Chop Shop [Crime WIP | CH.02 released]

[idonotlikeusernames]

@losingface

i would include Gus, because he doesn’t engage in violence for the majority of the series, but eventually does when he is pushed to his absolute limit

Gus, along with Walt may be good examples for the kind of pent up rage mc may have and I’ll note that Gus, in his own way, is the most vengeful and sadistic character of the entire franchise. The main difference is that he is a lot more patient and less emotional than Walt.
He takes years to plot the downfall of the Cartel and he continues torturing Don Hector for years more after that. If that isn’t dedication to revenge, I don’t know what is.
If mc is allowed to be at all like that, then consider me hooked too, even if it is gonna take years for mc to finally get his sweet revenge.

@losingface

Lydia

Is basically the opposite of the mc, because she seems to come from very privileged circumstances. If my mc had been blessed with those he’d have happily become a teacher with a larger financial buffer and the story would never have happened.
I’m actually half expecting Jonno’s dad to be one of those white collar crime types to be honest.

@losingface

i haven’t gotten to the crews history and backgrounds yet,

Except that there are hints that Maz comes from some position of privilege…mentioning his mother’s (executive) assistant.

Walt and Gus are the only ones with motivations that include revenge in some way and Gus is the only one explicitly driven by it.

[Keldin]

Sooooo played through it and well…

Its hitting hard into the “Too bleak, stopped caring” zone.

All we’ve seen with the MC is every single event making things worse for them with without even any “light at the end of the tunnel” spots of hope.

Its difficult to care what happens next since I already know that it ends with “…and then things got worse”.

Then with a wombo combo it’s also got, as TV Tropes refers to it “Eight deadly words”.

“I don’t care what happens to these people.”

Aside from a couple side-characters all the characters are, frankly, terrible and/or flat out unlikeable people.

Even your supposed best friend knew the celebration was going to be about the engagement and not MC’s birthday but went with it anyways

As for the crew, there’s no ambiguity, they’re all terrible and unlikable.

I mean seriously, in the middle of a heist of a supercar they decide to pickpocket someone, someone who at a glance is out of place and having a terrible night?

Then-if you don’t agree at the start-they guilt/coerce you into getting in if you just walk away by holding up a ton of traffic and also making your character an accomplice?

Then thief chick outright tells you she doesn’t feel bad about the theft which is honestly kinda gross since she purposely went after someone she knew she could emotionally manipulate, again, on a massive heist.

Then the update ends with Dilani outright threating your mother.

That’s just straight up beyond the pale.

I like your writing but the presentations of the characters and the plot are really really bleak.

Now then, I’m going to go do another run-through as an angry sociopath for catharsis :V

[losingface]

debating whether to reply to you or not has been a toughie, but after some deliberation if think i’ve come to the conclusion that you’ve had an extremely bad faith reading of the text and we have very different views when it comes to criminals.

yes the MCs life is bleak, it’s supposed to be bleak! it’s quite literally based on my own experiences working in a corporate office and how bad that environment is for some people. i do agree that chop shop fits into many tropes, but it’s strange to see that you’re implying using tropes is a bad thing? tropes are narrative devices used in media to help an audience recognise patterns and themes. some people might view tropes as good and some bad but tropes are a part of media and are well documented in media theory. that’s just a part of writing.

let me clarify that KJ did not know about the Jonno/Natasha engagement. he literally states that to the MC during their last conversation at the bar. so, if you’re going to criticise something, at least get the context right.

i think that going into a crime game and being surprised at meeting ‘bad people’ with questionable morals, ‘gross’ and ‘beyond the pale’ behaviour and bad intentions is laughable. of course these characters are going to be ‘unlikeable’ - they’re criminals, which puts them in an extremely grey area of what is good and what is bad. it’s one of the many themes that’s going to be presented throughout the entire game.

i have to stress that this is a piece of fiction with characters that serve a narrative purpose. they are not real. your read of the text seems to come from a moral high ground and, quite frankly, your view of criminals is very telling and very different to mine - especially considering these characters haven’t done anything violent. emotional manipulation is probably one of the nicer things they’ve done so far. why would a criminal care about pickpocketing a random citizen who is having a bad night? the characters are not here to fawn over the MC, they have goals and arcs to fulfil.

i need to add that it’s very easy for people to dehumanise criminals, it’s why some people would rather lock them up under harsher sentences than offer ex-convicts rehabilitation. we have to remember that people who commit crimes are still people - again this plays into the theme of grey chop shop is going to explore.

to finish - your criticisms are all subjective (given your views on criminals at face value), useless and not constructive. if you don’t like the game, i’m certain it’s in the COG policy to keep those thoughts to yourself. this is clearly not the story for you. i am strongly advising you to not play again or comment further.

[John_Smith2]

You said in the original post that you wanted to hear feedback; if you only want to hear positive feedback, an update to that might help facilitate that goal.

[losingface]

i did not say i only wanted positive feedback, please don’t put words in my mouth. the previous reply is criticism. feedback is constructive; none of their points guide me for improvement.

[John_Smith2]

A quick google search shows me several definitions of feedback which include criticism but .

It’s hard to view feedback as valuable when you immediately dismiss all of it so yeah I get why you didn’t look at it that way. People’s views of things are always going to be subjective to varying degrees.

Also not a big fan of it when someone who legitimately played your game multiple times and tried to tell you the parts of it they didn’t like/thought could use some improvement is being told that this clearly isn’t the game for them and they shouldn’t play it again or comment again because you didn’t like their feedback, or criticism, if you want to call it that. It doesn’t exactly make it seem like you’re actually open to feedback and/or criticism about your writing, which is a shame.

But I won’t clog up your thread any farther. Good luck to you.

[Keldin]

@losingface

if you don’t like the game, i’m certain it’s in the COG policy to keep those thoughts to yourself. this is clearly not the story for you. i am strongly advising you to not play again or comment further.

Nowhere is it a policy to “keep it to yourself if you find something to criticize”, this is a public forum, on the Internet.

By opening up discussion, you are opening up discussion, if you wish for positive feedback you need to accept there will be negative feedback, that is what it means to open a discussion in public.

Telling me to not comment further is particularly silly, that is not your call to make.

Telling me to not play the game even after I mentioned I would replay it for fun is pushing the envelope on silly to bordering on just insulting.

@losingface

your read of the text seems to come from a moral high ground and, quite frankly, your view of criminals is very telling and very different to mine

@losingface

to finish - your criticisms are all subjective (given your views on criminals at face value)

@losingface

i need to add that it’s very easy for people to dehumanise criminals, it’s why some people would rather lock them up under harsher sentences than offer ex-convicts rehabilitation. we have to remember that people who commit crimes are still people - again this plays into the theme of grey chop shop is going to explore.

This however?

No.

This is insulting, no this is just offensive.

Do not presume my stances nor my background.

Do not tell me what my own stances are, do not tell me what my own experiences are, do not attempt to psychoanalyze me as if you are privy to my personal life, and frankly stay out of my personal life.

And, to get ahead of this, do not try to act as if my negative feedback on the story in any way is equatable to your impropriety and violation of personal boundaries.

Ask yourself this, if you are talking to someone in real life, how exactly would you feel about saying these things, how appropriate would you find saying these things to someone?

My criticism of the story is criticism of the story, I’m attempting to be cordial here, and I’d ask that you at least try to have a base level of decency in talking to another person.

[losingface]

found here.
please stop posting on my thread - if you would like to discuss further my dms are available!

[Raptorofwar]

Bro really pulled out the TVTropes page as though it lent them the credence of a literary professor. The story’s fine.

[An_Eyewitness]

I understand that it’s required for the plot that MC gets in the car but I find the response to the “walk home” option frankly weird behaviour. If somebody (on me refusing a ride from a stranger) proceeded to follow me in their car telling me to get in after I told them no, that comes off to me as creepy and weird and a very compelling argument to stay out of the car at all costs. Like, why are you so invested in me being in your car, stranger? I know this character’s not a creep, you know this character’s not a creep but in that moment when they’re pursuing MC down the street I find it really difficult to justify why my character would get in a car with them. By picking that choice they’ve already shown they don’t trust Maz and Maz then stalking the MC isn’t exactly proving them wrong

Since all the answers in this scene ultimately mean “get in the car” I would not give the option to say no in this case, just varying degrees of/reasons for yes. Alternatively you could have the “no” options lead to an “are you sure?” type choice and if they pick “no” early end, no game for you because you chose not to get involved in the plot.

On a broader scale, does this anti-crime path need to be here if it’s just going to make people more anti-every character? I get that the characters are people and not necessarily nice people at that, but if you pick the “not wanting to be part of this” options they pursue MC down streets, throw them in a van to kidnap them and threaten their mother. It’s not even about my view of criminals, I just would find it incredibly difficult to like and work with people who did those things to me. Does this set of options need to be here when it leads to the same place (MC doing crimes) but the characters who are presumably intended to be a least a little bit likeable and sympathetic come off way worse for extorting, blackmailing and generally forcing a down on their luck person to do things they don’t want to do?

[losingface]

thank you for the insight! this has been very helpful.

funnily enough, i had discussed ending the game early with a beta reader after checking out Tin Star but decided against it. i will definitely reconsider adding it again though

i do think players should have some autonomy when it comes to how they feel about crime and whether they want to go on that journey. i like the choices that make the mc push back and i’m trying to be aware of not railroading to add some balance. this could definitely be fixed by ending the game early too.

[idonotlikeusernames]

@An_Eyewitness

I understand that it’s required for the plot that MC gets in the car but I find the response to the “walk home” option frankly weird behaviour.

I liked the walk home option best though and along with snapping at K it is one of the best moments in the game for me at present because it shows just how ridiculous Maz can be when they’re busy causing a traffic jam.
Also I figure that in spite of his shit life my mc keeps in relatively decent shape for a guy his age and the UK is not as much of a gun culture as the US so my mc never really felt threatened by Maz there.

Different strokes for different folks I guess but I find it nice that at least a little persistence is needed get my mc in Maz, or rather his boss’ supercar.
And, yes, it is the rich kid act and the supercar that make my mc initially reluctant to accept a ride, had Maz pulled up in a more normal car or even an old beater my mc would have been much more ready to accept a free ride home but coming out of a shitty evening where he has felt like nothing but a prop and plaything for a bunch of rich kids he would be initially reluctant to accept anything from anyone who looks to be part of that same, shitty crowd.
It is further exactly Maz’s silly persistence that does wear down my mc’s initial reluctance mostly by showing him that Maz probably doesn’t really belong to that rich kid crowd either because if he had been and even considered offering a ride then they would have expect profuse thanks and praise from my mc for doing such obviously good and noble charitable works for the downtrodden. The fact that it goes nothing like that with Maz is what ultimately convinces my mc to get in the fancy car.

Just my personal line of reasoning though. But I really hope it doesn’t get scrapped as it is only one of three points where I felt my mc had real agency, the other ones being lashing out at KJ and haggling over the bribe amount with Four. Thus removing this bit would, for me, remove one of the precious few hopeful moments currently in the game.

In general I hope that mc gets a bit more of such moments in chapter 3, as even the first two seasons of Breaking Bad had some good moments for Walt in-between the humiliation conga they also throw at him.

[AlexHaydenX]

Yup, I think the criticism that does deserve attention is the MC needs a chapter or a scene in which they shine, if they keep getting humiliated lots of players would be turned off.

[Raptorofwar]

On the one hand, I agree that in real life that’d be weird as hell. On the other hand, it’s objectively my favorite choice out of the set there, so I feel conflicted changing it.