Writing good characters with marginalized identities

[P_Tigras]

@Lycoris

But how can you be non binary and not transgender?

On one hand, there’s the mismatch between your assigned sex at birth and your gender identity; on the other one, non binary are genders like agender/neutrois/genderfluid/genderflux/etc.

Since humans have a designed sex at birth, the binary ones (or intersex in some cases), being non binary would mean that there’s a mismatch: thus meaning that they are also transgender. I know that in Spain (I’m Spanish too, @poison_mara! ) we usually think of the binary ones, mtf or ftm (the transgender without being non binary bit), but the question is how is it possible to be non binary and not transgender?

Here is one example. It’s possible to not identify with either gender but be comfortable in your physical body without feeling any dysphoria. If you had a male body you’d be comfortable being male to the world, while if you had a female body instead you’d be comfortable being female. Your physical form just isn’t a big deal to you. You would be non binary and agendered, but not trans.

EDIT: Both agender and transgender can at times be used as umbrella terms. Transgender in particular is often used as an umbrella term that includes agender. So ymmv on this depending on the definition(s) a non binary person personally prefers.

[River]

I think that’s something that doesn’t get talked about a lot. A lot of (cis) authors assume that body dysphoria and self-loathing is part of the process of being trans.

[Adam_VanCleave_Perro]

My own identity is kind of a mess but leaning in a somewhat girly direction.

One of my own family members accused me of lying and they weren’t all that clear what they thought I was lying about but they moved out to the country afterwards and seemed even worse when they visited to take more of “their” stuff.
It was around the time gender identity started hitting the news but I’m not entirely sure if that was it.

Someone who sees “waaaagh” banners as the pinnacle of civilization is probably a waste of time to try to debate with about anything.

[LanaRose]

Yes. A general (not all encompassing, but close) rule is that if someone trans says they are a trans woman, then they prefer female pronouns. For trans men, male pronouns.

[RedRoses]

@Lycoris

I’ve seen people (mostly in their blogs) refering to themselves as mft or ftm: I will refrain from using those terms since I can see why they may be offensive or inappropiate, but what’s offensive for some is “meh” for others.

For that post, I had decided to just group them all together since they’re things that a lot of trans people do not like. I thought for the purpose of this thread and writing it may be smart to recommend the terms that cause the least amount of discomfort from my experiences in the trans blogging community on Tumblr.

@Lycoris

Here again, some may disagree: I, for example, don’t mind any pronoun in particular: I’m mostly used to “you” in the forums and such, but she/he/they are fine for me. All of them are confusing to use (for me), so even if they are valid (to me), I mostly go by “they” or “he” for simplicity’s sake. Though I guess I will have to change that because I meet a jerk who thought that since it was fine to use female pronouns, it was green light for him to see me as a girl and make me the object of his “affections” (and guess what: it was a heterocis white male, and he made me see for the first time why they were disliked in general).

While there are nonbinary people who do not care about the specific pronoun they use, many do. I’m glad it doesn’t bother you too much (though I’m sorry about the jerk, they are always so frustrating. And why my first instinct around cishet white men is suspicion.), but it does make up an important part of a lot of our identities.

@Lycoris

Here I fear I’m going to put my hand on the fire (how do you say it in English? Make a risk?) But I think they say it because they have seen pages like this? Here and here

While I admit that I don’t have a full understanding of those gender identities, ultimately I will defend them because those gender identities tend to be used by younger people, and ultimately it is their first step in experimenting with identifying outside of a set binary. It’s still frustrating, though, because for others in the community, like people who identify as genderfluid or agender or bigender, it can get incredibly condescending and dismissive of the way we identify, like we only feel the way we do because we want to be different. And that can really hurt.

@Lycoris

Are you talking about gender dysphoria (where there’s the discussion that someone doesn’t need to feel dysphoria to be transgender) or the cases where they only need social and/or legal transition and don’t feel like they need hormone therapy or surgery? Because the former is a big can of worms.

I am talking about body dysphoria, yeah. There are trans people out there who don’t feel like they need hormones to feel comfortable with their body, and they’re are trans people out there who do. They’re all equally trans, they just have different ways of looking at it I think. So I don’t think it’s right to say that all trans people must feel like they have the wrong body.

@Lycoris

Also, I once read a very interesting discussion saying that “gender is a social construct” is the most harmful thing ever said for transgender people because it discredited them, claiming that if gender was really a demon created by society, then transgender individuals wouldn’t exist: that their dysphoria wouldn’t be real, because after all, the mismatch between their assigned sex and gender identity wouldn’t be real. I have to find it because it’s very intriguing.

@LanaRose

I’m taking hormones, and one day I intend to fully transition and never be referred to as male again. That’s who I am. Saying ‘gender is a social construct’ is blatantly incorrect. It’s mental, just like sex is physical and gender roles are social.

I’m sorry for the misunderstanding here. I meant more in the sense that I feel like saying that being born in the wrong body indicates to me that men and women are “right” if they have the right genitalia, and wrong otherwise, like the idea that correct men have penises and correct women have vaginas itself is a social construct, not the idea of identification specifically. I did not phrase it correctly.

[C_Micah]

Since this seems to be getting a little off topic and heading into the morass of identity, let me pose a potentially controversial writing question:

Why should I include any characters of marginalized identities in my story in the first place?

What kind of depth can such an identity add to a character without making them just another token minority insert?

[Adam_VanCleave_Perro]

Not quite directed at you but why should we include alpha male “hero’s” that singlehandedly save the day through violence over and over and over?

Inclusive or not: Forcing a story is wrong.

It would still be great to get some actual representation though.

[Eiwynn]

@C_Micah

Why should I include any characters of marginalized identities in my story in the first place?

What kind of depth can such an identity add to a character without making them just another token minority insert?

This is my opinion only:

1: Marginalized characters can open an entirely new experience for the reader/gamer to experience. It also allows the author to differentiate themselves from prior works and competing works in the same genre.

2: The depth added depends ultimately on the author writing the character but the amount added will in generally be the same as any other developed character the author writes about.

[River]

Because that’s what makes your story real.

Because fat people, POC, mentally ill people, physically disabled people exist so why shouldn’t they exist in a fantasy/sci fi story?

Because nothing is original, but the twist and perspective you give it is what breathes new life into a new idea

Because even if 1% of the population of the USA is asexual, that’s still 3190000 people in the United States alone

Because those “tokens” are still a part of a person’s identity (like me being nonbinary in the Bible Belt, or my partner being hispanic AND trans is a part of who they are)

Because seeing the same thing being done over and over again is boring

Because you’re a good enough writer that you could tackle this challenge.

[blackrising]

@C_Micah

Why should I include any characters of marginalized identities in my story in the first place?

I think this would be the same as saying ‘okay, I COULD include characters that aren’t blonde, 1,65cm tall, brown-eyed and male, but why SHOULD I?’ - you can resolve to only write stories about blonde, 165cm tall, brown-eyed dudes, of course, but it’ll be boring as hell. Humanity is diverse in all aspects and ignoring that diversity seems like it doesn’t make much sense.
And if that’s not enough, most people are, I hope, socially aware enough to realize that positive representation of minorities is a good thing.

[BabbleYaggle]

@Lycoris

Also, I once read a very interesting discussion saying that “gender is a social construct” is the most harmful thing ever said for transgender people because it discredited them

@LanaRose

Saying ‘gender is a social construct’ is blatantly incorrect. It’s mental, just like sex is physical and gender roles are social.

I am a bit amused by how shocked I was to read these things.

It used to be you could say things like that all the time. Everybody knew that gender was not a social construct. Gender roles, sure, but not gender itself. (And even if gender were socially constructed, you crazy radical feminists, biological sex certainly is not. Because science. So there.)

Then the nineties happened, and guess what? Of course gender is a social construct. And sex, and bodies, and the autonomous individual. All constituted by discourse, obviously. You didn’t know? What have you been reading, Geertz? That’s so sad! Here, have my old copy of Discipline and Punish. No need to thank me. Run along now.

By the time I left school, I had internalized the notion that every time someone says gender is not a social construct, Judith Butler sheds a single beautiful tear.

So either gender theory has undergone a massive upheaval in the last few years, or there are people somewhere on the Internet (and in academia too, no doubt) who have misused an abstract academic concept. I can’t say which one of those possibilities is more likely. I’m no expert.

But I will say this: If anyone tells you that gender is socially constructed, please please don’t take that as a slight against trans people. And if someone tries to tell you that a person’s gender—any person’s gender—is somehow undermined by the fact that gender is constructed, please inform them that this is like saying planes can’t fly because planes are constructed. Then swat them on the nose with a rolled up magazine and say “No.”

You can’t fly a plane that hasn’t been constructed. You can’t talk about (or think about, or identify as) a gender that hasn’t been constructed. Social construction does not make something less real. Social construction is how things become real to us. That’s the theory anyway, in simple terms.

Disagree with it if you like. Point out its flaws. Plenty of people do. But don’t dismiss it because some people have messed it up.

But like I said, I’m no expert. Any experts here, please do not feel free to correct me. It’s almost May, and those term papers aren’t going to grade themselves.

[Bootsykk]

Because it isn’t done. Art reflects society, and by making marginalized characters in fiction, they become real.

And we all know that fictional characters are fiercely, FIERCELY real for people. While this might not be the best example, think back to how many people were shocked to discover that Rue (Hunger Games) was black, or that Hermione had never been explicitly mentioned in Harry Potter to have a certain skin and hair color. It turned some peoples worlds absolutely BONKERS upside-down for a while, where there were articles written about it, twitter storms, the whole nine yards.

Whats the big deal? They’re fictional characters, you might ask. And that’s precisely why. People fall in love with, connect with, and humanize characters in their minds. There is a struggle to do that with real people.

So you’re giving people who are real a voice and a face that others can empathize with. You’re opening your readers view of the world, even if your story and it’s themes have absolutely nothing to do with these people’s identities in the end. To bring up someone else’s example, The Last Of Us and it’s DLC were not changed by Ellie being on the LGB spectrum; it was a story about family, love, and survival.

It adds depth just because it’s not usually done, and while we’re not there, I don’t think it should be looked at as “adding depth”; people with marginalized identities are just people. But to write them successfully, it’s the same way you’d write, say, the “token black character”. They become a token black character when their personality is composed of black stereotypes and little else. Even in stories specifically touching on race your character should first and foremost be believable and, even if not relatable, human.

[Adam_VanCleave_Perro]

I didn’t really like Harry Potter but they had the sense not to spotlight character traits like you said.

I dropped the Harry Potter series because the villain was always some form of “magic Hitler” and the movie series kind of ruined it for me too (I had a better image of Mr. Potter in my head before I saw the actor. Okay actually that’s subjective).

[Savriss]

A lot of activity happened in what was overnight for me! I’ve spent a little while going over everything that has been said and there has been food for thought.

Since there’s been talk about terms for people, I’m going to add that the term ‘cis’ is both annoying and offensive to me. It is annoying because it is a term coined by a very small group of people to box a huge variety of others. It may well have had input from people who are and remain single gendered but all involved are from a tiny subset of other intersectionalities. The term as said sounds like ‘sies’ which translates from Afrikaans as ‘Expressing disgust, disappointment, or annoyance’, being told I am cis is unpleasant. Further, the term continues to separate ‘us’ and ‘them’.

The above also helps to elaborate on my original point; identity is a collection of many, many intersectionalities. Being transgendered (or female, of minority colour, physically challenged, immigrant, differing wealth, anything) in the USA is far, far different to in South Africa, Namibia and even still pretty different to the UK. Getting input from a person adjacent to the author just because they are of appropriate persuasion is at best unhelpful and at worst becomes gatekeeping. In this, I stand by my belief that having to get input from every person with experience that is relevant is impossible.

To me, it is vitally important that an author be able to seek input where wanted and continue unhassled where not. Art is both public service and personal catharsis; if an artist is exploring their own sexuality, doubts, fears and hopes in their chosen medium, I believe they should be forgiven if they must rely on archetypes and make mistakes about the social mores of groups along the way.

[RedRoses]

I’m sorry that cis has an offensive homophone (it’s pronounced like sis, if that helps. I’m not sure how to say sies), but the word cis itself is not offensive. It just means that you identify the way your gender was assigned to you, same as trans means you don’t.

I don’t think it’s gatekeeping, though. A lot of people don’t. It’s basic research. Make sure you know what you’re writing about before you write about it, you know? And we’re not asking people to speak to every single person in a minority group, we’re asking people to speak to at least one. As part of their plot research.

If an art is made for the sole use of public consumption, then critics are allowed to express wats to improve that art. If we are allowed to critique a work based on its plot, form, appearance, etc, we should be able to critique its accuracy and representation.

[Savriss]

It’s pronounced either like the first part of ‘scissors’ or a hasty ‘cease’. ‘Sissy’ is doubly loaded for much the same reason.

I agree that research enriches just about any work of art. The poetry, narratives and experiences shared about a time period and situation are incredibly rewarding in themselves and can serve to expand the horizons of all involved. I do not believe that the input of a person of appropriate identity but no other commonality whatsoever can qualify as useful data. Research becomes more effective the closer to actual experience that it becomes. Using myself as an example, I would not presume to have my input sought on being single gendered in any culture except South Africa, Namibia and the UK, and not even particularly for the latter as I did not grow up in the country.

I think criticism is almost always valid, but creating new artwork in answer to existing artwork is even better! Expanding content to clear up misconceptions is okay… but altering artwork to satisfy everyone is a fool’s errand.

[Eiwynn]

@Savriss

Getting input from a person adjacent to the author just because they are of appropriate persuasion is at best unhelpful and at worst becomes gatekeeping.

This is severely self-serving. If you don’t want to get feedback about a character from the relevant community, that is your choice. Just be prepared to receive the criticism.

Otherwise, you tailor your alpha/beta participants to your characters. I once wrote a story involving the sport of surfing; there were a lot of different nationalities of surfers in my town for an international competition. I used my contacts in the American surfing world to get me both an Aussie and a South African to give me feedback on my work.

If I write about a character I know nothing about, and only have limited feedback options, I’m still going to get the best I can. Only if the actual effort is made to gather truly relevant feedback should anything be forgiven.

@Savriss

To me, it is vitally important that an author be able to seek input where wanted and continue unhassled where not. Art is both public service and personal catharsis; if an artist is exploring their own sexuality, doubts, fears and hopes in their chosen medium, I believe they should be forgiven if they must rely on archetypes and make mistakes about the social mores of groups along the way.

This is a self-serving attitude to insulate an author from any critics making feedback that disagrees with the author’s view. If the author is lazy enough not to do the work to write a decent story, then nothing should be forgiven.

[FairyGodfeather]

@Zolataya

This is a self-serving attitude to insulate an author from any critics making feedback that disagrees with the author’s view. If the author is lazy enough not to do the work to write a decent story, then nothing should be forgiven.

I think that’s really harsh. I’m of the opinion that we all stumble, we all make mistakes, and sometimes they come with the best of intentions.

Some people are young, some don’t know any better, some are just exploring, learning, or they’re trying. It’s an ongoing process. I think such good intentions should be nurtured.

I think better to forgive, to gently guide people to do better, to show them what they did wrong, than to get angry and yell at them.

As for the word cis, I think it’s important that we respect people’s identities. So if a person asks not to be called cis, then we should do that.

[Eiwynn]

@FairyGodfeather

@Zolataya

This is a self-serving attitude to insulate an author from any critics making feedback that disagrees with the author’s view. If the author is lazy enough not to do the work to write a decent story, then nothing should be forgiven.

I think that’s really harsh. I’m of the opinion that we all stumble, we all make mistakes, and sometimes they come with the best of intentions. [/quote]

I’ve seen so many coders, product designers and authors say those words cited as a shield to insulate themselves from valid and truthful criticism that I’ve learned the brash truth is the only effective counter.

We all do make mistakes and are inexperienced and I did say that if an author makes an effort related to their character development then forgiveness is due - @Savriss 's post 77 is a much different post than their post 79.

The author in post 77 is using blanket generalist statements, the one in post 79 is narrowing the scope to specifics - the post in 77 is one of no effort and using the rational that the “local” community is of the wrong characteristics and therefor no effort should be made in the first place. The author in post 79 is saying, if the available feedback is not aligning with my needs then forgiveness should be given. I agree with that but regardless at least some feedback would be sought and that is the difference in tone between the two posts.

[quote] Some people are young, some don’t know any better, some are just exploring, learning, or they’re trying. It’s an ongoing process. I think such good intentions should be nurtured.

I think better to forgive, to gently guide people to do better, to show them what they did wrong, than to get angry and yell at them.

As for the word cis, I think it’s important that we respect people’s identities. So if a person asks not to be called cis, then we should do that.

If my post came off as angry it wasn’t meant to convey that - I meant the tone to be factually. I agree with everything you say with regards to forgiveness and nurturing, nothing more to say on that.

As to cis - I’m not sure if you meant that directly to me or if you were transitioning that comment to everyone but I also agree here, regardless.

Personally, it is my current view that breaking cis and non-cis males/females into separate sub-sets does more harm than good except for those focused instances where there is nothing but one of the sub-sets involved (such as a conference on trans-women issues).

[FairyGodfeather]

Yeah, the cis comment was meant to everyone. I forgot I hit the reply to your post thing, and since it was Savriss that said it.