@Vauclair I did say it wasn’t definite/irrefutable proof, but that it also showed that back then there was more than the “girly girl” and “manly man” perceptions.
You can argue that the story is up for (personal) interpretation, but it’s not about a girl wanting to show the Tsar that she was as capable as any man; it’s about the Tsar making a fool of himself for being so obsessed with someone’s designated sex at birth/the heroine using her cleverness because her gender identity/what was between her legs was no one’s business but hers.
The moral of the fable can change depending in how you understand it; V could very well be a woman who didn’t want to be a “girly girl” and was more progressive than what was allowed in her time, a gender non-conforming heroine who used her wits to win against the narrow-minded Tsar who wanted to label her, or something else entirely.
So since you said you don’t feel like arguing about the heroine’s “manly” habits I won’t get into that either, but I never stated that because she had this behavior (which was considered “mannish” in the story), that made her a man/something else than just a cis woman. Behavior/Habits =/= Gender. I just put that up because some said that having a NB character “back then” was unrealistic; that story shows that even in that time more than the “regular manly man/feminine woman” existed.
I don’t remember who’s Shura, but if they happened to be NB too, so what? It’s not like there can be only one NB per game; someone could even write a story where no one is cisgender.
Okay, I played demo and, sadly, this is rare (for CoG games) case when I absolutely don’t want to try full one.
My first point - minor dislike is absence of romance. Yup, I can play game without Ros and enjoy it, but only if it provide me with engaging story, characters, world and mechanics. Good example if first part of Infinity series. Here we have very generic beginning, lacked of detail or meaningful intercations.
Second point - as i already mentioned in other discussions, i’m russian. I love my national folklore and was dissappointed how it was used here. Again, it didn’t feel as russian tale. More like generic fantasy with ocassional russian term drops. For example, when it comes to choosing your tribe, with the way the authors describe them, it feels more like attempt of cool “national” exposition than actual immersion…
Third point - as many others, I don’t like HOW nonbinary was presented here. It felt comepletely out of sync with russian folklore. To intergrate non binary character there they should have used some more profound storytelling than simple “Sure, couple of kids in our village suddenly decided to be non binary and everyone Ok with that”.
Jesus, that’s probably first time I actually criticized CoG story so harsh.
Sorry for messy english, folks.
This is gonna be long, and I just wanna say a few things first:
I know the majority of people here don’t actually mean any harm and I’m not trying to accuse you of anything, just voicing my viewpoint of this
I’m non-binary myself, to clear that up.
I’m sorry if this comes across as impatient or anything, I’m not sure if it will but it’s late where I am and I’m a bit uncomfortable with some of the arguments I’ve seen. In any case it’s not personal if I seem short with anyone
trying not to get too off-topic since I know there are other forums for that, it’s an extensive conversation though so sorry in advance if anything I say went too far out of it
So. I won’t say I disagree when people say it was executed poorly (I only sort of skimmed through the first three chapters to see what kind of story I could expect/double check my expectation that there’d be no romance). I’m not arguing that, I’m just arguing against some points in this forum + adding some of my own.
In a fictional story taking inspiration from folklore including talking animals and literal demons - things that I suspect most people here would not say were actual things existing in Russia back then… why is the biggest issue you have with the realism of this story the presence of a non-binary character? I’m comfortable saying it is less likely that there existed demons than non-binary people back then. I read your arguments and I don’t completely disagree with all of it, but seriously though? It almost seems like less of an issue about the portrayal of the folklore than the underlying “makes me uncomfortable to see non-binary people represented” I mean, forgive me for the generalization but it’s a bit iffy to see that (some) people immediately think it’s political when a non-binary option is present? I’m not sure, y’all. I kind of get it, and yet…
Personally, I don’t really think “social justice in my historical fiction” when I see an option to be non-binary in a game, it’s more of a “oh, neat, it’s inclusive” moment where I pause and appreciate the fact that people respect us? My biggest issue here isn’t the “is this realistic” portion of the forum, mainly that it seemed like everyone took for granted that it was a political move rather than a (possibly poor) attempt at including more than the binary genders?
I totally get that not all games have to add any non-binary gender options (which is part of why it’s so appreciated when games do) and it’s usually fine by me when I start a story and there’s only binary gender options, but like… that’s because I largely prefer being referred to as a guy? But then I’m reminded that there could be androgynous/agender people reading that are forced to pick one out of two possibly dysphoric options. One thing I’ve noticed people complain about in the forums is being gender-locked. And, like, to a non-binary person, having to be referred to as he/him or she/her IS a lot like being gender-locked. And I mean these games are written in a way that makes it kind of the point that you identify at least a little bit with the main character, with the majority of CoG/HG being in a second-person perspective and all. Now imagine doing that if you’re being forced to spend the entirety of the game being referred to in a way that A) doesn’t resonate with you, and B) could cause dysphoria/discomfort because it potentially reminds you of how you’ve been treated in real life, with people referring to you in a way you can’t stand. (Note: this isn’t the case for all non-binary people at all, just making an example). Besides the point but just something I thought worth mentioning.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that it’s a bit insulting to hear that it’s unrealistic to have non-binary people in a fiction setting inspired by that era, when the myths and folklore isn’t? It also reminds me of how the inclusion of LGBT+ characters is often viewed as being political, when it could be as simple as wanting more representation for those identities?
I agree with this. Please don’t use the phrase “suddenly decided to be non binary” as it’s not a … choice, per say, but I get what you’re saying and yeah.
That being said, I’m surprisingly undecided on this whole discussion.
Anyway… I hope this was at least a little bit coherent. Again, sorry if I seemed to put words in anyone’s mouth or if anything I said came across as rude. It’s late and I get defensive on the topic of non-binary identities due to always having to. well. defend it to people. But the majority here weren’t being really offensive or anything.
As many people already stated, the problem is also how the non-binary people are presented In this game. Can you, for a second believe that a strongly traditional society would always look kindly and nonchalantly/accepting upon people that are non-binary, homosexual or else? Honestly, if author wanted to be inclusive about it he should’ve approached the issue more delicately and precisely. Non binary people in this age would be viewed as the odd ones, yet the game makes it seem like a common thing.
That being said, it doesn’t mean that this is my only issue. It is true that I don’t like it when the realistic, epic and well written depiction of the folklore is less of a priority than inclusion. The reply of the fellow russian is also quite true about this game being more of a fantasy with drops of russian there and there, rather than a full and fleshed out russian story.
How do you know that “nonbinary people in this age would be viewed as the odd ones”?
Have you studied medieval Russia? Have you been to Kiev? Have you ever even read something written in that place and that time? What gives you the authority to make such specious claims?
If you don’t have studies or evidence or a time machine, your bigoted opinion is not welcome here.
I’m having a hard time trying to make my posts as safe as possible, not quite used to that, sorry.
So you need to be a time traveller in order to prove that Russia wasn’t the tolerant shelter amongst the medieval bigotry? The medieval ages are often unclear and when you try to make fiction based on it, you must be convincing about what you thought of. Author haven’t did a good job on convicing.
Again, I would like to apologize if I am quite harsh, you must understand, one holds high standards when encounters fiction based on his native folklore.
Even if you’ll ban me for some kind of apocalyptic offense, I would like for someone to point out what was exceptionally rude and insensitive in my post. It would very much help upon my next dialogues and debates with westerners outside of imageboards.
Straight off wikipedia from a 30s search (I know this isn’t non-binary, but suggests that a lot of the discrimination is probably more recent than the time period this game is set in.)
Medieval Russia was apparently very tolerant of homosexuality, with foreign visitors to the country surprised by displays of affection between homosexuals. The first laws against homosexuals in Russia came about in the 18th century, under the reign of Peter the Great, but only in military statutes for soldiers.
Now I am Not Russian but I been reading medieval Russia from 980-1584 about 3/4 the way done with it. I’m also friends with the author of mind and labor Black Earth Russia from 1861-1914. Just called him and asked him this question because he interviewed back in the 80s mind peasants that lived at the turn of the 20th century. Us and them all sorts of questions about social perspective how they survived famines etc. The thing about the village system mind you we could’ve been different and past is that they’re very local and small everyone knows each other and because of that it’s a strict enforcement of conformity and any deviation from that social religious or even the way you farm could be harsh consequences.
And back in the ninth and 10th century Rus The Church with an appendage of power and enforcement of the legitimacy of the Princes. No if they have intense conformity during the 19th century I can only imagine how it was the 10th.
So it would be extremely difficult for a non-binary individual to exist with in a Russian village the side without being social ostracized or exiled.
So if you have i’m doing non binary option the game good habit make it feel true to the setting. In this case maybe the child in question runs into the word and learns under the hag mystical creature etc. You can make it fun and interesting well simultaneously being true to settings and feel authentic.
Prior to Tsarist policy, homosexuality and cross-dressing were punished by religious authorities or militias. Ivan the Terrible was accused of being gay, in an attempt to discredit him. When Tsar “False Dmitry I” was overthrown his broken body was dragged through the streets, from his genitals, alongside his reputed male lover
God no we do not want it to be that brutal. So handling non binary to go in to make it interesting you could have them learn under a mystical figure because they are indeed exiled from their community for the sake of their own life. And you can add a whole other interesting to dimension to the game
Most of what you reference is 1700’s onwards, not the time frame of the folk tale. From the sounds, there was quite a bit more tollerance until an overhaul of the laws. The only one that comes close is Ivan, and he was on the borderline of the end of the middle ages and a ruler rather than a commoner to boot. So unless there are references to hardline discrimination earlier in the piece on a commoner level, the argument still stands that it may not have been as unusual as you think.
Anyway, I think this has been done to death by this point and when it comes down to it, this is fantasy and things are not always true to life and seems like an odd thing to be making such a huge deal out of. The way it was introduced could definitely have been better, but having a non-binary character in a fantasy book really shouldn’t be that concerning. I also don’t see the issue with there not being romance in it. The story is about a youngish child (only 12 I think? which is definitely young for dating) who has more important things on their mind right now. It would kind of be odd with romantic entanglments in it.
All the One Source is yes but you got an action this how much do the Russian peasant perspective change in a thousand years. They’re not getting influenced by Romanticism or the enlightenment It didn’t triple down to them. Unless they actively leave their community to metropolitan area. And the stationary nature of the Russians and the turn of the 20th century is true then as it was not in nine hundred year prior. If they move it was most likely there become a war or agricultural regions now I’m referring to Prior the unfortunate surfdome Russians had for a long time quite a bit of Mobility up until the formation of Cesar of Moscow.
That little quote I picked up Wiki as well as referring to prior to the formation of Ivan state referring to the principalities under the golden horde and going back further when it was still the Rus.
All I’m saying you’re going to do non-binary option in nationalist folklore and not a terribly tolerant time when it came to those issues in that geographical region do it justice and make it interesting make it mystical make it fun. Make it feel organic to the narrative without disempowering the player. And among many cultures non-binary reviewed as people that existed outside social norms and among some cultures as mystical individuals.
Ok, lets pull this sideways for a moment into something easier to define for time periods: gender. (And just agree to disagree on what may or may not have been reality for non-binary people in old Russia.) Choice of games has a a reputation for promoting tollerance. You should know that going into a story already. I haven’t seen you making the same sort of complaints in stories that feature gender flipped senarios/ prominant female characters in roles they wouldn’t have commonly (or ever in some cases) been in for that time period. Examples include choice of broadsides (aka the old school navy), choice of romance (aka King Henry’s court) and Pendragon (King Arthur). (And I suspect there’s probably some non-traditional gender roles occuring in games like choice of alexandria, the eagle’s heir, choice of the ninja and a midsummer night’s choice although I haven’t read them so can’t be sure). In all three I’ve listed, you can gender flip the game so that your all male “true to history” ship crew becomes all female.
That’s what fantasy/re-imagining can do. I fail to see why it is at all offensive or or an abuse of culture as has been suggested in this thread. If you look at the previous thread on this game, I predicted the response of the intollerant to be one of kicking up a fuss because of the way the character was introduced. And when it comes down to it, intollerence what it is. If you had an argument that something is overly preachy or heavy handed in its execution (like happened in another notable example) and during beta testing had a suggestion to make it better and more organic, that would be one thing, but simply saying “no non-binary people unless they’re mystical or oppressed” doesn’t make much sense in a fairy tale re-telling. And especially not one made by a company that tries to be inclusive.
(And just as an aside- your sibling has prophetic dreams so kind of fits the “mystical” figure you’re suggesting anyway.)
No I’m not sexist thank you very much. Yes medieval times in any particular area or is it going to be generic Fantasy.
All asking if you’re going to put it in there make it plausible and feel real to the setting and respect the culture came from drawing from that time.
@Jacic I haven’t played Pendragon I’m personally not a fan of gender flip because I feel like it lessens a narrative when you can have very interesting perspectives based on gender on those eras.
Midsummer Night’s Dream is fantical to the point of beautiful and wonderful absurdity I love it .
Eagles heir, was running on a case of exception any age overall when the populace would not be terribly tolerant to it but they’re taking advantage of the idea of the Revolution and breaking social norms. I’m considering your main character releases of round high nobility it slide. The person I still feel a little out of place to me.
The thing is I’m not a fan of gender fip because it ruins the narrative potential of different perspectives it takes away the richness. Outside of modern times a Tran woman a man and non-binary perspective are all going to be very different. And that his room for fantastic storytelling.
Oh you can have a field day with that. You can do a combination of the knowledge of the actual folklore and rituals customs. You can look at the actual time. And see if there would be enclaves of the old faith. And those are the ones I can think of top of my head you can get really creative with it. Baba Yaga would be one how to used. But she’s already used as a villain. You you can look at Finnish or Slavic culture before the Viking Conquest.
I think the game book seems anyone of royalty is Rurikids. Which would make sense they were the only ruling family in that region for centuries. Whatever nobility that Rose have around them were there retainers.
Personally the story didn’t grip me in the demo. I also feel the siblings gender identity seemed rushed to me. I’m not saying that someone that age doesn’t know who they truly are. It just for me at least, would have worked better if you got to know said sibling through some interactions and, childish adventures. So you get to know them. Rather than, poof the gender identity becomes the first real interaction with them dialog wise.
There is one thing I would like to ask. If someone would be kind enough to answer. I see frequently in the forums people really don’t like labels being misused, or forced upon them. I understand this completely, and have been hated on for things other than my gender. (e.g. sexual preferences, appearance, etc.) That being said, why do the terms cismale/cisfemale get used so freely? When used in regard to someone such as myself, who identifies as the gender they were born into.
I never chose it, yet society gives it to me. I find it ridiculous, and think a better term could have been used. Of course I have no real idea for an acceptable alternative. So in closing, I hope that this question doesn’t come across, as me being a bigotous D- bag. It was not my intention to cause offense to anyone. Sorry for the long winded post, and have a good night/day.
Nope.
I dident like the story.
Why? Its because
1.Why does my MC love their sibling. WHY do i have to love the sibling? I dident even want to save the sibling.
2. No romance (i can get Why, but still)
3. The story overall.
4. Annoying parents.
And i can go on and on.
“1.Why does my MC love their sibling. WHY do i have to love the sibling? I dident even want to save the sibling.”
You had to save the sibling because that’s what the game is about. If you don’t want to play games about rescuing siblings, don’t buy games with descriptions that say things like, “…when the evil demon Uhin places the Demon Mark upon you and kidnaps your parents’ second child, you’ll set out on an epic adventure to reunite your family” (emphasis mine).
To my mind, your complaint is kind of like if somebody went to Olive Garden and was dismayed to see a bunch of Americanized Italian food on the menu. Olive Garden is an Americanized Italian restaurant chain. All of their advertising makes this abundantly clear. If you don’t like Americanized Italian food, Olive Garden is the last place you should go! I can’t really argue with your other complaints - even if I disagree with them, I have to admit they’re subjective - but it’s not the devs’ fault you didn’t read the description carefully enough to figure out whether or not this was something you’d enjoy.
