You know, it doesn’t work that way, Good writer should make you care aboutt characters, especially those who integral to plot. Hate them, love them, but care. The fact that game is a story about saving your sibling not excuse author from creating actual interpersonal dynamic between said sibling and MC.
In fact, on contrary, this is what I would expect when going into such game.
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“Cis male” and “cis female” are literally just words that refer to the fact you identify with the gender you were assigned at birth. It’s not supposed to mean that you’re bigoted or anything else. It’s just a way to distinguish whether someone is trans or not.
I’m not quite certain why you think it’s an offensive term, could you explain that to me? It is not supposed to be used as an insult it just basically means you aren’t trans. I’m also not sure what good any alternative would do as it would still just mean “identifies with the sex you were assigned at birth”. It’s not a negative thing. Wikipedia lists it as the antonym of trans.
It’s not an offensive question. I originally wrote more but I’m trying not to get too caught up in specifics since this forum isn’t really for that? I guess if anyone is interested in creating a forum specifically for asking these kinds of questions I’d take a look and answer what I can, and I’m sure others would too. 
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Jacic brought up some points I was thinking of as well. If it is unlikely that a non-binary character would be accepted, even in this fantasy setting, then wouldn’t a female MC have societal expectations keeping them from the plot? Suddenly a lot of games that take place in some historical setting becomes a lot harder/even impossible if the MC is female, because she would probably be married off really young or at the very least, be really conspicuous when trying to fulfill her plot. I know a lot of people enjoyed A Study in Steampunk, but were still unhappy that they were gender-locked. Is a slight bit of realism that much of a sacrifice if it allows the creative freedom that lets you choose your MC’s gender? I’m not saying to abandon all realism or that you have to do it any particular way, but I think we would be having a different discussion if every single game had to take time away from the story to go into social justice and be all factual and tragic about how LGBT+ people are treated in society. It would be exhausting both for us (part of why I’m such a fan of CoG is that it’s one of the few people I get representation and can read stories that aren’t all about “okay so here’s two gay people, their love is forbidden, watch this tragic story till the end where they both die!”) and also for everyone else. Sometimes we all just want some stories where the gender/sexuality of characters is not such a big deal. In a different forum I saw people complain about the discussion about the LGBT+ community that the characters in Heroes Rise: The Hero Project had. Mainly people thought it was unnecessary to the story. Now imagine if it was like that in every single game? That sort of thing would just lead to authors opting out of being inclusive and we’d go over to being all “okay well then no trans or gay characters because it’s too much work” y’know?
All in all I think it depends on the game. I’ve read some good CoG stories where I was amazed at the inclusion of non-binary identities, as well as gay characters, and where I felt relaxed that there wasn’t a big issue involved. In Study in Steampunk it was brought up that homophobia was alive and well but it didn’t take up a big part of the story, which felt right for that story. So all in all how you bring it up, and if you bring it up, I think it all depends on the game itself and how it fits with the story. It also has to do with what sort of story the author wants to tell. Sometimes these issues have to be brought up, other times it might feel excessive. That being said, I personally prefer to have several options both for sexuality and gender at least present, even if it’s just about what pronouns are used for the MC and their potential ROs.
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None of those arguments make any sense whatsoever. This is a fantasy game. The world is how the author made it to be. If the society in the game is accepting of a kid having power to heal a wolf or to talk with animals or that is accepting in a way to be ok with 14 year old girl to go into a dangerous quest, if the author want it, how is it less believable that this society would be more accepting of non-binary characters?
That is the world created by author, borrowing elements from Russian folklore.
Any disscussion about “historical accuracy” in a fantasy game is ridiculous.
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I’m kinda curious about non-binary people since I’ve never seen one personally in real life (actually I’ve never heard of the term before playing some of the games here)
How does this concept work? Are the people born intersex?
We talking more about "setting’ accuracy, than historic one. I think that I would’ve been much more forgiving toward Demon Mark(still wouldn’t want to buy it thougth) if authors didn’t call it “Russian” saga.
They didn’t gave me any actual in-story context to believe in village that exists in some alternative world fantasy Russia and whose people just accepts their kids being non binary. “Some children in the village had made similar declarations over the past few years” is not good or believable context at all.
And on the matter of believability of 14 year old having special power and going on quest in Fantasy setting - yeah I can believe in that. As 14 year old was considered almost adult in medievel times, and special powers are usual part of fantasy - BUT I expect them to believably explained by THIS SETTING rules, too.
Samuel_H_Young, it’s not about wanting to see them oppressed. It’s about wanting to see them proper part of storytelling, and not just be shoehorned into storyline with weak one-sentence explanation. I believe that authors could’ve done that while sticking to their chosen “non-binary are accepted in this village” route if they actually cared to try. It only required 1-2 paragraph of lore/story of this village.
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The game did that.
First you see the title “Demon Mark, Russian Saga”. The Russian saga part may suggest kinda historical setting, but mentioning demons already suggest it may be fantasy. Then you have introducion about various monsters and demons, and you now know it is a fantasy game.
So you know it is alternative fantasy world, inspired by Rusian folklore.
Then the game set a setting of your village and people’s interaction. It does it in short, true, but that’s just how author decided to focus their story. You are told that what they believe in, you are told they are accepting of different gender roles (MC’s mother and father), you are told they are accepting of supernatural things, you are told they are accepting of non-binary identities. In a short demo you have a setting put before you.
“Some children in the village had made similar declarations over the past few years” - what’s not “good or believable” in that, in any way less believable that “there are animals that talk to you”. Talking animals arent any more explained in demo than your sibling being non-binary. You havent got more than one sentence explanation for that, yet you are not picking up on that thing.
Why? Why does it need to be proper part of storytelling? It’s just a part of this universe that we are presented. Why you need a detailed explanation how it is possible in this universe, if you dont want a detailed explanation for talking animals, dragons, superheroes, demons and magic any more than “they exist here”? And you even get actually the explanation: The village is small and they utilise everyone to their best abilities (MC’s mother being more stereotypicaly “manly” than father in some points), so they dont have a problem with gender roles. So, if that, then they dont have a problem with gender identities also.
I think when you read about non-binary people in this fantasy world, your reaction shouldn’t be “that’s not how it suppose to be!”, but rather “oh, so that how it is in this universe”. And just move on.
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Who said that i “don’t want a detailed explanation for talking animals, dragons, superheroes, demons and magic”?
I think I actually wrote in this post that “I expect them to believably explained by THIS SETTING rules, too”.
So, sorry, but no. When i go into some new setting I judge it by two criteria:
First: how unique/captivative it is.
Second: how well-crafted and thoughtful it is, from social and political structure and up to physical and mystical laws of the world.
And Demon mark couldn’t hold me on either of those.
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While for me, the non-binary character was a little surprising, I think it’s because I’m simply not used to actually seeing casual non-binary representation outside of choices to make my character non-binary. I feel like the author did mention that it was not especially uncommon in the village that the characters grew up in, so it didn’t really break the sense of immersion I had. I think I was equally if not more surprised by the talking animals, haha.
The game is advertised as fantasy, so I wouldn’t hold it to any sort of strict realism when it comes to how medieval Russians would actually respond to a non-binary person.
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I appreciate the question, Vauclair.
The problem is, you’re perceiving the past through the lens of modern history-making. From the 1700s until the recent past, history generally but pre-modern and non-European especially was written with a very specific set of cultural and gender assumptions. Over the past few decades (what someone in this thread derisively called “Revisionist History”), historians and archaeologists have tried to stop working from these assumptions, and look at the actual evidence.
All too frequently, when academics go back and look at that evidence while trying to set aside these assumptions, they discover that history is not as it was taught to us for three hundred years. (There’s a great recent example regarding Vikings, where bone-studies upended the assumption that people buried with weapons were men; turns out, women were buried with weapons as well. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-0254.2011.00323.x/abstract)
When you and Rogar make claims about a “traditional society,” the problem is that we don’t have much evidence for what life was like–especially for poor, rural, illiterate villagers. When you say “traditional society,” you’re talking about what the religious figures (the educated people of the time) of the 18th Century were projecting back as being eternal and unchanging, not about how the past actually was.
Thus, claims by you about what medieval life was actually like, without rigorous academic evidence, are specious and likely bigoted, because they arise from the political historicity of the modern era.
Now, I’m not saying that I personally know how nonbinary people were treated in medieval Russia. What I am saying is, claims that they didn’t exist or that this is an inaccurate portrayal of them is incorrect, because no one knows the answer. Therefore, your rejection of the inclusion of nonbinary people in this fictional past is a political stance, not a historical one. Conversely, this also means that the inclusion of the nonbinary sibling is a political stance that this story takes; but I know that it’s a political stance, and I’m ok with that.
This is why I asked you to stop saying bigoted things: by trying to frame your argument as based in historical fact, you’re asserting that your argument isn’t political. But there are no historical facts on which to base your claim, only modern political opinions. As long as your assertion is based on a modern political opinion that is rejecting inclusivity, your statements are either ignorant or bigoted.
Here are a number of links about politics, historicity, and fiction:
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I am never one to mind representations in a game. In fact, I applaud it and always open for more of it. However, there is a difference between making an addition that can fit the setting and still be respectful and making an addition just for the sake of having it. I felt like this game could’ve done better in terms of having a non-binary sibling. I felt like the details came too quickly and too soon, almost shoe-horned into the introductions before moving on…
As a whole, I couldn’t finish the story. I got to the part with Marya and I simply put the game down. It feels rushed, and I wasn’t even that captivated as I played. MC felt like a white blanket with no personality whatsoever, and none of the characters really caught my attention all that much other than Grey Wolf. It felt too ambitious, and the pacing felt off. Not sure how to explain it. I have played worse CoGs, but this is the first time I couldn’t even finish and simply not see myself playing more than once.
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It seemed to me like Gloria was complaining about a genre convention. It’s okay to not like a genre convention and to want to avoid works that use that convention, but I just think it’s silly to pay for a work that you know uses that convention and then complain about it.
If Gloria is really saying “I feel that Sibling was badly characterized and that made me not want to save them,” then I withdraw my criticism. That’s a perfectly legitimate opinion.
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Just because i dident like the game. Does not mean John Doe im not gonna buy it from the beginning because of its saying since i give everything a chance. Also quiet some COG games have diffrent branches that ones MC can follow. This one was quiet bland and as i said i did not enjoy it. [quote=“MrsObedMarsh, post:66, topic:27240”]
your complaint is kind of like if somebody went to Olive Garden and was dismayed to see a bunch of Americanized Italian food on the menu. Olive Garden is an Americanized Italian restaurant chain. All of their advertising makes this abundantly clear. If you don’t like Americanized Italian food, Olive Garden is the last place you should go!
[/quote]
Why do you even compare a COG game to olive garden like sorry but it seems as if youre trying to pick a fight, and as i stated above some COG games have diffrent branches that someones MC can follow and maybe because its a COG game. I myself expected a diffrent ending choice. Maybe one where the MC just says … it im gonna live my own life and not save my sibling.
When in anywhere did i in my subjective opinion as you said, say anything about the dev or the devs. Like i dident even name anyone but my thoughts on the game. Are you serious 
That is what i meant with not liking the sibling. The sibling was so bland and just making the sibling non binary without anymore interaction with their identity, put me greatly off. As if they just made the sibling non binary just because. And for me that felt wrong… like the author was just using non binary because they could and they dident even adress it in any way then “Im binary now yay”
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I second this. I mean, the sibling has no character beside “oh I’m binary by the way” and “please save me”. I don’t care if it didn’t exist at the time (demons don’t exist but no one complains).
The problem is, it felt like they were here to fill a quota and I don’t feel implicated in the story because they lack personnality. If we had flashbacks to understand how the sibling meant for the MC, it would’ve been better.
I don’t care about their gender identity, but the fact it’s used to say “Y’know, in our village, we accept non binary people and WE DON’T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS! WINK WINK DO YOU GET WHAT I’M SAYING?”.
It’s not subtle at all, even less than the message of Hero Project: Redemption Season, and THAT is the real problem, not the gender identity of the sibling.
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Whats wrong with using that fact to say that?
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I enjoyed. Even though the story wasn’t involving enough in my opinion, i had my fun trying to make the right choices for the challenges (meaning that they were really “challenging”) And well i got more or less the ending that i expected, so i didn’t regret getting the game.
I still see the title “Demon Mark worth the buy?” as more of a yes or no question (but that’s just me?) so I thought I’d make a poll.
Is Demon Mark worth the buy?
- Yes - and I own the game
- Yes - and I do not own the game
- Undecided
- No - and I own the game
- No - and I do not own the game
0 voters
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I’m sorry, Gloria! I didn’t mean to be insulting.
I think the reason I’m not bothered by the Sibling’s characterization is because traditional folklore and fairytales have minimal characterization as a rule. Maybe that’s not a good enough reason - a lot of modern fairytale adaptations, especially ones written for older children, teens, and adults, do follow more modern narrative conventions and take the time to give characters complex motivations and rich inner lives - but I know what I like and I shouldn’t expect others to feel like I do.
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Yes it does seem like it would be a yes or no answer but I was looking for more detail than that and a wide variety of opinions. I was however not looking for people to start fighting in the comments.
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Good news, then!
Now we have both a “yes or no answer” and “a wide variety of opinions”! 
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