Choice of Rebels: Uprising — Lead the revolt against a bloodthirsty empire!

Havie: didn’t previously articulate the genders of the nb characters to the degree of detail now being asked, and wants to make sure whatever he now makes up is consistent with past work on gender in Nyr culture. Which, yes, is partly tucked away in old notes I’m having trouble recovering. :slight_smile:

Idnlun, since there’s no in-game reason to fear for Ganelon’s life, let me clarify that the out-of-game reason he won’t show up from Game 2 onward is that I never planned him as a recurring character and thus didn’t incorporate a lasting variable to check if he died in G1.

While you’re free to make headcanon that may be more interesting than what I do with him, I don’t think any nobles were ever aware than Ganny was sharing book reviews with a helot. I’d suggest his offscreen death is down to the increasing chaos of the revolt, not Hectorian vengefulness – though since it will happen offscreen and unmentioned, you have full freedom as a reader to imagine it differently and incorporate that into your responses to Hector. Authorial headcanon is not binding on readers. :slight_smile:

9 Likes

You didn’t… think that when you were designing a non-binary character… how exactly they were not in the binary?

Yep! They’re still character sketches, and will stay that way until I actually begin writing them. Which I might well have done in typical androgyne fashion if you’d not just highlighted that as a cliche to avoid. Glad for the chance to try fleshing them out in a bit more detail – but honestly, until they start revealing themselves in actual dialogue and action, I won’t have a full handle on them.

2 Likes

This… this is an understandable save. I was so ready to be offended, Havie. Now you’ve ruined my evening. Somehow. You madman.

63f09c32-c110-488b-9ad3-f38433755c77

4 Likes

Which is funny because out of game we know he’s apparently a (wannabe) rebel himself, though of the Laconnier variety.

2 Likes

I’ve finally started creating my helot characters and that has also brought me back to Traitor pit. Questions going around my head and all that so I decided to test some things out…

And I noticed something interesting that maybe, probably, might hint the identity of the Traitor :eyes:

Summary

So I noticed there are always extra guards if you attack against the De Merre House during winter and stopped the Harrowing in the first chapter…But!

In one of my test playthroughs I allowed the helots get harrowed which led only mc, father, and Radmar (Breden got exiled) stumbling upon bandits of Whendward and curious note if mc goes to attack De Merre House…no extra guards. No mention of 18 guards that were there in one of my official playthroughs when mc stopped the Harrowing

Played the chapter again and this time Breden was also part of the little escapees from Keriatou prison, and same thing again with De Merre. No extra guards. No hint they expected any bandits storming their way.

And I thought it’s important to note because the guards are always seen as a big hint of the traitor from Rim Square working against the rebels.

So going by that it would exclude Breden, and Radmar as traitors from Rim Square.
You know who it wouldn’t exclude from the Possible Traitor list? Aunt Joana, because she’s not part of the small-band and is still in Rim Square.

But if mc decides to stop the Harrower, everyone flees, and mc attacks De Merre the extra guards are there. Doesn’t matter if Breden is part of the rebel group or not…However Old Joana is part of the rebel group this time around no matter what

tenor

pls take this with a grain of salt :joy: I saw this one scene and jumped by the chance to get more traitor theory going on in my head (also I needed excuse to use that gif)

btw @Havenstone will it possible to learn Kala/Kalt’s and Suzane/Simon’s past in the book 2 if mc didn’t go sheep raiding and wants to get to know them better?

4 Likes

1 Like

Yes, absolutely. And more about them too.

I’ll be off the grid for the next few days, following in the footsteps of some friends and colleagues to visit school rebuilding work in a remote corner of the country. See you all in a week or so…

11 Likes

Fine bit of irony isn’t it? Unfortunately he seems to lack the humor needed to appreciate it. From his perspective we are no doubt rebelling all wrong, not that anything we could say or do would be worthy of his respect.

2 Likes

It is very very funny. That hector (Mara ex lover) Is a laconier and Mara is a Laconier However He is adamantly Trying kill Mara.
@Havenstone I will still trying you let me some kind of closure with Hector. It doesn’t have to be a romance. But as Having a summer together and supposedly under same faction. I would love seen him wanted to marry Mara when she became a real force in the area. And have a chance to send him away for how he treated us.

Also what is the consideration of Pansexual people Mara is pansexual and I am wondering how Simon and people in general accept that.

1 Like

Pansexuality is just another name for bisexuality, and if you’re attracted to female Breden, for example, and leave her for Simon or Kalt, they… honestly don’t care.

What you’re really asking is “how will they react to non-binary people existing and my possibly being attracted to that,” which doesn’t fall under biphobia, but transphobia.

1 Like

Yes exactly that. I didn’t know how to asked.

I don’t think it’s their business who you’re attracted to, and they’ll always be playersexual. It’s not as if they’re hostile toward non-binary people, it’s just that for many countries in this gameworld they don’t know what non-binary is.

Simon, Kalt and the like probably won’t care who you’re attracted to, as long as it includes them. They’ll probably still be available to non-binary player characters. I don’t know how they’ll react to characters like Jev and Laj.

1 Like

I say that because in some games other characters and the society judges players in base sexual preference to portrait the views of people. So i was curious how helots vs nobles view that preference due helots have been conditioned to have certain views about breeding and that relationships should be focused to that

Nobles don’t care, as their lines go through one of adoption too. Helots don’t react badly to Radmar being gay or you being gay - their conditioning in public hasn’t stopped them from being… people.

1 Like

Well then they are far better than the people of my city lol. Anyway I am the boss if someone is an asshole they can go hell.


3 Likes

Right! I’m back from a week of school visits, leeches, ridiculously steep trails, dalbhat tarkari twice a day, and scribbling notes on gender in a made-up world. So where were we?

I may be *slightly* taking the long way round to answering these questions....

So let’s start by talking about gender in the Empire of Halassur (which of course is neither Jev’s nor Laj-jas’s home context, but bear with me). Halassurq society is the most gender-stratified in the gameworld. Its binary classifications of human nature include the following:

Feminine: agriculture, medicine, priesthood, philosophy, astrology, book-writing, home, garden, stars and moon, night, water, tides, designing things, intellectual labor, theoretical Theurgy, alchemy, giving birth, green, blue, black, robes, veils, long braids.

Masculine: hunting, war, government, trade, market, oral tradition, epistle-writing, travel, sun, day, fire, constructing things, physical labor, practical Theurgy (notably the military sort), siring children, red, yellow, white, tunic and trousers, makeup, short hair and lengthy beards.

These gender norms (and the pro-natalism that pervades Halassurq culture) are strongly reinforced by the Empire’s religion, which reveres Great Mother Ummay, her Consort Kormuz, and Evren the Firstborn. The heart of divine reality is a gendered family unit; the Halassurqs think the Karagonds’ genderless “Xthonos” is a laughable corruption of Kormuz.

That said, as with any real-world binary gender norms, Halassur’s aren’t followed to the letter even by broadly socially conforming cis people. Agricultural Theurgy is largely done by women, despite crop-growing being rather practical Theurgy. There are male intellectuals, though they’re treated as exceptional and not very respectable.

And the Halassurq language (which is older and simpler than the rest of its civilisation) doesn’t have grammatical gender at all. It uses the gender-neutral “o/onu” rather than “he/him” or “she/her.” (A feature shared by the Nyryq dialect spoken in the Hegemony.)

Now we come to Nyrish culture, which has been shaped in reaction to the strong gender binaries of their cousins in Halassur. The differences stem from two main sources.

First and more flamboyantly, in the century before the Karagond conquest, there was a popular sect in the Nyrnakan Republic who abandoned the Nyrish gods to worship the dominant Halassurq triad–but with the twist that Evren the Firstborn was reinterpreted as an androgyne. (The Halassurq holy texts don’t specify Evren’s gender, as o was sacrificed and resurrected in the form of a dragon before o could fulfil any of o’s gender roles.)

This widespread Heresy of the Firstborn popularised the idea of a sacred third gender–people who performed both male and female roles and dressed in a striking mix of masculine and feminine styles/colours. Most of the Evrenite priests were from this third gender, as over time were a number of prominent Evrenite intellectuals, soldiers, and artists. The outrage of the faraway Halassurqs did nothing to reduce the popularity of this reinterpretation.

Like all Nyrish religion, the Evrenites lost most of their credibility when their gods failed to hold back the Karagonds. So the literal sacralisation of androgynes didn’t last; but the concept of a third gender remained, and androgynes remain highly respected in Nyrish society.

Second, a more mainstream current in Nyrish society prioritised the needs of family and tribe over Halassurq gender rules. In isolated pastoral tribes, a person might well be called on to carry on a family member’s expertise regardless of their designated birth sex. The doctor’s son was often more likely to make a good doctor than the huntmaster’s daughter, and vice versa.

Because of the strength of gender norms in the Halassurq root culture, the Nyr didn’t simply shrug off their sense that this was problematic. But they evolved a ritual that helped justify it: at age 15 a child would be formally named after their most recently deceased relative, regardless of gender, and seek to take on that relative’s most vital roles within their community. This spread widely until it became the near-universal norm.

To be clear, a Nyr named after their recently deceased grandfather will not be socially considered male – there will just be an expectation that they’ll try in some significant way to fill the gap in the community left by their grandfather. That goes beyond merely the gendered roles. Maybe grandpa was one of the great hunters, or one of the great tailors, or one of the great talkers and tellers of jokes. Maybe he was known for his affection to the village’s children, or his conflict resolution, or his ability to hold his liquor.

Of course, it will likely be impossible for our young Nyr to take on all of those roles; there’s a recognition that not everyone is well-suited to take on a family role (and a rich vein of comic stories and jokes about e.g. people who try to take on their uncle’s role as a talker despite being desperately shy). But as long as they’ve taken on some, they’ll have met their filial duty.

So the Nyr still more or less inherit Halassurq ideas of which objects/roles are masculine or feminine, but there’s no surprise (let alone shame) when an individual performs roles of a different gender. Rather, there’s an assumption that they’re playing an important role for their family/community by doing so.

Between the cultural prevalence of androgynes and the naming convention, there’s also no way to know someone’s gender from their name or role; if they don’t clearly present as male, female, or androgyne, there’s no way to know besides asking them. But (due in large part to the legacy of Halassurq attitudes, where asking someone their gender would be a deathly insult) the Nyr consider it impolite/embarrassing to ask, and so generally make highly subtle indirect inquiries or just let it go unresolved. All in all, it’s a reasonably comfortable culture in which to be nonbinary.

Which brings us to Jevahir, the Nyrish nb person who will be popping up soon in Game 2–named for their grandfather, and inheritor of his roles as hunter and external diplomat. My current conception of o’s gender (to use the Nyrish pronoun, though singular-they will be an acceptable Shayardene translation) is that Jev is “unknown gender,” even to onu-self. No point in the Nyrish trinary feels right, so o doesn’t see a need or reason to claim any of them. O has become adept at fending off the periodic attempts of other Nyr to ascertain what sex/ gender o is.

Jev wears hunting leathers, which are associated with a masculine role, as is the kohl o likes to wear around o’s eyes, but o wears o’s hair in a feminine braid. That isn’t the sort of strikingly androgynous presentation that would lead other Nyr to class o as third-gender, or indeed to assume much of anything.

Let’s turn now to the Abhumans–or the Seracca, as they call themselves. Without getting sucked too deep into that lore-pot: the Seracca see themselves first and foremost as spirits, which are immaterial, infinitely changeable, and have no fixed nature. (This is a contrast with the northern human creeds, all of which believe in a material soul rather than an immaterial spirit.)

From ancient times, the Seracca have revered animals, seeing them as spirits that pursued different courses through the world and discovered new glories. Through self-change (i.e. auto-Plektosis), the Seracca seek to reclaim some of those animal perfections, while retaining the human glories of intellect and conscious self-change.

The Seracca are convinced that Spirit has no gender. All the dimorphisms, binaries, trinaries, and other categories are one more changeable aspect that comes with flesh. To understand the sexual dimorphisms of the body well enough to change them is praiseworthy; many Seracca will seek to change sex at some point in their (long) lifetime.

To change one’s body to be intersex or no-gender/no-sex is semi-sacred, as one then more closely reflects the nature of Spirit. Abhumans from the guild (Yega’a) of Seers, the religious/ritual specialists, are particularly likely to make this change–some after they’ve had children, others before.

Which brings us to Laj-jas, the impish, lithe, and whiskery member of the Merchant Yega’a whom you’ll meet in the Merchant’s Pale of Shayard. Laj considers themself to be gender-variable, with their spirit shifting frequently between genders faster than their flesh could possibly keep up. They therefore dress and present accordingly, based on how they feel on a given day.

Laj changes their physical sex much more often than the average Seracca; generally by the time one transition is finished, they’re ready to take pride in the accomplishment for a few weeks, and then start shifting their body in a different direction. By contrast, they feel they’ve honed both nose and tail to perfection; those remain the same whatever other changes Laj may initiate.

So that’s the current state of my thinking, on which I now declare open season. What’s problematic? What’s cliche? What can be improved? :slight_smile:

(And btw, let’s keep the above lore out of the Wiki for now, both because it’s still subject to change and because there’s likely to be a more comprehensive, organised lore-dump there at some point on Halassur, Nyryal, and the Abhumans that will include the above material in reshuffled form.)

9 Likes

Sorry I just keep fucking thinking of the desert kingdom of Halassar and their worship of the mother Goddess, and their also seeing a magical desert storm as the embodiment of all evil and also having a big war with a fantasy medieval European-based country while simultaneously being part of an empire.

This desert kingdom sucks ass it’s got boring gender roles and no fish assassin lesbian consorts. I want out immediately

Oh boy, the gender trinary… just as boring (big yawn)

I hate to think of a sickly family. I am Jo, son of Jo, who was also son of Jo, because people called Jo die in my family a lot.

My name is Ian and I play golf everybody. My role is making racist comments over Sunday lunch

Finally, something I can get behind. We slow Harrow transphobes. My city now

I like this. I like this a lot. You’re doing that thing where. Where. No it’s good, I like this. Trinary bad. Non-binary not “third gender”. Discussing this. This is good.

Jev: mascara and chaps.
NB cowboy dresses like my mother

I’m getting some kamuy vibes from this, yeah?

They’re all trans and there’s nothing you can do to stop them

I’m still nb but I’d wouldn’t want to… change myself too much like that. Also equating nb-ism to physical sex, means that you’re putting physically nb people on a sacred pedestal.

It’s like “trans women who have had the operation are more valid than those who haven’t” but fantasy worlded up to be “nb people who have had “neutralising” are better” which is not good, as the main jokes against non-binary people are invalidation of their gender based off their genitals. You’re still doing this in your fantasy world by putting intersex and I’d go as so far to say mutilated people higher than nb people who choose to remain DFAB or DMAB.
You’re doing that thing that cis people do where our genitals becomes a really important or magic thing in your trans “accepting” lore for like… no fuckin reason.
which is Bad.

I see. Genderfluid. and… Genderflux…

Thanks but do I gotta know this? Did I not say gender? Is gender not a different thing from physical sex? Why do I gotta know genitals again? Why are cis people fascinated with trans genitals and sex changes again? As if that has anything to do with - especially non-binary -gender?

Me taking a sledgehammer to this: ah yes, time to take the pieces out that I like and ignore absolutely everything else

3 Likes

While I personally didn’t have this interpretation reading through the lore-dump, I can see how it could be interpreted this way (presumably unintentionally by Havenstone).

@Havenstone I’m having a hard time seeing the rational behind this. What makes intersex and quasi-neutered eh…configurations… more reflective of one’s spirit? If all types of genitals are aspects of your spirit, what specifically makes these more inline with the nature of that spirit?

(Obligatory I’m not in the trans community, so please take all of this with several grains of salt)