Disliked Elements, Mechanics, and Tropes

General
2533

I agree with you on that. Overall, I don’t mind if writer decides to change presentation based on gender, I’m satisfied with traditionally feminine women and masculine men as ROs, but I also do like characters, who challenges gender norms, and I wish we had more ROs like that as well. I respect writers’ decision on how to make their ROs, ultimately these are their characters, and they would know if the character would be any different if their gender was flipped. But I also want more people to embrace the idea that these changes not always necessary and characters can be just as, if not more interesting, if these changes hadn’t happened.

That brings me to my own thing I dislike, which is similar. I don’t like it when changes based on gender are applied to MC. Like I said, if it’s RO, writers have complete freedom to write them however they want, but MC is partially a reader’s character, so I would like it if narrative didn’t assume things about MC based on gender stereotypes/roles. I will add, it doesn’t happen that often with CoG/HG games, we have relative freedom to shape our MC in different ways, but I’ve come across situations where certain gender-based changes in my MC have occurred and it broke my immersion, because I prefer to play gender-nonconforming characters.

A lot of readers like to praise when a game acknowledges MC’s gender and makes some changes accordingly. But I think the only thing that can be changed is how other people view our character, if it fits the story (like a military leader who is respected more if male and stuff like that). Things like physical description (apart from obvious anatomical differences), their mannerism, their behavior, their role in relationships shouldn’t be based on gender, but should be offered to readers to choose for their MC.

omg, we said similar thing almost at the same time :laughing: I hate it when my feminine male MCs called handsome so much!

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2534

I have a lot of thoughts about this and my approaches have evolved as I’ve improved in describing characters physically.

I go back and forth on the details of how I like to deal with gender-flippable characters, but have tended to keep traits/presentation consistent across genders; so for example Danelak is always tall and broad shouldered and dresses in thick knitwear and chunky boots, Javi always dresses flamboyantly in draping clothes and shiny accessories, Beaumont always has long hair and dresses in expensive but unadorned clothing… etc. I do have freedom to do what I want as I enjoy writing in fantasy settings where there aren’t the same gendered assumptions as in the real world about how people look. But it’s not the only way to do it by any means - there are plenty of characterful ingame discussions to be had where characters are bucking convention or are very conventional in their presentation but would like to explore other things, and so on.

Something interesting - I’ve had one reader tell me they’re certain that character A is “intended” to be gender B, and another reader say that character A is clearly originally written as gender C. Sooo… maybe my attempts at neutrality are working, maybe not, but whatever happens people will bring their own experiences, interpretations and assumptions to the game!

I love the thought of having conversations with a romanceable character about what compliments the MC and the character enjoy the most. One MC might not like their looks being referred to at all. Another might love being called pretty, however they present themselves.

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2535

My point is I’d rather a lineup of women with varied gender presentation than a gender-varied lineup of feminine people. I’d know I’m getting a woman, and that’s what I want out of a gender-variable RO.

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2536

I understand this has more to do with preference but men come in all types, not every male character needs or has to be a dominate emotionless macho man. There’s shy and submissive guys walking around us everyday. Also I don’t think blushing and getting embarrassed is an age restricted type thing.

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2537

The poor man is too busy thinking ~ S I N F U L T H O U G H T S ~ to remember that he was a holy knight in a past life.

Correct me if I’m off the mark, but do you mean like those old DeviantART questionnaires that you would fill out in the style of the character you’re writing, which have a bunch of only loosely related questions just to see how creative the answers get?

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2539

I was about to say that I agreed with @EvilChani, since it’s something that’s also been bothering me, but then I thought about it some more.

I think the problem I am personally seeing, is that all the ROs in a lot of current WIPs and new releases, both here and the twine ones on itch.io, are written as a type more than as a well-rounded person. It’s especially prevalent with all the many Wayhaven clones, but also happens in other games.
It’s like there’s a formula people are using, that has them include the Four Romance Option Types™, so that there is ‘someone for every taste’, but then forgetting that people just isn’t that one-sided, or so cartoonishly defined by their strongest character trait.
Or sometimes, they will mellow out the stoic and/or antagonistic ones (because they realise those are too flat, I guess), but not the soft/friendly/funny ones, which is probably part of why some of us feels like that type gets over-represented.

It’s also a common problem in how the MC is written.
All options are too extreme, you are either an emotional wreck, or completely cold, with no options to have feelings/opinions/reactions that gets expressed in a more calm/neutral way.
And I feel like it is an issue that is escalating, as new writers read the newest games, and then do the same things in their own WIP, just a step worse.
(EDIT: So they are basing their characters on already stylized characters in other work, instead of on how people actually are)

This is of course not the only reason there’s so many Soft Boy™ ROs.
I think a lot of it is us currently being in a wave of counter-reaction to male ROs in romance games/stories having to be über-macho and often problematic, as well as a general battle against toxic masculinity.
People just sometimes forget that there are many ways to be non-toxically masculine, including being dominant in non-problematic ways.

And sometimes it is also fun to have those problematic assholes as ROs.
A lot of people enjoy that in fiction.

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2540

I can respect this, you have very well thought criticisms and I see your point. I concede.

Though I do think you contradicted yourself just a bit with that “liking adult men acting like adults” correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t your one of your favorite love interests Rook? And he hardly acts mature.

I need answers :thinking:

Also @The_Lady_Luck I’m annoyed I can’t like your comment twice, something been itching at the back of my mind about this but I couldn’t form it into words.

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2541

Gotta also keep in mind that sometimes a curtain is just a curtain. Some of us are into softer, more submissive (but not entirely) men and that’s a valid genre of men to be into or to…be.

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2542

This is also valid

2543

Oh, yes, certainly.

But, I don’t think there’s been that much of a change in what people are actually attracted to (that was always very varied), so the very obvious change in what gets written (in our small IF corner of the internet, at least, not so much traditional publishing. Which in itself could also be part of it, like how we have much more queer representation, to make up for the lack elsewhere), seems to me to be more about a shift in cultural paradigms, than a grand shift in taste amongst consumers.
(Though I am neither a woman nor straight, so I am not an expect on the demographic that is still the main focus of the genre.)

And as I said, my problem is definitely more that the ROs are too one-sided and unrealistic. And also too similar across stories.
I guess it’s also that the nuance of kind+genuine person that I enjoy reading about is not the nuance that is commonly used.
So again, I will just ask for there to be more variety, since people have so very varied taste.
Like, unlike what others have expressed, Hadrian is only slightly too sweet/shy for me, and not really to a degree where it bothers me.

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2544

You win the internet today. This is exactly the problem and you described it much better than I did, because I was skirting around the edges of it.

The cartoonish qualities really grate on my nerves. Wayhaven is guilty of this, with each of the ROs being solidly representative of their trope, but Sera is well aware of the ROs being over the top and has stated that she wants it that way. I think that, as the series progresses, she will flesh them out a bit more, but it’s slow going and I don’t think they will ever subvert their trope. That’s just something we have to accept as we play it.

But almost everyone doing romance-centered stories seems to be following her lead instead of trying to make more… realistic romance options. They see that her formula worked, and are following it to the letter instead of taking the bare bones of it (which is that it’s an all-text otome) and making it even better by throwing the tropes out the window and building more complex romance options that can progress at a reasonable pace (instead of setting two of the four ROs where there’s little to no progress for five of seven books).

Like you, I have the same issue with the way MCs are written. I’ve brought this up before, in other threads, but if authors are going to bother with personality tropes, then ffs, use them where they matter the most! Don’t have a combat-oriented badass jump scare when they turn around to find someone behind them (it’s not cute and it breaks the characterization). Don’t force MCs to fluster if their personality stats go against that reaction. And, please, do NOT tell me how my character feels about a RO in a freaking romance game. Put a choice in, then build the MC dialog and internal monologue from that.

I think you’ve won the internet twice in one post…

And yes, it’s fun to have problematic assholes as ROs, when it’s done right and doesn’t take itself too seriously. For some, even then, because they like the pain!

Oh man, I love Rook! I want more like him in these games!! But now you’re making explain why, dammit… ahem

So the “adult men acting like adults” bit (for me) doesn’t mean they have to be serious all the time. I just mean that, when it comes to approaching problems or relationship or attraction, they don’t act like children who don’t know what they’re doing. They can go to war at your side and slaughter every enemy in your path. They can tell you flat out that they’re interested (or be more subtle and show it). They don’t run away when you get to close. But, despite all that, they’re willing to get a little goofy with you (like Rook!). Maybe that means they have a hobby normally reserved for non-adults. Or maybe it means they go to the toy store with you and bounce down the aisle on a pogo stick when they think you need a laugh. Being adult doesn’t mean you can’t have fun, it just means that you “deal with shit” :tm: that must be dealt with and have the spine to say what you mean and follow through.

As goofy as Rook is, he is the type of guy you can depend on when you need him. If you call him at 3 am, he won’t snap your head off or act like it’s a chore to come help you when the feds are invading your apartment. He’ll just drop what he’s doing and come help a girl out, even if that means hiding a few bodies. When it’s done, he’d kiss you, give you a smack on the ass, probably rock your world, then make you a taco to recover. What more could one ask for? :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m also a huge fan of Yu and Falco in A Mage Reborn. Falco borders on being tropey, but not long after he meets the MC, he keeps them from falling apart (and reminds them what a badass they are, and that they can get through this) when they almost have a meltdown over the crap they’ve been through. He’s a rock in the storm. And, as crabby as he is, there’s more to him than that.

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2545

a restraining order? :rofl:

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2546

A playful one :stuck_out_tongue: And no, my MC wouldn’t issue a restraining order on him! He’s too much fun for that!

I should play that game as someone who sides with the feds, just to see the other ROs, but the other side is more interesting.

I’m hoping the MC will prove to be his rock, so he can calm down a bit. Without losing his goofy qualities, anyway… I love that about him!

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2547

Goofy sweet men are top tier, I would love more Rooks

Hope he kicks that cocaine addiction though

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2548

Well, this has been a problem since forever, hasn’t it? At least in the type of AFAB / LGBTQ+ dominated spaces that this forum tends to fit within. I think back in the fanfic-hegemony day they called this trend “blushing Steve Rogers.”

To be honest I don’t think the issue is just that all ROs fit into types, but also that a lot of ROs don’t have a very coherent sense of self in the first place? There’s certainly a few shallow archetypes that reoccur quite frequently: ice queen, maniac pixie dream girl, sarcastic ne’er-do-well, flirtatious rogue, best friend, etc. But there’s also times when I’ve seen character concepts collapse entirely, usually in an effort to make the RO unique (not going to name names here). Certain ROs without enough vitality behind them, deprived of a trope skeleton, just collapse into raw balls of appearance and gender.

And I don’t think relying on a trope is necessarily a bad thing; one of my favorite ROs is “ice queen” Astrid from War Games, despite not being my usual type at all. All of the characters in that series are written rather embarrassingly like ethnic stereotypes, but the author is also strangely good at inserting small moments that really animate the ROs beyond “dialogue option with pink heart emoji.” I’ve talked about this in another post on this forum, but I think small moments scattered throughout a story—those little details that tell you these people have lived and are living—are what really turn Romantic Options into something more than just Options.

(By the way, I just want to take this opportunity to say that War Games has always been my favorite game on this site. If I received a sudden windfall such that I could finally actually afford Choicescript games, the first thing I’d do is totally throw a gajillion dollars at finally updating War Games, hopefully with less uncomfortable ethnic stereotypes.)

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2549

Hmm. Now I’m wondering how often a character can act in a specific way before becoming solely a stereotype. :thinking:

2550

It’s not “how often”, but just “how…”.
Or if they are/have anything beyond their traits.
But in the end the line beetween personality and stereotype is usually very blurred.

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2551

Well, sure, but not every reader will take into account the more rarely expressed traits (and as such might think the character is just one-note when they’re not).

2552

When it comes to writing, I like to think of those archetypes as tendencies/guidelines rather than traits that are set in stone. It helps to keep them in mind to make sure your character is consistent and not OOC, but too much of the same thing and they come across as one-note. It’s why I appreciate moments where a character does or says something unexpected, yet still makes sense for their personality. It gives them nuance and depth.

I guess the hard part of that, at least in IF, is including those moments in the story. It can be challenging when you have to juggle your cast and make sure they get a balanced amount of screentime while also keeping the pacing in mind. Some players who think a character is just XYZ trait might never come across scenes that show said character in a new light.

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2553

I’ve seen so many threads like this across so many different forums and not ONCE have I seen someone complain about what I’m dubbing “Comic Relief Redemption”

OKAY SO LISTEN. You have a character who’s fat and that fact about them is played off for rude humor and slapstick comedy (already annoying, I’ve never liked that) but their character IS really just that: A joke. Any personality they’re given is played for laughs/to make them seem the butt of the joke, and It’s… infuriating that the protagonists (WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD PEOPLE) are vindicated in this, that it isn’t seen as a rude and horrible thing to do??? Excluding someone and stripping their personhood to their physical qualities???

AND. THEN. EVEN WORSE, WITH NO ACTUAL DUE GIVEN TO THE CHARACTER, THEY DO ONE THING AT THE END (Usually accidental, because of course no comic relief can do ANYTHING heroic on purpose :roll_eyes:) AND SUDDENLY EVERYONE LIKES THEM AND THAT FORGIVES THE SHITTY WAY THEY WERE TREATED THE ENTIRE MOVIE!!! I’M SO MAD they never get a chance to like. COMPLAIN. about how they were treated!! Rubs me the wrong way. It isn’t a “redemption” because they were never bad in the first place, the narrative just framed treating them like shit as something morally neutral!! WHICH IT ISNT!!!

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