My friend emailed me back quicker than I expected and said: “I don’t know, but I am fundamentally against applying labels to living people who can speak for themselves. If a person doesn’t want to be called transgender, then courtesy dictates one doesn’t apply the term to them.” That was about the same as I was thinking, but I was wondering if I was missing something, and really, I didn’t want to explain something I don’t really know much about, I just knew some people did, not why.
I think @malinryden 's answer is excellent and does a lot more to explain.
If it’s alright, I would like to make a pointers list for talking about trans people. I’ve included censored slurs for parts of it.
It is not appropriate to say “transgendered,” “transsexual,” “tr**ny,” or “female to male” or “male to female.” It’s also inappropriate to say “men and trans men” or “women and trans women” since it has an implication that men and women are by default cis, or that trans men and women are lesser than cis men and women. It’s also not appropriate to say ftm or mtf since it has the implication that they are changing their gender, not that they were simply misassigned for their gender. A better alternative to ftm or mtf is afab/amab or dfab/dmab, which stand for assigned female/male at birth or designated female/male at birth.
Not all nonbinary people identify as trans due to their own belief that trans people require a transition, which is not something that all nonbinary people want. Some also think this way due to sometimes identifying in part with their designated gender.
That being said, there are many nonbinary people who do identify as trans due to the belief that being trans means not being cis. I personally am one of those people.
Not all drag queens are cis, but many of them are men who dress as women. Some, however, do identify as nonbinary. You will find many differing opinions from trans women about whether or not this is appropriate.
For nonbinary people, it is incredibly important that you use the pronouns they specify. There’s a lot of controversy about the use of “special snowflake pronouns,” so the best way to show respect would be to use their pronouns properly. For example, my pronouns are ve/vers. If you were to refer to me as she/hers, it would be an erasure of my identity as a genderfluid person, and if you were to refer to me as they/theirs, it would indicate that you will only respect my identity if it is easier for you.
Speaking of “special snowflakes,” that is a very loaded term for nonbinary people. I’m not sure about its relationship with trans men and women; but to be safe, be careful how you use that term.
Trans people do not always feel that they were born in the wrong body. The association between genitalia and gender are purely social constructs, and indicating that trans people must feel that they are born in the wrong body is exclusionary.
I’d like you to expand on this, because after asking several transgendered people about this, they told me specifically to call them thus. So, if 5 people who I interact with often all ask me to refer to them as this, why are you contradicting them?
I’ve seen this claimed on this site before, so please do not feel you are being singled out. On the other hand, I do wish to expand my understanding so I do wish for you to present your reasons for saying this.
If you feel this is better for PM, please pm me too.
Of course I can’t speak for @RedRoses, but this might be a helpful reference:
The word “transgendered”, and why “transgender” without the -ed tacked on is the preferred term, is addressed, with comments as to the reasoning, in this article. It’s listed towards the end, under ‘terms to avoid’.
Edit: I only know this because a dear friend of mine who is a transgender person very helpfully corrected me when I used ‘transgendered’.
So, what do I do? 5 people say “transgendered” is what they are and the article you point to say it is not “preferred” because of “grammar” not because it is a slur or derogatory…
This really relates to the article about using the term “female” we are discussing together. Only for a different marginalized group.
Let me read your article. Thanks for replying, sec.
Edit: I’ve read that article many times from Time magazine. It never helped me. And those that I show the article to still insist I use “transgendered”.
What a dilemma, if I ever write such a character in my stories.
When trying to make a really inclusive story it would probably be best to have more writers instead of basing your material off of recorded accounts. Someone did become a great psychological horror writer from their work as a nurse though.
Try not to spotlight characters for what they are. If it happens accidentally fine but that annoys… a lot of people.
A forced story is never good. Equality groups and major studios especially need to learn this.
The article also points out that you wouldn’t call someone ‘gayed’ or ‘lesbianed’ (nor ‘Chinesed’ or ‘Islamiced’, for that matter).
Please, someone from the relevant communities correct me if I’m off base here, but I had thought it’s because ‘transgender’ is a part of someone’s identity (just as ‘bi’ or ‘Polish’ or ‘atheist’ might be), and it’s not something that happens as if a magic staff had been waved.
And for those five people, you’d use ‘transgendered’ for them specifically, correct? Going with the general practice of referring to people by what they’ve affirmed to be their preferences.
Yes. A couple of them actually got angry that others were challenging their identities… much like the above but in reverse. I do wonder if there is a generational gap involved because they are older then most that visit this site.
Edit: they actually prefer the term transsexual; which your Glaad article explains and since they are binary and 3 are post-op and two working towards that I get their position.
Yeah, I think the article I linked mentioned the age difference in opinion. A lot of young trans people do not like transgendered, and it’s a phrase that has grown a bit older for us.
It’s kinda like how younger people are more likely to identify as pansexual than bisexual, even though there are bisexual people out there who are attracted to all genders, as they use the definition that bisexuality is attraction to same and other genders; or how older gay men tend to be okay with the term homosexual, while younger gay men don’t like it.
As far as writing characters goes . . . it has helped me, in writing characters outside of my own personal experience, to remember that those characters have their own preferences too, and of course can’t speak for any entire group - nor should they be obliged to. As @malinryden put it above, a snowstorm. (I love that analogy!)
The point I think I hear most often in asking my friends who are trans people - or any other aspect of identity that I’ve not at least lived in community with, never mind been a part of myself - is to show my work to various members of that community, ask for feedback, and implement it as best I can. I’ve also read (and I agree) that humility is key here. I think showing a willingness to listen, and to be supportive, goes a long way in making a good, healthy portrayal of a person, who also happens to be part of a marginalised identity group.
@Lglasser has some posts on the subject in her notes for The Sea Eternal, which can be found here, on racial inclusion, and here, on gender inclusion. I particularly appreciated some of her comments at the end of the first post.
Here I agree with @Zolataya: I have seen people (mostly in their blogs) refering to themselves as mft or ftm: I will refrain from using those terms since I can see why they may be offensive or inappropiate, but what’s offensive for some is “meh” for others.
Here again, some may disagree: I, for example, don’t mind any pronoun in particular: I’m mostly used to “you” in the forums and such, but she/he/they are fine for me. All of them are confusing to use (for me), so even if they are valid (to me), I mostly go by “they” or “he” for simplicity’s sake. Though I guess I will have to change that because I meet a jerk who thought that since it was fine to use female pronouns, it was green light for him to see me as a girl and make me the object of his “affections” (and guess what: it was a heterocis white male, and he made me see for the first time why they were disliked in general).
Here I fear I’m going to put my hand on the fire (how do you say it in English? Make a risk?) But I think they say it because they have seen pages like this? Here and here
Are you talking about gender dysphoria (where there’s the discussion that someone doesn’t need to feel dysphoria to be transgender) or the cases where they only need social and/or legal transition and don’t feel like they need hormone therapy or surgery? Because the former is a big can of worms.
Also, I once read a very interesting discussion saying that “gender is a social construct” is the most harmful thing ever said for transgender people because it discredited them, claiming that if gender was really a demon created by society, then transgender individuals wouldn’t exist: that their dysphoria wouldn’t be real, because after all, the mismatch between their assigned sex and gender identity wouldn’t be real. I have to find it because it’s very intriguing.
I’m trans because the sex I was assigned at birth does not match the gender I am in my brain. Gender roles are social constructs, but gender is not.
I’m taking hormones, and one day I intend to fully transition and never be referred to as male again. That’s who I am. Saying ‘gender is a social construct’ is blatantly incorrect. It’s mental, just like sex is physical and gender roles are social.
Personally, I think this is the reason Mad Max: Fury Road was so well received. Because it had enough women in it, who could be various ages, body types, and have different personalities. It made the world more real.
Using your example of having one transgender character in a piece, it needs to be portrayed well and that becomes such a huge pressure that it makes it easy to fumble up (like if they’re in a horror genre, you just know they’re probably going to be killed off).
If you have many characters, and they have different experiences, it allows for the world to be more fleshed out, you can have someone who is trans and an asshole (looking at you, Carla).
…I’m sorry, I lost my train of thought. I don’t know where I was going with this, sorry…
Yes! Exactly, gender roles are the invention! I couldn’t have said better myself!
Yup. I remember trying to explain to this person (the heterocis white man) that disliking gender roles and having gender dysphoria wasn’t the same, but it was impossible with him: I have never seen someone so obtuse and unwilling to listen (on top of that he ended up getting offended. What the hell).
Then I would consider you a she, If you don’t mind? And I know for friends that the hormone therapy is hard so I wish you a good treatment.
I of course I don’t know how hard a gender dysphoria could be. However I am a girl and I have no problem with it. But I am not the girly girl, and don’t follow the stupid roles that society put to a woman. I am a tom boy, because i don’t like looking pretty or make up and pink. Now it is ok as an adult but I was bullied as teen. So I could imagine situation as many of people here in this forum… Society should look more in advance that how people should be based in some glands and hormones.
It is the whole: until you walk in their shoes thing. He was literally unable to understand you and he feels because he is not able to, that you can not either.
