Choice of Rebels Part 1 WIP thread

[Havenstone]

Well, life is always full, so I don’t promise to react to all of them; but that doesn’t mean I’ve not read and benefited from them, or even that I won’t do something about them.

If I like the suggestion enough, it’ll definitely be worth the time it takes to make the change/add the choices – as earlier in the thread when people suggested adding the choice(s) as a noble not to like helots.

To answer your earlier good questions: no, women don’t work entirely shirtless, and low class men occasionally do. Breasts have an erotic significance in the nations of the Hegemony which a breastless chest does not. Whether that difference in the scope of nudity constitutes a gender double standard, I leave to your judgment. What Karagon does not have is any idea that female nakedness is more shameful or publicly unacceptable than male (per the historic reason you offered before that women didn’t get executed in ways involving public nudity), female chastity more essential, or female sex more in need of control.

Alastor captains are expected to know how to use a sword, but not all can afford one; Gellard having one suggests that he’s not poor. Whether or not he’s a master, you may well have a chance to discover.

[FairyGodfeather]

Because there’s an Oglaf for every occasion. http://oglaf.com/bitterfruit/ (NSFW)

Why is there a double standard in regards to nudity? Why do women’s chests have an erotic significance that men’s do not?

Women’s breasts at least have a function, whereas men’s chests only have aesthetic value. Do you not think that the glistening torsos of hard-working men, their perfect abs, their sculpted muscles, could be every bit as distracting, every bit as capable of inspiring lust, as the breasts of a woman?

What of breast-feeding? Is that something that must be done behind closed doors? Even by workers busy in the field?

Why is there this double-standard?

[idonotlikeusernames]

Indeed, I find cute guys far more distracting than most women.

[WulfyK]

Oh, I’m surprised. When you mentioned the nudity taboo I thought it means a Victorian level of skin coverage for both genders with exposing unclothed legs and upper arms already considered a shameful thing. Now it seems the Canon only demands that the genitals and the female nipples shall be covered? Or must a certain percentage of the body be covered at one time? Like not uncovering all four limbs at once?

As @FairyGodfeather already made a good point about the treatment of male and female chests, I want to ask about other gendered clothing parts. Are the leggings worn only by the men? do women always wear skirts/dresses? Can men wear kilts or something similar? And are there any other clothes worn only by males or by females? What differences exist between noble and helot clothes and between the different regions?

Altogether, I strongly suggest you to add an entry on clothing to the world index.

Thank you for explaing Gellard’s sword here, but I think this should be done in-game to avoid the player’s confusion And I’m glad that the MC will have another encounter with him. I’m sure you can make him an interesting character.

[jcury]

I think this link will help with that.

http://www.legendsandchronicles.com/ancient-civilizations/ancient-sparta/spartan-clothing-and-dress/

[idonotlikeusernames]

Wasn’t it said somewhere that in Shayard and Karagon and presumably the rest of the world fashion is more reminiscent of the 16th century in general than ancient Greece. Also there has got to be some local variation Shayard being a mix of old England and France combined doesn’t seem to have the climate that would let one get away with wearing those sorts of clothes especially in the colder regions. Furthermore nudity in general does not seem to be as acceptable in Karagon and the rest of the gameworld as we know it compared to ancient Sparta.

[FairyGodfeather]

Wikipedia, often a good place to start with research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toplessness

The only reason I was asking was because I find it’s far too easy to just go with our own cultural modesty standards. To not question the double standard of men being allowed to bare their chests but women being unable to do so. If there’s a reason for that double standard then that’s acceptable, I just don’t think it should be taken for granted.

[WulfyK]

@jcury, @idonotlikeusernames That’s why I hope @Havenstone will describe the fashion in greater detail.

So far, we only have canon decriptions of a male helot wearing a drab tunic, cowl, and leggings, mentions of the Alastors wearing armor, helots of both genders wearing tunics and theurges, piligrims and the architelone wearing long coats.

@FairyGodfeather I’m also quite astonished that @Havenstone uses a gendered standard in clothing but hesitates to use gendered surnames. My impression is that the latter is far easier to justify.

[Sneaks]

Just how badass will a MC with a 6 in combat be?

[jcury]

Yes Spartans were more tolerant of nudity then rest of Greece but since the Helots were from the general region I am assuming the clothing wouldn’t differ too much from the rest of Greece at the time.

[WulfyK]

I think the political, religious and military features of the Karagond Hegemony are based on the Byzantine Empire and not on Sparta. The Nobles aren’t super-soldiers and they openly enjoy all kind of luxuries that were foribdden for historical Spartans.

I guess @Havenstone called the slaves Helots in order to emphasize how horrible their life is because in real life, Spartan helots were treated worse then slaves in the rest of Greece and because the term sounds exotic. Am I right?

[WinterHawk]

I am not certain defining modesty (as in here is the line do not cross it) for either gender would be of any real significance to the game world. The cannon still commands modesty and chastity for both genders regardless of where the lines are drawn (be the line uniform or differing for genders). Nothing in game seems to point towards towards gender issues being one of the themes.

@Havenstone mentioned earlier in the gendered surname discussion “where I ask readers to get their heads around a detailed history, naming convention, philosophy, or other bit of worldbuilding, I’d like it to reinforce the themes of the game.”

Clothing and chastity might would only help reinforce the themes in areas of class or nantionality. Personally as much as I like good and interesting world building I don’t enjoy it for it’s own sake; I enjoy it when it provides information into a strange and interesting world, and is relevant to my character and plot line.

I do agree with @WulfyK that the clothing could be expand on. One question about that which came to my mind is are thureges and the Architelone wearing cloaks as status and power symbols or are cloaks more common in Karragond as a nationalist symbol? We also have mentions of nobles having solider richer weaves in their clothing, is there anything else which might distinguish one noble from another? Something that a noble like de Galis might wear that the Keriatou would certainly not.

[jcury]

@WulfyK No actually, helots were treated much better in Sparta then in rest of Greece.

Quote from the source

While slaves in other ancient Greek states was far less favourable for the slaves, the helots were considered to be treated with more favour in Sparta. It is known for example, that while the helots would farm and grow produce to provide to the Spartan citizens, they would also be allowed to keep sufficient crops for themselves. The amount divided in some cases is told to be an entire half of their crop.

Helots in ancient Sparta also had the benefit of being able to live as a family, a helot could have a wife or a husband, and even children. In fact the reproduction of slaves in Sparta was not as tightly controlled as in other Greek states, and it’s considered that the Helot population grew over the time they worked for the state.

[WulfyK]

@jcury but weren’t annual killings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypteia ) unique to Sparta?

[Havenstone]

A quick note on the historical antecedents of Karagon/Shayard/etc.

I’m not a fan of the Guy Gavriel Kay school of fantasy, whose worlds mimic Earth-historical cultures so closely that they beg the question of why the author didn’t just write a historical novel. (GGK’s answer has something to do with the privacy of historic figures, which strikes me as just barely on the respectable side of eccentric).

It probably goes without saying that both Shayard and Karagon are, fundamentally, mash-ups which draw on multiple streams of history and speculation. Karagon is a Greek-inflected culture mainly because that allows me to pull in a rich religious and philosophical vocabulary from our world, in a game which is meant to be very much about political philosophy and faith (while hopefully also staying fun). Greek has also contributed so many rich words to the English language that it’s both possible and fun to play with the language of a Britain-colonized-by-Byzantines, where the high-culture vocabulary is Greek rather than Latinate.

Some of the Greek elements are classical, many are Hellenistic, some are Byzantine… and some are pure speculation about what we’d see in a Hellenic empire that remained world-beating for three centuries during the dawn of a blood-magic-driven industrial revolution (starting much earlier than in our own world).

So there will be many places where the nations of CoR differ from their most obvious historical antecedents. I’m concerned with the internal plausibility and coherence of the civilization, not consistency with the Earth template(s).

Which is to say: @FairyGodfeather’s challenge is entirely legitimate. Just because the Earth cultures I’ve had in mind as models for Karagon and Shayard have tended to eroticize breasts doesn’t mean that needs to carry across to the gameworld. It’s consistent with the gender-egalitarian but sexually controlling culture of the Hegemony that the higher classes wear clothes concealing all skin bar the neck, head, and hands, while the laboring classes (both men and women) wear less when they’re hard at work – and are equally shamed for it, regardless of sex. So please retcon my previous answer accordingly.

I’m still chewing over the specific clothing styles of the world, which is one reason that the game as written is a bit ambiguous on the topic. The other is that I don’t personally find that very important when it comes to immersing myself in a world; indeed, more than a few lines describing clothing and I’m more likely to be pushed out than drawn in. (Looking at you, George RR Martin). Obviously, that’s not the case for everyone, though, and I don’t want to write so little on the topic that I alienate people.

I don’t currently intend to add any more sections to the World Index, as I think it’s already a bit long. A lot of people start reading with the (whole) World Index, and I’d like to get them into the game as soon as possible. But I’ll try to write more explicit descriptions of clothing into the text, to satisfy the curious.

[Sneaks]

I find myself not caring at all about people’s clothing in a story unless it’s telling me something I need to know about whoever is wearing it.

[WulfyK]

Good to know all of this, @Havenstone. I t helped to undertand the gamesworld.

Is seenig other people partially undressed or even fully naked considered sinful/disturbing? And do the helots themselves share the upper classes’ attitudes towards modesty? If they have a more relaxed attitude this might be stressed out in some scenes, especially with a noble MC who has to live in a camp full of helots.

As to the world index: Especially as your world is a mash-up of cultures, it needs a detailed description to avoid misunderstanding and confusion by some players.

On the very first page you explain that there are two kinds of readers and give a choice to continue with the story or read the WI first. Perhaps you could make it more clear that the WI is only supplementary and it’s not neccessary to read it completely to understand the game for those who are not interested in background knowledge, but expand it in order to satisfy those who like a more detailed descrption of your world.

And as I promised, here are some proposals for improvement (not all, but more will come later):

In the wineroom, if the MC is helot but stops singing, the noble version of the massacre is presented.
Also, the helot version lacks a description of what happened afterwards (Iarla dead, the alastors taking over the wineroom, Geralt leaving after three years)

When the MC speaks with San Hawarden, he says that the Pelematou offer a gold drachem for Alless, but when the crowd plunders the market, silver drachems and golden staters are mentioned, do gold drachems also exist ar ist just a mistake?

If the MC is a helot and can read, it’s said that s/he was taught by an unnamed friendly deacon. Wouldn’t it be better to make Ecclesiast Olynna the teacher? Especially if the religious background was chosen. This would give her a bit more importance.

What appened to the third Laconnian pretender after the defeat? Was he killed in battle or captured and executed?

When choosing the weaknesses, how about a choice “Being unlucky”? The MC wouldn’t have a 0 stat then, but succesful missions would bring less money and result in more follower deaths then.

If the MC is a female noble and tells Breden that she suspects him/her, Breden calls her a dandy, though the proper female form is dandyzette (or you can use some other word)

Also, there should be a question if the MC is honest about the trust or suspicion after s/he tells it Breden.

It is said that the MC has around three hundred followers when leaving Rim Square, but the actual stat is significantly lower. How about making the number of followers slightly dependent on the CHA stat? How many people (helots, nobles, yeomen/merchants and alastors) do live there anyway?

[idonotlikeusernames]

The fact remains that how one chooses to dress is a potent tool in presenting a certain image to the world, one that should certainly not be underestimated in the case of the leader of a Rebellion.
For instance, I picture my helot mage basically wearing ragged robes and very simple sandals at most times right up until the end of the rebellion and even after the end, should the rebellion win I still see him eschewing any fancy clothes and instead opting for something well made but still simple and practical.

But it is also true that I’m one who mostly likes GRRM’s descriptions as they help me visualise the world and characters better and visualising the characters in this world.
As I’ve said probably due to the fact that there’s gun powder and an industrial revolution of sorts in this world yet the Karagond empire is deliberately backward and isolationist in some respects I’ve always tended to visualise the fashion of the nobles and wealthier characters as more 16th to 17th century than ancient Greece.

[Havenstone]

@WulfyK: Thanks for all this terrific feedback, and please do keep it coming!

Is seeing other people partially undressed or even fully naked considered sinful/disturbing?
In most contexts (i.e. where the observer hasn’t made an obviously voyeuristic effort), it’s considered shameful for the partly naked person; it suggests that they’re immodest and prone to Xaotic behavior. However, like most shame codes, one of its (mostly unconscious) purposes is to justify the degradation of the lower classes; there’s an unspoken expectation that the helots won’t be able to keep it. So nobles seeing helots working half-clad are more likely to feel smug and mildly titillated than disturbed: “Of course they aren’t properly modest, the dirty little animals.”

Do the helots themselves share the upper classes’ attitudes towards modesty?
As the game suggests when you’re defining your level of physical intimacy with Breden, helots don’t entirely share the upper castes’ values. Few are entirely free of those attitudes… but they adapt them to the reality of a life of hard labor (as of course lower working-class people did in the Victorian era you mention) and don’t judge each other for e.g. stripping down when it’s clearly a necessity for work. Only a very neurotic helot would feel the shame of exposed skin with an intensity that corresponds to the contempt the aristos feel for them.

If the MC is helot but stops singing, the noble version of the massacre is presented.
That’s not actually the “noble version” – that’s the “Gellard is more focused on Carles than on you” version. He normally assumes you’re a yeoman child, because what helot would be found inside a wineroom? It takes a second look for him to realize otherwise. That happens if you sing.

And the version where you inadvertently save Carles stops at what I think is the important moment–though you’re right that that leaves out the blurb about Gellard. But the story’s not really about him.

Do gold drachems also exist or is it just a mistake?
Total mistake. Will fix at next update!

If the MC is a helot and can read, it’s said that s/he was taught by an unnamed friendly deacon. Wouldn’t it be better to make Ecclesiast Olynna the teacher?
Oh, absolutely–great suggestion, thanks!

What happened to the third Laconnian pretender after the defeat? Was he killed in battle or captured and executed?
I don’t think that’s known to the protagonist at this point in the story.

When choosing the weaknesses, how about a choice “Being unlucky”?
I think I’ll stick with a zero stat as the weakness, for simplicity.

If the MC is a female noble and tells Breden that she suspects him/her, Breden calls her a dandy, though the proper female form is dandyzette.
And you’ve taught me a new word! I’m comfortable using dandy for either sex, though, given the obscurity of the declension.

Also, there should be a question if the MC is honest about the trust or suspicion after s/he tells it Breden.
There is – the question just comes several times in the next chapter, rather than the end of Ch 1. Your explicit response to Breden is really about defining your relationship with her/him, more than your actual level of trust.

It is said that the MC has around three hundred followers when leaving Rim Square, but the actual stat is significantly lower.
I just noticed that inconsistency yesterday myself. I’m rechecking my notes, but there should be 292 helots in the Rim Square estates, counting kids down to infancy. 40% are below the age of 14. I’ll make sure the numbers add up in the next update.

How about making the number of followers slightly dependent on the CHA stat?
It is already, though not in the sense I think you’re suggesting. Because of the circumstances in which your revolt begins, no helot is going to stay behind, however charmless you are; and similarly, the non-helots are going to be too scared/appalled to join you (a 2 CHA can do a lot, but has limits).

How many people (helots, nobles, yeomen/merchants and alastors) do live there anyway?
The helots significantly outnumber everyone else. I’ll give a better answer when I’ve double checked my population numbers.

And @idnlun, I picture the clothes similarly.

[WulfyK]

1&2. I hope you’ll make a scene where I can confornt a devote aristo MC with the helot’s attitudes, shoving the value dissonance between the classes

3. The sentence “perhaps he’d found out that you were the aristarchs’ close cousin” does still appear in this version, you should correct this.

So Carles escapes and survivves if the MC is a helot and doesn’t stop singing :-/ And Iarla Wester?

7. But aren’t you going to include an option to buy weaknessless for $0.99 anyway?

And what do other players think about my proposal? I hope some of you will support it and we can convince @Havenstone together.

8. All definitions of Dandy that I found define it as male, that’s why.

9. But if the MC says that s/he doesn’t trust Breden, the option to make him/her XO because the MC trusts her/him isn’t avalable. But what if the MC lied to Breden in order to make the real traitor feel safe?