, there’s a segment where you play as a robot on a spacecraft where the crew are slowly but surely getting killed off by a sentient AI, and that AI disguises itself as you at one point and forces you into a “who’s the real robot” scenario where you, no joke, have to remember the first name your inventor tried to call you at the very beginning of that segment (it’s decided that his pick sucks and you get to name yourself instead), which, because of all the puzzle solving and back-and-forth traveling all over the ship in the meantime, could have been anywhere in the range of five hours ago.

And if you get it wrong (Which you almost certainly will), the one soldier dude on the ship who already doesn’t like you SPRINTS over to you and blows you apart with a shotgun, and if I’m remembering correctly, there’s no chance to save anywhere close to that point, so if you get killed, you get to do it all over again!

Yeah, there’s… a few reasons why Live-A-Live went relatively unsung for its time, I’m thinking.

@CookieMuncher

Choosing a side over which character you agree with.

It suckkkks big time and when I get presented with this situation I don’t pick a side because that’ll make the relationship tank like crazy and when they do have a “Don’t choose a side option.” They freaking pick on you or glare at you instead because yes that’s what I want making TWO characters mad at me instead of one.

The one CoG where you’re a thrall (read: slave laborer) and wind up raising a gryphon (which is unambiguously made out to be treason because gryphon riders are the top of society and thralls having any sort of power at all is seen as a threat to that power structure) comes to mind for me, there.

There’s a point in the story where a fellow thrall is in danger, but so is this asshole gryphon rider who’s been treating you like crap the whole story so far, and you have to choose which of them to save.

There’s an obvious correct answer - split your allies to equally assist both - but if you choose one side exclusively instead, you’re marked as an utter traitor to the other side and any relationship you’ve built up with them completely flatlines for the rest of the story.

[Phenrex]

Honestly? The thing that confused me about the enemy to lovers trope for Royal Affairs was how Blaine did it so much better in the book before. Mind you, I found Blaine insufferable, but at the very least they had an actual reason to be spiteful toward the MC considering how the MC’s family more or less ruined their life leading up to the start of the game.

Like, Blaine is freshly an adult, the idea that they would still feel raw about it makes sense.

I just wish more of the time with a ‘enemy to lover’ story they would have the RO be a genuinely good person who just happens not to like you. Seeing humanizing moments for them where they aren’t a prick because they don’t realize you are there would go a massive way in making the idea of romancing them more appealing. They might even have good reason to not like you, and vise versa, there is ways to make it work.

Edit: Also, Hannah you are amazing, don’t take this as me hating your work! I am just saying, I feel Javi’s characterization is something that can be hard to empathize with. I do wish there was the option to be genuinely mean at the wedding to slight them out of spite, in order to give Javi an actual reason to be pissed. Maybe the MC was feeling pressured regarding the proposed marriage between them and Javi? They act out intentionally to gain Javi’s ire while they are really indifferent about Javi other than not wanting to marry them. Acting out in order to try to draw distance between them before they could eventually figure out that maybe the reason they were against it was not because it was Javi but rather due to the external pressures.

[HarrisPS]

Please don’t worry about hurting my feelings, but I would love to discuss this aspect (and consider amending things in the game while beta testing is happening) more on the Royal Affairs thread as I wouldn’t want to create a chilling effect or monopolise things over here

I definitely agree that Blaise’s resentment towards the MC, while not entirely fair, is more reasonable than Javi’s

[Bamboli_Boi]

New to this thread so this might have been talked about to death, but I hate how the characters in most games (pc and npc) are so easily able to shrug off seeing a person die or able to kill someone themselves and by the next chapter they are fine. I understand that having a chapter dedicated to dealing with the immense trauma that is killing another person might ruin the flow but the act of killing ruins the flow of your life so to speak so it wouldnt be to out of place and I also understand that many deaths take place in parts of stories where if you slow down you will die but a person needs time to compartmentalize what they have done or seen or they will breakdown very quickly especiallyif the death was especially traumatic. Along with this I very heavily dislike the trope of the cold on the outside killer with a soft inside like those people dont exist you dont get to be a tender person and someone that is able to callously take anothers life without a second thought if these characters were a little less 2 dimensional and had to deal with the huge levels of PTSD killing people will give to pretty much anyone that has taken a life they would be so much more believable and relatable and when they are ROs bearable because nothing is a bigger turnoff than seeing a potential partner treating other humans like they are pieces of meat. Anyway again so sorry if this is an overdone shpiel.

[Havenstone]

Not an overdone complaint at all. I also find it troubling when an MC can kill without emotional impact – I think it’s part of the myths of easy, redemptive violence that suffuse our culture.

At the same time, I think there’s a huge culturally constructed element in how we respond to ending a life. As plausible as it is that killing someone would universally be experienced as trauma, I’m not convinced that’s the way the evidence points.

Fireside Friday: April 24, 2020

As for the juxtaposition of brutality and “softness,” I’ve seen firsthand that men who regularly engaged in horrific violence (whether mercs fighting in Africa or Afghan insurgents) can also be capable of great tenderness.

Seems to me that there are lots of ways that a society can insulate individuals from the psychological consequences of killing someone, through e.g. myth and ritual and deeply inculcated values.

My objection to myths of redemptive violence, in the end, isn’t that they don’t work. They do, and societies at every scale can be built around them. Rather, I want us to find better myths. And I think the collective quest for those myths entails making ourselves more vulnerable to the full implications of ending a life.

[Nemureru_Mori]

There’s a game mechanics in choicescript games I dislike which is quite common.

At some point in the story we are given a list of options to choose from - it can be activities to do, characters to talk to, questions to ask, etc. But the game doesn’t clearly specify whether we’re able to choose all options from the list or only part of it, and how many, if not all. Sometimes the game has an indicator of how many things are left to do, but it can be too vague, like “you have a little bit of time left, what are you going to do next.” Does this mean I only have one more choice left? Two more?

I understand limitations for the sake of replayability and realism, but I wish games were more explicit about things like that, because it can mess up my playthrough. Also I love to save the best for last, and it’s hard to do that if I don’t know when the “last” is going to be.

[Zyrios]

Even the stories that just tell me, “you have enough time for one more activity,” I can at least respect them for informing me of what my deadline is.

[Dragomer]

I’ve played a few WiP that were even worse where some of the activities passed times while others didn’t with no indication of that. Or some where you could do them all but only in a specific order, otherwise you couldn’t do them all.

[Elsee]

Yea, in my defense i wrote this when I was 18 or younger maybe? Tbh i didn’t look at my own post/date bcoz i vaguely remember writing in this thread and the thought of the words and my mentality at that time is making me fully body cringe. Im 24 rn, still a bonehead but I like to think I’m less of a bonehead soo yea. Definitely a cringe era right there.

Edit: I just now realized im replying to a 2019 post lol idk y the notifs just showed up.

[Lan]

I realize this is the opposite of what I’ve seen a lot of people asking for, but personally I’m not a huge fan of differences in romance scenes based on the PC’s or NPCs’ sexuality/gender. Or more precisely, I’m not a huge fan of the implementations of it I’ve seen.

DISCLAIMER: I’m going to use Wayhaven as an example, because I find it’s easier to talk about concrete pieces of text. This isn’t meant to disparage Wayhaven and it’s far from the only game I have this issue with. But more people are familiar with it, so I think it works best for example purposes.

I know a lot of people feel having differences adds to the immersion, but a lot of times I just find it frustrating or puzzling.

---

Take this scene with Morgan/Mason — here’s how it plays out if your detective is a straight man:

“You sure you want to find out, Detective?” ${m_she} asks, voice silky and smooth. “Are you really sure?” It’s a little difficult to breathe as she stares intensely up at me.

I thin my lips as ${m_she} grabs a cherry, pops it into ${m_his} mouth, smirks…and then just walks away, hips swaying as she goes.

I let out the breath I’d been holding, leaning an elbow on the bar to keep myself steady.

And here’s how it plays out for all other detectives:

“You sure you want to find out, Detective?” ${m_she} asks, voice low and smooth. “Are you really sure?” It’s a little difficult to breathe beneath the intensity of ${m_his} sudden, stormy-grey gaze.

I bite my lip as ${m_she} leans towards me, inching closer than expected. But ${m_she} only reaches behind me, grabs a cherry, pops it into ${m_his} mouth, smirks…and then just walks away.

I let out the breath I’d been holding, almost melting onto the bar to keep myself standing.

Does Morgan not sway her hips at female and non-binary detectives? Or do they just not notice?

Why does a straight male detective not turn into a puddle of goo but a bi or gay one does?

I just find it confusing.

---

The detective’s gender occasionally determines which options are available to them. For example, this choice relating to Ava/Adam:

• Stumble on a reply and try stop the blush ${a_his} gaze pulls from me. “Well, uh, thanks….” (Female/Non-Binary option)

• Stumble on a reply and try stop the shiver ${a_his} gaze pulls from me. “Well, uh, thanks….” (Male option)

Or this choice with Nat/Nate:

• $!{name} meets ${n_his} eye and says, “I’ll have to pass out more often if you’re going to hold me like this.” (Female/Non-Binary option)

• $!{name} meets ${n_his} eye and says, “I’ll have to pass out more often if I get to wake up in this position.” (Male option)

Or this other choice with Nat/Nate:

• “Are you trying to make me swoon, Agent?” (Female option)

  My lips curl into a smile wider than ${n_his}, and I glance up at ${n_him} under my lashes. “You wouldn’t be trying to make me swoon now, would you, Agent?”

  “Is it working?” ${n_she} asks.

  I bite my lip before replying. “Definitely.”

  “Then yes,” ${n_she} says, leaning even closer and making my breath stutter. “I am.”

• “You realise I’m trying to make you swoon right now.” (Male/Non-Binary option)

  My lips curl into a smile wider than ${n_his}. “You realise I’m trying to make you swoon right now.”

  $!{n_she} chuckles. “Then I can assure you it’s working.” My breath stutters to a stop when ${n_she} leans even closer. “And what would you like to happen now?”

Personally, I was disappointed, not immersed when I replayed with a female PC and discovered the personality choices I wanted to RP with were locked out.

---

But given how often gender differences are requested and how much Wayhaven is praised for having them, I’m chalking this up to me being out-of-touch with what players want in romances.

(Ironically, I picked up Wayhaven to better understand writing romance routes and just ended up more confused. As someone who can’t experience it, I really cannot wrap my head around attraction being so physical. Does just interacting with someone you’re attracted to really feel like being set on fire or electrocuted or melting into goo?)

[Phenrex]

I personally find the ‘uwu blushy wushy’ bullshit very unimpressive myself if it doesn’t fit my character and the only other option presented is boldly flirting in an equally ill fitting way.

I wasn’t talking about having sexuality/gender determine how blushy you are, the MC’s personality itself shouldn’t change, unless you have sexist ideas about how people should react to things based on gender. Identity is about how you see yourself, but it doesn’t have to change how you behave in terms of those things.

My biggest disliked element from Wayhaven is the lack of agency, but I find this similarly obnoxious. Why would you lock out the options anyway? I didn’t know about most of these cuz I’m gay as shite and only play as a nonbinary/male detective who romances the boi-gents. It feels like it would make much more sense to present both to the readers and let them pick whether they have a ‘dommy femme’ or ‘demure dame’ vibe.

[EvilChani]

@Lan

Does just interacting with someone you’re attracted to really feel like being set on fire or electrocuted or melting into goo?

No, it does not. Being attracted to someone will definitely cause a physical reaction (elevated heartrate, feeling warmer, getting all tingly, etc.), and it can sometimes be a very strong reaction (like getting hot and bothered, literally, but it typically takes more than sauntering around like a model or making a lewd comment), but it does not typically happen in such a way that a person becomes a stuttering wreck or faints at someone’s feet. Well, unless you’re 13.

Reading this actually pissed me off. My MCs are all straight females. I didn’t realize straight males got more realistic responses to the vampires flirting (I usually skip anything not for a female MC and male vamps when code diving). That blows.

One thing to consider, though, is that Wayhaven is over-the-top in everything romance related, particularly where the MC is female (and really the whole story). A female MC can’t be shy-flirty in a demure or slightly reserved way, they are forced to stutter, blush, and freak the hell out over everything (especially the mention of sex with M, where a shy MC acts like a teen virgin who never even heard the word ‘sex’ before). A bold-flirty MC can’t just flirt, but has to make innuendos that can be downright creepy (especially when flirting with A, who is not a willing participant).

That’s just part of Wayhaven, and something you have to deal with when playing it. It’s how Sera wants to do the romances (over the top and forced angst), and has said that she likes over-the-top drama. When it gets too bad, I just head canon something else or write fan fiction to fix the scenes in a way where I can stomach them.

@Phenrex

I personally find the ‘uwu blushy wushy’ bullshit very unimpressive myself if it doesn’t fit my character and the only other option presented is boldly flirting in an equally ill fitting way.

Yep.

@Phenrex

My biggest disliked element from Wayhaven is the lack of agency, but I find this similarly obnoxious.

Again, I agree!

@Phenrex

it would make much more sense to present both to the readers and let them pick whether they have a ‘dommy femme’ or ‘demure dame’ vibe.

The one thing I’ll say is that I disagree with this if it doesn’t fit the RO. M is very much a dom, so having them act all subbish and shy wouldn’t fit. Give the MC/players a choice, but the ROs don’t necessarily have to like it or play along. What the OP said above, though? There’s no excuse for having such a difference between a straight male MC and other MCs, especially when the straight male gets way better and more believable options for responding to things.

[JBento]

@Phenrex

I personally find the ‘uwu blushy wushy’ bullshit very unimpressive myself if it doesn’t fit my character and the only other option presented is boldly flirting in an equally ill fitting way.

Alright, leeeeeemme just pick up some popcorn for @EvilChani’s 5-paragraph angry essay on why you’re right.

EDIT: Oh, too late.

[EvilChani]

Dammit, I should’ve cut it down to four paragraphs just to prove you wrong.

[Tarlonniel]

@Lan

Does just interacting with someone you’re attracted to really feel like being set on fire or electrocuted or melting into goo?

Everything I know about sexual attraction I learned from dating sims, and apparently the answer is “Yes. How else would you know someone is hot?”

[Phenrex]

I just wish more stories distinguished between sexual and romantic attraction.

Like, if I want to have ecchi, that is not the same necessarily as wanting to date them. Right? Why do they always conflate them both?

Response to @Anna_B :
It wouldn’t bother me as much if it didn’t set a standard for all romance focused stories in the future. The reason I love Vendetta in so much, though there are many reasons really, is because of the variety of attraction options. There are so many stories I can think of where the 2 options to increase Romantic stats is to be a blushing damsel or a flirty casanova with no inbetween.

Response to @ElliWoelfin :
The knowledge that I was cut off from a lot of text frustrates me too, because what if I didn’t want my nonbinary detective to be so… shy? Why is stoicism in romance only allowed for straight men?

[Anna_B]

I actually love the over the top reactions, even though it’s unrealistic most of the time. I think it’s made better by the fact that it’s on purpose, and not a bad attempt at realism

[ElliWoelfin]

That’s incredibly upsetting, honestly. Just, the whole thing. Firstly, the fact that the options I was always stuck with were due to gender is annoying, since like the “”“straight guy”“” version feels more appropriate for me, but the thing that really gets me is how this seems to treat nonbinary people. Like, it just reads as that super enbyphobic idea of nonbinary people being woman-lite. I get that, for some bizarre reason, it’s everyone but straight men that get treated like that (similarly problematic in a different way), but that is the most egregious part to me since it’s more relevant to stuff I know. Just, real bad vibes from that whole thing.
To clarify, I assume it wasn’t intentional, but yeah that’s extremely unpleasant.

[comradelenin]

Oh I feel ya, though it’s the opposite position for me.

[Nemureru_Mori]

I agree so much with everything you said! I love Wayhaven to death, it was my first ever Choicescript game and it opened the door for a whole new world for me. But I’m so annoyed by all the differences based on gender/sexuality. My problem is that I play as a gay male, but I always prefer female MC scenes and reactions more. I’m basically the opposite of @EvilChani in my preferences, where Chani wants to have straight male responses for female MC, and I’m on the other hand want to have female responses for male MC. That’s proves the point that you can’t assume what people want based on anything, just give people the freedom to choose for themselves.

Not only MC reactions changes based on their gender, but ROs treat MC differently depending on gender as well, like in book one they catch female MC in their arms when she passes out, while they let male MC fall and only slightly support him M is more sexual with female MC, touching her hips/tights in several scenes, while male MC is touched by shoulders/chest which is less sexy in my opinion. A in the famous “do it for me” scene caresses female MC cheek, while male MC gets a hand on his chest, which is less romantic and tender, again in my opinion. I don’t want my MCs to be treated differently by romantic partner just because of their gender, that’s not right.

Sorry to go off on Wayhaven like that, it’s just so frustrating. Wayhaven would be literally perfect if not for these differences, that’s why it upsets me so much.

@EvilChani

When it gets too bad, I just head canon something else

Does head cannoning things differently really help you? I’m asking because I want to do this, but it feels so fake because I know it’s written differently, and anything I imagining isn’t “real” in this fictional world. I kind of have a hard time believing in my head canons myself. It’s hard to explain in words, I don’t know if you understand what I mean.