Indeed, and I quite liked this part of the Witcher. My issue is that I didn’t like that in this certain game, as I didn’t expect that, and expected that it would be like a interactive version of the countless folk tales I’ve read. I don’t find the modern issues of tolerance suitable in folk tales.
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Thank you!
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Thanks everyone for your help. I really appreciate it.
Having games that include settings that are unusual for the Western mass market or involved in world-building in normally not seen environments is a wonderful thing.
Being introduced to Russian/Kievian Rus folktales (even if somewhat mangled) should be something that is celebrated and given credit where it is done. Most Westerners are not aware of any Slavic traditions, tales or even that entire societies and civilizations existed before St. Pertersburg was built.
Now I understand where the more conservative members of the modern “Russian/Ukraine/Belorussian” (etc) states are coming from regarding the inclusion of a non-binary character (even npc) in a medieval setting within the “Rus” world.
I don’t agree with their criticism because the mere existence of such a character is not totally inconceivable in an English modern day translation so that people in the West can relate on all levels.
A better criticism is as @Lys says: the deployment and implementation of that character being raw and hamfisted. CoG missed dealing with this in their interview and the blame for that lies with them on that. They had the demo up for some time and people in their community had voiced their concerns - instead of taking that opportunity to address that; there was the sound of silence.
I. personally, believe a non-binary person could very well exist in any medieval society - Frankish, Slavic, Greek, Turk, Egyptian, and any other you can name. That a fictional village in the wilds of Kievian Rus would be accepting of such a character is fictional license and in a Western-orientated fictional piece I can accept that being so.
I already stated my criticisms in the other thread of the writing of that sibling - it is a flawed and not very well executed character. I said at the time I’d like to see if this was improved or at least addressed before going forward and so far, neither has happened.
So, celebrate the good this choice-game does because it does a lot of good, critique what it fails to do effectively but don’t condem it out of hand because it attempts something different then you expected.
ymmv.
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The main character is a young teenager who decides to venture out of their home to find their missing sibling. The lack of romance here is justified as it doesn’t feel right playing a 12-14 year old involved in romantic matters.
CoG wants to be broad-minded about social minorities but unless you know what you’re doing and are properly informed you run the risk of doing them a disservice or worse, spreading misinformation (hello ‘50 Shades of Grey’). The author of Demon Mark basically hammfisted a non-binary character in there just to make it feel like they were being “progressive”. Needless to say that’s not what the right way to go about it and much less what people want to read - if you can’t put an effort into being authentic then what makes you think your reader is going to be any more interested?
If you’re going to be inclusive then at least do so properly and with meaning, not just some half-assed attempt in order to fit in.
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Except the very nature of folklore is not, and was never meant to be, static. 
Unless we are all parrots, when I tell a story that my grandmother told me, it can adapt, and with my own unique perspective and experiences it has already begun to change. Now 'twould appear this author is adding their own thread to their own tapestry of rich folklore. Naysayers are welcome to nay, but apologies, this tale does not solely belong to you, 'tis theirs as well–and thereby their prerogative to share it with others as they dream. Might as well condemn the Brothers Grimm or anyone who has ever spun a tale by firelight. Personally, I’d rather not revolt against Zombie Exodus for rewriting the history of my country or Choice of the Vampire for the literal blood-borrowing of historical figures.
I do wonder–my sister’s children bear Native American roots and I have yet to encounter any of their people discouraging their kin and children from introducing new and brightly colored yarn to the weavings of their own legends and mythos. How do we account for multiple versions of folklore to be found in all cultures? How can any inclusion be contrary or out of place when we pass our lessons and creative wisdom down to the next generation to not only be preserved but hopefully improved upon? Should women of ancient Rome only be viewed through the lens of the male authors of the time who captured them? I do believe this is one of the rare times I have ever bore witness to the disappointment that oral traditions were not filtered in black or white, that modernization should not be expected or accepted–against the very ideals of imagination, against the very mold of storytelling itself…
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The thing is I positively absolutely love folklore especially in America when we have very few cultural roots as a population over all because it normally gets bleached out over Generations two. I personally had a very vague European I think background with none of my family having any traceable memory hope wherever you come from. Besides one really what’s a strange story of a French great-great-grandfather came Oklahoma during the land rush and married a Cherokee girl, which I for a long time viewed as apocryphal. I done a fair amount of research and American folklore
So I’m aware folklore takes on dimensions. But if you’re harking back to traditional Rus folklore. Adding and modern convention to it and a ham fisted way does the entire product diservice.
I read some great historical fiction that handled non binary or the middle gender very well but they were aspects of their culture. So adding a non-binary to Rus traditional folk tales the minimum would be 8th or 9th Century Village comes off looking place.
My personal opinion if they wanted to do non-binary then they should just have made genders being vague. They could make the siblings identical twins.
They could have done gender in a really interesting Way by not giving you the choice until much later in the game.
For example could base on a nickname or heroic title gain. Crazy mythology and folklore are very binary in nature and their telling.
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Actually twins is a great idea as a twin myself I’d love to read more stories about the power of love between two siblings and the indescribable bond we share. All I ever generally see is people who write gross stories where they turn twins into romantic partners. Or where one twin dies and the other must live their life alone. Tired of it. Folklore is amazing and I love it I want more stories with it.
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Goodness, that word again. A discomfort when quite often applied to minority inclusion, because their cannot/should not ever be a character who is merely allowed to be, there must always be some deeper, intricate reason for them to exist? Being openly accepting of differences does make sense at any point in time because people are not of a hive-mind and as @Eiwynn elucidated, it has existed, and it all becomes clear if you know how and where to look.
In my view, all folklore is created equal–that the synergy born from the fantastic tales of any culture is not inherently untouchable nor should be held to a purer standard than any other. At this point there is rarely a story that has not been adopted, adapted, or touched by another. I do find it perplexing how the addition of a normalization of tolerance can be perceived as causing harm whereupon the constant desire for the dark shadow of “isms” to permeate entertainment may easily cause far more of a disservice to the human state. One should not forget the mistakes of the past, but it’s okay to inspire hope for the future, too.
[quote=“Rogar, post:28, topic:27240”]
My personal opinion if they wanted to do non-binary then they should just have made genders being vague. They could make the siblings identical twins.[/quote]
Mm, hence it becomes erasure when the majority of readers at this point are not going to imagine the characters as nb–unfortunately we’re still at baby steps in giving the too-often-rendered-silent a voice and sometimes readers may still need to be lead by the hand…
[quote=“Rogar, post:28, topic:27240”]
They could have done gender in a really interesting Way by not giving you the choice until much later in the game.[/quote]
I cannot ascertain how this could curtail the criticism.
[quote=“Rogar, post:28, topic:27240”]
Crazy mythology and folklore are very binary in nature and their telling.[/quote]
I believe the only thing binary about oral traditions are the two different souls who happen to relate and retell one story. While the spirit of the piece might end up being the same, the application and the variation may not. Just as an author does not exist in a vacuum, neither does the story. I would not wish to imply the authors were lazy or not creative enough to reflect upon the intolerances of past and present society merely because it was denied, or wasn’t woven in with a subtle wink-wink and a nudge. I am honestly a bit disheartened and suspicious at the outcry of particular accuracy over something particularly inaccurate to begin with. Why must intolerance, or even the mere allusion, always be dealt with in a medium where some are looking to find an escape? Now, being overt is not necessarily my style, but shine the spotlight enough times and it can be an effective way to bring the outside in…
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because it comes off revisionist on hold folk custom. I would have no problem if this isn’t a modern day interpretation in a modern setting.
Going with a sibling angle they could be identical and their gender may not be the most precise. And it could be something hinted to depending on the players choices and their name and how they dress subtle thin etc.
If you have a folklore tale taking place in the ninth Century though it’s still out of place to have non binary. And trust me if anyone was non-binary they would stick out like a sore thumb and it would be some type of religious or spiritual connection to that.
On the side notebl I love your tone it’s so kind.
I don’t know how else to say this (sorry for the capslocks), but since some are arguing that the NB sibling feels unreal in the setting/ham-fisted/whatever, here it goes: YO, LOOK AT WHAT I FOUND ABOUT A GENDER NON-CONFORMING CHARACTER IN A RUSSIAN FOLKTALE.
I didn’t even try (hard) to find it, so I bet that if I actually looked for it, I would find tons more of similar stories. While this wouldn’t be a definite and irrefutable proof of people’s attitude(s) back then, it also shows that even then they had a (vague) idea of more than the gender binary.
So the little sibling being NB is not anything modern, thus the ham-fisted (whatever that means) argument is invalid. Maybe the authors could have written them differently, you can argue that, but not their existence.
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Then Loki giving birth to Sleipnir would be out of place? Wait, the Norse religion was still practiced up through the 12th century.
Non-binary elements were always present in the old religions, those faiths which would give rise to the folklore. Does this mean all the main characters had it? No, of course not, but elements of it were present…if anything, the onslaught of the Abrahamic faiths like Christianity did more to quash it than anything else.
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Not to it’s detriment, though? Now I am wondering about the many, many ancient Slavic tales of witches and demons I luckily seem to have missed that outright deny and/or persecute the existence of a person who identifies as non-binary. 
Aww. My own folklore is that I was raised by unicorns…
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I don’t think it counts as non binary. After I managed to find the tale in russian I saw that they named her Vasiliy because drinking vodka is an ill befitting habit for a maiden. Plus, you could also argue that having “manly” habits does not make her a man, but I don’t wanna argue about that.
Anyway, even if there is a rare possibility of a truly non binary character (by the modern defination) game makes it sound like a common thing, as the neighbour child Shura simply decided that they are not a boy or a girl too.
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For anyone arguing non binary people didn’t ‘exist’ in mainstream myths or folktales in non modern settings, I posted one just the other day that was Babylonian so way predates this one (underworld video)
https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/not-too-serious-mythology-channel/27114?u=jacic
Besides, as has been brought up before this is fiction, the world is what the author makes it. There are dragons and evil witches and talking animals. If you think a non binary character is stranger than that, then I don’t really understand. As I stated in the previous thread, I think it could have been written in better, but saying things like this shouldn’t exist just because, doesnt make much sense.
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I did not encounter any romance in this story. I found it to be an enjoyable game, and I particularly appreciated learning about the Zmey and Koschei the Deathless. I’m a sucker for dragons though, and I was on a long train ride home. That’s not to say that the game isn’t a good one, but I think it gets better as you play more of the chapters, and it takes some time to get into it.
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The thing about non-binary in mythology though it’s rare it’s deeply mystical and it has much more significant meaning.
It’s not something that is every day or arbitrary. If I was ever gonna put it in there it wouldn’t be in the modern perspective if I was gonna make a story about myth or folklore.
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Loki was A trickster god they go against the expectations. Apparently he only did that once and he has no density as a man.
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It’s very interesting of that non-binary myth. Because the thing is being on binary in the ancient world how even up until God maybe hundred years ago. It wasn’t some arbitrary gender choice. It had deep mystical meaning as you see in that Babylonian myth it explains where they exist in society in their purpose. Which are pretty much outcasted seers.
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Rogar, you’re making a lot of very general statements that are both ignorant and offensive.
If you want to talk about specific cultures that you have actual academic knowledge of, then feel free to discuss that culture. Otherwise, it’s time to stop spouting bigotry.
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