This was my problem as well. You basically have no options to be silently against it, obviously Tahlia would know of your intents to do things, but Tahlia as a character is an entire separate issue that I could talk about for ages. Writing a character who can read your mind completely and entirely, who abuses their seemingly infinite power with them only being bound to Arcadia? Them being a genocidal maniac? There is no reasonable way to work around that massive block I feel is coming. I feel it’s going to end in a massive MacGuffin or something. It’s not like you can convince or talk to anyone around you other than Tahlia to convince them, no they all perfectly believe she is doing the best for Arcadia or whatever.
I feel a lot of this could have been solved were Tahlia capable of manipulation of the mind and not a telepath with perfect mind reading capabilities. But alas, that is not what I remember. She is capable of vast physical pain upon someone, but not of manipulating their mind more subtly, or maybe she is and she just decided not to with us yet.
Also, talking about the snarky dialogue, god it felt so weird that my MC would either be totally for it, or be a complete asshole. Like, my MC would have been stewing silently most of the time, scheming and perhaps trying to send letters to their allies but not outwardly doing anything. Trying to keep a low profile, they would also try subtly warning people of threats if they were informed of any of Tahlia’s plans.
All of this is to say also I just don’t understand why Tahlia, a blood thirsty tyrant, would want to keep around an MC who is loyal to Panam to begin with. Just kill them, right? My MC would have been a massive liability lmao. Sure, it was cost intensive to revive the MC, but my MC 1. Didn’t want them to do that and 2. Resented Tahlia for acting as if she did them any favours by reviving them against their wishes. My ending conclusion is my MC should have just never been revived because Tahlia should have known that they were strictly loyal to Panam. Idk why it is beyond her to have them killed anyway once she learns they are a liability.
I mean, obviously Eli is going to take MC’s side… but what does she care of them anyway? I view her as a complete sociopath IG, no capacity for guilt.
I think Tahlia comes off too evil too quickly if you disagree with her. Being a mind reader, she would know that when you ask “Do you have to kill the royal family?” as a Parami loyalist MC her answer should be “No, there’s space for your friends on our team”. Like, as a lie, that does so much more to get a Param sympathising MC on side than “hell yeah dude, we’re going to kill all your old pals”.
She doesn’t have to mean it, and I wouldn’t expect her to. Lying to the MC just about how radical her Param plans are and sending them on specifically curated missions to make her goals seem as just and noble as possible seems like a much smarter place to start than “we’re going to kill your friends, plus I’m gonna collar you if you try and tell anybody and if you don’t want a job I have ways of making you work”.
Like, bits of that are there. Like MC’s first mission being to rescue Eli, that seems an obvious plan to convince MC that Tahlia’s side is the good guys, but the problem is that it comes after like 2-3 threats against MC personally and a promise to murder their old friends. Keeping the escape scene as it is I think would work really well with this change, Tahlia seeing that her manipulations aren’t quite doing it, showing her true colours and taking a more direct hand in things.
But as it is, I don’t think an MC that disagrees with Tahlia is given enough reason to trust her at all, so there’s not really a turn there, she’s just the evil dictator lady from the word go. It honestly makes Y, F and Eli look like either idiots for not seeing this or horrible for thinking it’s a good idea to install her as the ruler of most of the continent.
listen. understanding that tahlia is nobody’s savior and has basically impressed mc into servitude. you guys sometimes get madder at her for reviving you than leon for killing you
As someone who’s MC supports Arcadia+Tahlia, I agree with you. There is simply not enough choices/interaction that would let you oppose Arcadia in any way. As @An_Eyewitness suggested, even doing something in vain would be a lot better than what we have in the current demo (both publuc and patreon). There is a moment where you can choose to hang out with one character during your first day in Arcadia, and author said that he plans to expend it, but it’s been there for so long in a very barren state that I’m starting to feel it will be like that in the release as well.
If author isn’t planning to expand a more rebellious Mage, the only way to deal with it is headcanon or try to explain it with “Actually, Tahlia is a subtle telepath who’s been mind-controlling you from the start” but that will suck for everyone I think.
I guess it would be hard to explain something like that, since the story requires you to be on all those important missions, and it would be weird for Tahlia to trust you if you’re trying to oppose/sabotage her plans whenever it’s possible, but I feel like some sort of branching would work. Like, instead of a big choice of “I am staying with Arcadia”/“I am leaving to Param” (which I feel Book 2 will end like) it would instead build up with small choices here and there, slowly building your loyalty/rebellious so that every reader would feel more or less happy with how their character’s actions.
I don’t know how Book 2 will look at the end of the day, I am just hoping author himself will be happy with his sequel.
I think it’s fine that we have to travel with the Arcadians. I DO think the game needs to be branchier but having two completely different stories is a tad unreasonable a request. That being said, I do feel there needs to be a lot more options and branches for what you do with the Arcadians, how much you cooperate etc. I get that’s probably meant to come later, but we should be able to plant the seeds of our motives earlier. How much we want to cooperate, what bits we disagree with, etc.
I’m honestly wondering if that may be part of the main point.
Warning... most of this is speculation on my part:
In b1, the mage was basically a pawn for Leon and his group. Sure, you could choose why you did what you did, be noble or ignoble, and either aim for saving the most people or saving your own skin. In the end, it didn’t really matter, because you’re murdered no matter what your choices.
In b2, once again, the mage is in a situation not of their own choosing. For some, it may grate from the beginning, because it feels like no choice. For others, it may just leave them feeling numb from the events of b1, being dragged along for the ride. For others, they may be more focused on the past and getting revenge (or getting back to Param). The MC is kind of stuck because of Thalia, but it’s much the same–does the pawn play ball and do noble things and try to save people? Or does the pawn not give a crap about the people they try to help and just worry about their own skin? The pawn has been captured and forced to change sides…
It’s actually interesting because this is a war with two sides: Param vs Arcadia. You see Param’s side in the first book, and can see Arcadia’s side in b2 (so far) if you choose to do so (or you can just be like “screw these guys, I hate them and love Param 4evah but can’t leave!”).
But the more interesting part is that, despite it seeming to be a two-sided war, it’s the ones moving the pieces around that might be the target(s) that needs to be taken down. You know, the ones that can order kings to murder their friend/lovers? And the woman mind-controlling people to do her bidding? Doesn’t really matter which side you’re on when you’re just a pawn and the information you receive is filtered by those running the show.
I think we’re meant to be forced into seeing both sides. Making judgments based on the knowledge we get from both sides, and being able to see both perspectives. Who is the hero and who is the villain changes a whole lot based on your position on the board and what you know.
It also depends a great deal on your perspective–as seen by the circular arguments here as to whether Leon is a great person, an idiot, or an evil piece of shit. The mage is getting a view from both sides, something most never experience. It would make sense that, in b3, the mage’s puppet strings are broken and how they judge the situation, the players, etc. helps shapes events. And, if I remember correctly, someone said there was some other threat that they have to worry about, which may pop its head up in b3.
I think it is clear that the story structure of the book is that you are supposed to spend the first book getting to know one side, the second getting to know the other, and choose in the third. The problem with this, of course, is that a lot of players and MCs aren’t interested in killing their friends from the first book, so the author put in rebellious options for those characters, but still wanted them to see the same plotline, so you still do all the same stuff, just involuntarily and with less chance to bond with the Arcadians, which makes book 2 a painful experience for those players, who feel like they can’t properly RP their MC.
I almost wonder if it would have made more sense for the MC to have amnesia or something similar, so that they would have no reason not to be friendly with the Arcadians, then get their memories back at the end of book 2, and face the dilemma of which group of friends to side with. That might still be frustratingly linear for some players, (I don’t think there is a way around that with this story structure) but would eliminate the role playing issues people are having, and enhance the tragic choice thing the author seems to be aiming for.
I don’t think I’d like the amnesia version. Having the MC deal with the trauma of being murdered by the people they constantly risked their life to help (and the trauma of the man your MC is in love with murdering them) is part of what helps set things up for my MC in b2.
It has changed her, in some crucial ways, and makes it easier for her to get closer to the Arcadians (Thalia excluded). It also feeds her dislike of Param, at the moment, since she’s seen first hand how murderous they can be. If she had amnesia, she wouldn’t have that knowledge of how she’s been treated to help shape her views even more.
I don’t know. I’m not sure there’s any easy answer. It might have made the roleplaying part easier if, for those who hate Arcadia and want to return to Param no matter what, Thalia twisted their mind to make them more agreeable. And, perhaps, it would be like some part of them knows they’ve been twisted. That way their hatred of everyone who is Arcadian would make some sense.
i really wish we got to see a little more of what Tahlia & co. were battling against wrt the oppression of arcadians in the wider world.
we’re told that arcadians were still legally enslaved in param like a generation ago, which goes a long way toward explaining tahlia’s take-no-prisoners attitude toward the royals, but you have to break into the codexes to actually get this information. otherwise, we never actually see a parami character mistreating an arcadian because they were arcadian. even though we’re told param still has these issues and we spend a lot of time with their upper echelon, we sorta have to just assume it happens.
we got a little of it in book 1 with merdel village but it’s not like that was a clear-cut case of bigotry. it almost feels like the narrative sets you up to be more frustrated with barza the villager than the baron by the end. F&Y’s backstories would also work to help us understand the arcadian perspective, but we get them so late into book 2 that you’ve probably already made up your mind about arcadia by then.
i think that creates a bit of a sympathy gap between the parami and arcadians: you meet the parami as a plucky, easy-to-love band of adventurers, but you meet the arcadians as pretty cutthroat revolutionaries, and you’re so far removed from their cause that the story doesn’t give you a ton of reasons to be on their side.
i get that impression too; i just think it comes a little too late to make a convincing argument to a big chunk of the player base, you know? even if you aren’t inclined to forgive leon or ante and want them dead, you probably don’t want, like, saine dead, and pretty deep into book 2, that doesn’t look like that’s something arcadia is willing to budge on. i would like to at least understand why they feel that way.
True, though honestly, I wish people would give the complaining about them a rest. We’ve already seen a great deal of character depth for everyone but Thalia, and she’s the one most gung-ho and nationalistic. And as much as I want more choices for the first impression, I think it’s a bit early to start making changes since these people barely know us. There’s no reason to believe the plans are set in stone. Or that none of these people will ever change their views on the matter.
Personally, I just hope there’s a way to kill Leone without killing or permanently alienating Saine and Illya. Hate when your options are “give up your revenge” or “do horrible things and burn your bridges”. It’s played out.
i completely agree!! and i really hope i didn’t come across as someone completely dismissing the arcadians as characters out of hand (edit: i don’t necessarily even think we should have to change their minds for it to feel good siding with them. their methods just feel at odds with how the story presents the plight of the arcadians, which is never presented to mc as being very life-or-death); i think you miss out on a lot if you never have a playthrough siding with them because they have some really cool characters with interesting motivations. even if they’re less immediately sympathetic to some players than some of the parami faction, i think a lot of them have more depth. i just wish the story gave us just a little more of an in-character excuse to get to know them.
i almost wish that everyone had known mc was arcadian from the start so that we could get a good idea of how arcadians in param are really treated and potentially had a really good personal reason to roll w team arcanist, but it’s not like i’d really want to change much about book 1
Doesn’t matter as long as Thalia is the all powerful god-Empress in Arcadia no other voice but hers really matters. Yu seems to represent a somewhat more moderate view, but other than not being essentially enslaved, they have barely any more power, magical, legal or social in Arcadia to oppose the holy dictates of the infallible god-empress. So it does a potentially subversive mc little good to try and build Arcadian relations since Thalia is the only game in town who has any power whatsoever and none of the others will ever defy her.
It’s not like the mc is a stranger to that sort of treatment anyway thanks to Thaubal and sister that sort of treatment was most of their life.
As for Arcadia, yes, the historical injustice seems to have been great, although the Ancient Arcadian empire may not have been all that good to their neighbours not to mention that their elites got terminally stupid with the whole refusing to share knowledge with their kids thing. The point is that from Thaubal on all things Arcadia have always meant bad news to the mc personally as basically their entire childhood was ripped away due to somebody crazy obsessed with Arcadian magic using them as a guinea pig and unwilling receptacle of parasites and what is worse…Arcadia/Thalia knew all along.
Even a more genuinely sympathetic Arcadian rebel leader who did not learn about Thaubal in time to do anything meaningful in terms of intervention would have had their work cut out for them to sway mc the way I see it, as mc lost basically everything including their presumably quite substantial “birthright” as a noble and their family/mother to Arcadia already. Instead Thalia gleefully endorses basically everything Thaubal did. And to make an alliance with sister defensible and pragmatic for a better, more sympathetic Arcadian leader I agree that it would have been better if mc had seen or experienced more of the discrimination and outright oppression of ordinary Arcadians, not their super powerful descendants of the mage elite (who really are genuinely extremely dangerous). That would have at least given that alliance a possible, reasonable justification in the grand scheme of things, even if what sister did to the mc would still have been horrible, but at least I assume a more sympathetic leader would not have basically gloated about the whole thing like Thalia did, but could possibly have given a justification more like this when confronted by mc:
That at least could have made their actions way more relatable than Thalia is at present.
But maybe that is why Thalia doesn’t even bother and outright enslaves mc, eh?
Likely too little too late, as the only teased route where the mc is not a total puppet of one side or the other that was teased is the insanity path.
I hope for the opposite, honestly, wreaking bloody revenge on Leon should burn your bridges with Saine and Ilya. It just doesn’t make sense to me that Saine would go back to being your friend after you murdered his brother, even as strained as their relationship is.
Even more so since I heard that the patron demo shows that their relationship isn’t as strained as most people here seems to think. It would really be out of character for Saine to be ok with you killing his brother.
done well, i think either of these could end up being really interesting! saying what you would do in a particular situation is a little trite, but if i were saine or ilya, i might hate it, but i don’t think i could really blame mc for wanting leon’s head. after all, don’t they deserve some kind of justice?
alternatively, mc decides that their cause/their vengeance is worth burning(lol) those friendship knowing that they may be called on to kill saine too one day. that’s the price you have to pay for your justice, which has a pretty fun parallel to how they felt about leon killing mc. very spicy imho!
saine def doesn’t really fully hate his brother but there’s also still a lot of time left in the story for ppl’s allegiances to shift. it could be really cool if characters don’t necessarily end up on the obvious party lines depending on the actions that each faction takes.
Agreed. And it seems that Saine may have no problem with murdering the MC again, which says all I need to know about his “friendship” with the MC.
That said, I have no problem with my MC killing Saine if he gets in the way of her killing Leon. Or if he just tries to outright murder her because she’s with the Arcadians, which seems a distinct possibility.
Just let me take no sides and choose some alternative path for our Mage. That’s all I want form the author…
