Writing Diversely vs. Co-opting and Sensitivity Criticism

[anon21485497]

This question has been extremely worth it for me. Thank you to everyone. I don’t have much to add for some of these, but I do appreciate everyone for answering.

@sugarplumfairy

I think the line lies in how much of the story you have written, and how much is contributed by other people who have lived that experience. It’s near impossible, in my opinion, to write about a minority group and completely ignore the ways that they experience oppression because it’s a part of their lived experience and therefore a part of their character.

But the authenticity comes from having lived the experience. If you have not lived that specific experience, my advice is to listen to someone (hopefully, several people) that has.

Excellent points! Thank you for your answer.

@sugarplumfairy

As a biracial woman myself, I often find that media representation of multiracial individuals fails to accurately portray that experience - and usually, writers operate under the assumption that it’s easy to write multiracial characters without research.

Unfortunately true. Usually, in my experiences, because they’re more or less operating under the assumption that we are mixed in skin color/appearance alone and in reality are one or the other–mostly whichever one is the “browner” one because of the one drop, white supremacy system. Society is really obsessed with trying to force people to “just pick one” when it comes to anything. Gender, race, sexuality, languages/dialects, on and on.

@sugarplumfairy

This ended up getting really long sorry

No problem! I enjoyed reading your perspective on the matter. And also, mixed represent!

@TheGhost

If you want to write a story that includes a diverse group, ask yourself this question: “why are these characters diverse?” If the answer is “because I think it’s interesting to have them be that way (for all the various reasons it can be), and/or so I can explore the outlook of a different set of people,” then go for it.

However, if your answer is “if I don’t include diversity, then I’ll feel as if I’m doing a group out there a disservice,” then stop. There are millions of stories out there, with different characters. Don’t force yourself to write something you’re not comfortable writing.

Another great point! I think writers often times put pressure on themselves to do it all and write the perfect piece of representation when that’s not what anyone is asking, really.

@greendaisy

I mean, I feel like to some extent it is kind of touch-and-go still and honestly I have no idea on the respectfully disagree bit, but there’s definitely some pointers I look for.

I’m not going to quote the whole passage but excellent pointers and example. Especially the bit about confirmation bias.

@brushmen

Writing straight villain in that instance is not as helpful as the inverse, because majority representation is already much more varied.

True! Straight villains are less for straight representation in villainy though and not having the AtLA live action movie effect where the villains were entirely Indian (I think, I don’t remember if all of the actors were expressingly from India, but that’s what M. Knight was going for I remember hearing). Not a one were white or even particularly lighter skinned. Even though he’d white-washed the rest of the movie. But yes, you are right, gay heroes are more important than straight villains.

@brushmen

As for not sure between contradictory opinions (I struggle with this too, when I don’t always know even what “my community” agrees on, or that I fully disagree with some in “my community”), I think it is okay to change your mind later. (people change, times change, societal attitude shifts, etc.) So, choose the side you believe in and go with it for that specific work. Later if you think differently, write differently.

@AChubbyBlackCat

Agreed. It’s tough to reconcile opinions that contradict each other and I don’t think there’s an easy answer.

Or at the very least, I don’t have the answer.

That’s exactly what I’m concerned about. There doesn’t seem to be reconciliation. At some point, we just have to choose. But that feels like telling the people who disagree with the choice “I get that you feel uncomfortable with this plot point, but you’re wrong”. And I’m not sure how to equally value all criticism and still get something actually finished, you know?

@ItsAidrian

It is entirely up to you to decide how you act when someone criticises your work.

I’m not sure where responsibility ends and my ultimate decision begins though, honestly. I suppose I only know how to take criticism and defer to others when it comes to issues like this, and not how to act upon it in a discerning manner. Which is a character flaw, I know. But there you have it.

@ItsAidrian

I don’t think that these opinions are directly contradictory, but they are very extreme viewpoints. I think this is less of a concern when you’re writing characters that are well-developed, rather than having a token “chapstick” and “lipstick” lesbian just 'cause.

I think it’s more contradicting in the mental sense for writers stacking more worry onto whether you’re writing them not too masculine, not too feminine, not too personality-less, not too vague, not too “genderless blob” as reviewers so lovingly dub it , etc. If your same character gets called “too feminine” in one breath and “too masculine” in another it feels rather no-win.

@ItsAidrian

I don’t understand the distinction you’re trying to make in the first question. In both cases, you have created a situation where you have to write a realistic depiction of the life of a black character, struggles and all. In both cases, you need to put effort into finding resources and people that will help you make this representation honest, real, and inoffensive to actual black people. If you’re going to write a character who faces real black struggles without any experience or outside help, you’re going to have a bad time.

I agree. I meant more what @witchmark was saying it is interpreted as which is this:

@witchmark

Write your XYZ character as a person first, which means you have to completely disregard aspects of their identity and struggles that objectively shape who they are.

So I was trying to ask should struggle be untouchable period or are you good to go ahead with appropriate research so long as you aren’t writing solely about the struggle in your opinion? You already completely cleared that up though.

The only potential problem I see with the concept of sensitivity readers being pushed so heavily as a must have is how many of them you would need to be able to find to garner the kind of heavy duty, varied opinions that should be strived for by general consensus. And while in an ideal situation, that would be a simple to access process, in reality, it can be incredibly difficult if not entirely impractical the farther removed from the communities you are. Or even worse, the less money/resources you have. You may be lucky enough to find a person or small group (maybe even a large group) willing to give in depth sensitivity reader work for free or for a heavily discounted price (and of course, that should never be a request unless there’s a reasonable relationship/expectation pre-established because time and labor are valuable privileges not owed to anyone). But most of the time, it will be expensive. On top of all the other costs being a writer incurs combined with the minimal pay. And we all know it tends to be minorities most heavily affected by the unequal distribution of wealth in the first place. Specifically in the context of this forum, while some have a fabulous experience with player feedback, others like @poison_mara can tell you that even here which is probably one of the most writer friendly places I know of, it can be impossible getting a whisper of spelling help let alone sensitivity reading. It isn’t always about non-effort. And I feel like it’s kinda locking writing behind a pay/privilege wall even more.

[ItsAidrian]

@anon21485497

It isn’t always about non-effort. And I feel like it’s kinda locking writing behind a pay/privilege wall even more.

I think the reason that multiple people, including myself, have brought up sensitivity readers is that the original question was how to deal with criticism when writing about oppressed groups. It is not that writing is hidden behind some wall that is only accessible with sensitivity readers, it is that the best possible way for you to reduce/avoid criticism of your depiction of an oppressed group is to get a sensitivity reader. As I stated above, it will always benefit you to have this.

So, if you don’t want to find a sensitivity writer, what do you do? First, as much research as possible. Look into harmful stereotypes of the group in question, so you can make sure to avoid those. Look for blogs, stories, or novels written by someone in that group who can give you a realistic understanding of their experience. Ask questions of people that are open to answering - there are blogs and Twitter pages that do exactly this. Put the work into researching, and you will have better results; this goes for any time you’re writing about a subject that you don’t understand.

No matter how carefully you research, it is inevitable that you will stumble into an issue that you aren’t aware of. Cultures are complex, and there’s no way to completely understand without being a part of that culture. Be ready for the fact that people will have problems with your depiction of an identity that isn’t your own, and be prepared to address this criticism. Again, this criticism does not become invalid just because you did research, or you have someone with an opposite opinion. Every individual issue deserves the same level of care as you decide how to handle it in your published work.

@anon21485497

If your same character gets called “too feminine” in one breath and “too masculine” in another it feels rather no-win.

Sorry, I didn’t get the implication that these two statements were meant to be about the same character.

Great example: Philip DeFranco posts a YouTube video covering the presidential debate. Some commenters say it’s clear that Phil is a Trump supporter because he’s way too nice to Trump in this video, so he should just come out and say it instead of pretending to be impartial. An equal number of commenters say it’s obvious that Phil supports Hillary, because he’s defending her way too much, and he should just be honest about that. Both groups have watched the same video, but both have wildly different takeaways.

In this situation, the commentary does not indicate that Phil needs to edit his video so that he doesn’t appear too tolerant of either candidate. Rather, it indicates that Phil has produced a very balanced and nuanced video about the presidential debate, which allows people from either side to find evidence to support their claim.

If you write a character that receives equal amounts of criticism for being both too masculine and too feminine, it’s likely that you’ve just written a complex character who exhibits both masculine and feminine traits. Once again, you can only judge if this is the case when it actually happens. You can react by pulling some of the more extremely masc/femme traits from your character, or you can react by saying “Thanks for your feedback! This character is very complex and I think their gender presentation refects that as well. I hope you continue to enjoy analyzing the character.” It’s impossible to say what will work in every situation, and trying to do so feels a bit like knocking down straw men, rather than real arguments.

I think it’s also important to remember that criticism isn’t a bad word. Receiving criticism doesn’t mean that you’ve done something wrong, or that you’ve made some critical misstep in publishing your work. Criticism is a natural result of making your work publicly available, and will come as a reaction to even the most painstakingly crafted piece of fiction. “Everyone’s a critic,” as I’m sure you’ve heard before, and this means that everyone who interacts with your work is going to form a strong opinion on it. What is most important in every situation we’ve discussed here is how you handle criticism, rather than what type of criticism you receive. It will always have to be a decision that you make when it happens, and you’re the only one capable of deciding what response is best for your work.

[Sargent]

One resource that helped me is the Writing the Other site, which came from Nisi Shawl and Cynthia Ward’s “Writing the Other” book. The book and its exercises are great, and the website offers classes and workshops along with other free resources.

[anon21485497]

@ItsAidrian

I think the reason that multiple people, including myself, have brought up sensitivity readers is that the original question was how to deal with criticism when writing about oppressed groups. It is not that writing is hidden behind some wall that is only accessible with sensitivity readers, it is that the best possible way for you to reduce/avoid criticism of your depiction of an oppressed group is to get a sensitivity reader.

I agree with you all. This conversation was just reminiscent of other similar conversations that ended in similar manners which was “find sensitivity readers” basically. And that’s absolutely suggested for those who can do so. I just feel it is necessary as writers and as readers of others’ work to keep in mind not all authors have as many resources as the next. I have no doubt you do keep this in mind. Simply wanted to bring it up for the sake of a caveat in the thread.

@ItsAidrian

Again, this criticism does not become invalid just because you did research, or you have someone with an opposite opinion. Every individual issue deserves the same level of care as you decide how to handle it in your published work.

I don’t think any criticism is invalid so much as I struggle to know what to do about criticism that I have decided I will not use. Which of course, you cannot answer because no one can predict and respond to all future scenarios except the actual author. But I appreciate the well-thought out reply.

@ItsAidrian

“Everyone’s a critic,” as I’m sure you’ve heard before, and this means that everyone who interacts with your work is going to form a strong opinion on it. What is most important in every situation we’ve discussed here is how you handle criticism, rather than what type of criticism you receive. It will always have to be a decision that you make when it happens, and you’re the only one capable of deciding what response is best for your work.

True, thank you. I have not even agreed with the criticism leveled at an author before and still been extremely turned off to their work because of how poorly they took it.

@Sargent

One resource that helped me is the Writing the Other site , which came from Nisi Shawl and Cynthia Ward’s “Writing the Other” book. The book and its exercises are great, and the website offers classes and workshops along with other free resources.

Thank you for the link! I will look into it, and I’m sure it will be helpful for others who might stumble upon this post.

[Elisa_Marino]

I’ve a question about a potential plot for transexual characters and I would like advice about if it is out of line.

Basically I wanted to add visibility to transexual MC, not just put the option to be transexual. For context, in the game there was a corrupt organization (they would kill for profits and other nasty stuff). And they would coact the MC with veiled and not so subtle threaths. In that context, would it be out of place that they threaten with withdraw hormones? I mean, plot is not realist and I can just cut that and use the same threats cisgender would have.

I would appreciate also ideas/ways to make relevant the choice of a transexual character (beyond explicit sex scenes).

[Autumn19]

Just wanted to point out I think the term transexual is dated now. The proper term would be transgender.
As for wanting to add more visibility, it’s admirable, though I feel that having the option to choose trans when given the option at the start of a book is enough, it just feels a little off I guess if there is a lot of attention being drawn to it. Makes it feel a little abnormal I suppose, when obviously it’s completely normal. The idea you had, I’m not sure how I feel about using something like that, it might be better to use the same threat, using hormones is singling out trans people as the other in that scenario and assuming that hormones would be the most important thing to them.

If I’m understanding your last question correctly (I can’t make any comments on explicit things) for regular choices, maybe keep them the same as you would with cisgender folk. Unless the issue of identity is related to the story. If the in story universe is accepting I mean there might not be a need to have different choices if both are treated equally. A setting with discrimination, would need to handled with care but different choices could be added in that scenario.

This is probably a mess, I’m sure someone with more knowledge on the matter than me could do better, but I hope this helps.

@hotmess.exe
Oh, I thought I was just spouting nonsense. Happy to know that I wasn’t. It’s difficult to put thoughts to words. Especially when it comes to a topic like this. Putting the post back up, sorry about that.

[Elisa_Marino]

To be fair, my first draft, consider trans and cis the same. It is less work, so for me it’s easier. So if that is enough, perfect. (I tend to be lazy)

On the other hand, I don’t mind to put a little extra work so it is not “just cosmetic”. I get the “single out” and that is why I asked.

There is an interesting thread about the different dynamics in gay romance. Little things that you can add that reflect that. But I haven’t found something similar. Just mention to have named Npcs and lack of visibility.

[HarrisPS]

There’s a lot of differing opinion about whether or not to include discrimination in a story and I don’t fall completely on either side. But either way, when writing about a marginalised characters it’s important to consider the ways you’re giving these characters content that’s specific to their marginalisation. If the major way a story gives a trans MC unique content is via a problem that they have to deal with, it’s worth interrogating that. Consider including unique content to trans MCs which give room to express and experience joy and community through their identities, not solely as a difficulty that causes issues that a cis character doesn’t face.

[The_Lady_Luck]

In your specific case, there’s also the fact that not all trans people go on HRT, and unless there’s a choice about the specifics, the game would just be assuming that they do.

[hotmess.exe]

@Autumn19

Just wanted to point out I think the term transexual is dated now. The proper term would be transgender.

yes and yes

@Autumn19

it might be better to use the same threat, using hormones is singling out trans people as the other in that scenario and assuming that hormones would be the most important thing to them.

agreed. additionally, not all trans people even want or seek out hormone treatment in the first place, so a conflict like this is already making a giant assumption about how a trans player lives and what must be important to trans people.

also, more importantly, withholding of hormones is a real current day thing that really happens to real trans people, usually by governments, medical institutions, and prisons so… unless this is somehow an equally dystopic setting for cisgender PCs on such a psychologically/existentially traumatic level, I discourage this as a “potential plot.” especially for someone writing a trans character for the first time. tackling such a thing in a way that isn’t offensive or triggering in the worst of ways would be a major feat–and like i quote below, if identity isn’t important to the story as a whole, i don’t understand what the point of this sort of violence specific to a trans PC would be. it sounds like a rather straight-forward example of co-opting an oppressed group’s struggle for drama.

since it’s just an idea at this point, i’m trying not to rail on it too hard, but i can tell you that as a trans (non-b) person, if this were a major plot point for a trans PC, i would nope so hard i’d want a refund. i’d also have a bad impression of the writer, feeling like trans PCs are being punished in an especially cruel way that is already extremely true to real life. kinda like if a captive male MC was threatened with physical torture by a villain but a captive female MC was threatened with rape instead. like can we just not single out oppressed groups like this pleeeeaseee

@Autumn19

maybe keep them the same as you would with cisgender folk. Unless the issue of identity is related to the story.

i feel like this could be used as a general rule of thumb for ideas like this by cis writers.

[Elisa_Marino]

First I want to apologize for being ignorant and insensitive.

I appreciate the time you have spend wirting your answer and do my best to follow your advice. Thank you.

[Autumn19]

No need to apologise here, this is what the thread is for right? Getting feedback from the community to help with writing.

[Elisa_Marino]

Sure, but still. Apologizing when you are wrong takes little effort. And I know I’ll make lots of mistakes in the process of learning. But I get how it could be tiresome for the people who have to put up with my mistakes.

If it were a role playing game it would be easier, because usually you can ask your players. Here I try to read old threads. But the concept is the same, you write for others too, not just for yourself. XD

[TacitLiar]

Hormone withdrawal would be a good threat, oof. Though I think the threats should also be based with the character’s personality rather than only a trans thing.

(Also, personally I prefer widely prefer the term transexual for myself, not transgender, so I think, for that aspect, it would have to be a character personality thing (since I often see that term being ridiculed/seen as impolite maybe).)

But yeah, mostly a character thing, not a trans only thing, as someone that is trans, my personality isn’t ‘‘trans’’ if that makes sense, though it could certainly be used against me, story wise.

(Also, since I read some more in the thread): Discrimination against me/a trans character doesn’t bother me at all, if it isn’t added as a personal agenda thing, but added for flavour and realism/conflict with a character. The character could be a villain, or an edgy person or just some character with trauma about stuff or no trauma but a family background that works with it, etc. Only if it’s straight up ‘‘fuck you trans people’, you’re faking it, it’s not a real thing’ that I would raise my brow and not wanna buy the game/get a refund. (And those words said by the author, not a character, that is)
Though I see often in this forum that realism isn’t that widely loved, so that’s a huge personal preference xd

[Elisa_Marino]

@TacitLiar

said

You make perfect sense. Optimist is a personality trait, trans isn’t.

As for the difference between transexual and transgender I’m afraid I’m not sure if I understand the diferences.

From an RpG perspective, some of my players like to have prejudiced characters as enemies so they can kick their asses. But they can be that without the threat. Having enemies that you love to hate if you are allowed to get revenge on can be cathartic.

But my story is not realist. There is no point on making anyone uncomfortable. I know somepeople talk about “not compromising your vision”, but for me there is no problem on catering to the players, since the aim is to have fun. The part that I want to keep is the “fantasy soap opera” which I know is not for everyone. But in that, diversity only add more options and more potential “drama” (as in love triangles, jealousy, missunderstandings, etc)

[TacitLiar]

Yeah, I often just see those being a power fantasy vs a bully (which is fine of course), but I would like the see the ‘‘kinda dickhead’’ character that isn’t the ultimate villain in the end thing more. Plus beig able to call the bully out on their shit.

Completely agree about NOT compromising an author’s vision. I think some people do ‘‘fun escapism’’ really well and that’s awesome, I’m all for that, but a lot of people seem to censor themselves with the more realistic/crude stories and that’s kinda sad in my opinon. Why not both approaches?
I like both kinds of stories in different moods, neither should change their plots to not be pointed at or somthing.
But yeah, if that ain’t your focus personally, realism is not an issue then, you should just write what you want, not what you think people want you to write.
Unless you want that dought over your artform, that’s not the worst thing, people gotta eat. jk jk but really xd Just do whatever works best for you.

Yeah, that technically isn’t a big difference between transex and trangender.

One has recently become more a movement though, while the other is always seen purely as a medical transition. But ultimately, it pretty much refers to the same thing, yeah xd
Mainly transexual doesn’t include non binaries in the term and transgender mostly includes it.

Also, nanh trans isn’t a personality indeed xd Though some people make it to be one sometimes (which, to each their own in that case ^^’) But overall, it really isn’t.

[Elisa_Marino]

@TacitLiar

I’m all for that, but a lot of people seem to censor themselves with the more realistic/crude stories and that’s kinda sad in my opinon. Why not both approaches?

I think it is easier in pen and paper, where you can talk with the players to know their boundaries and preferences in advance. Here you don’t know the people, what they like or enjoy and it is more difficult. For a more mature/serious (I prefer this expression to realism because in fantasy, even the based in real world, there is always some strech of imagination), it is important to know who is playing and what are the limits. I mean, games like kult or in nomine satanis, dealt with very gore or disgusting things, yet, sometimes are the supposedly “small” details the ones that touch us more. The closer they hit home. I’ve played games where being excluded from a party by the popular guys hitted worse than having an NPC killed. Because somehow, the death of a NPC is expected while the very real excluding, not.

The point is, I would write “unnecesary drama” and overtly complicated missunderstandings, but I can find other things to make the choice relevant in a not negative way. Or just take the lazy route and treat trans exactly the same as cis except for the option of body parts. If it save “ifs” is always good.

The explanation is clarifying.

The thing is that I don’t see myself as an artist, I think of myself as a player. Just in a different medium than pen and paper or writting in a forum. I’m not trying to convey a profound message, just share some fun. As such I have no qualms on changing things to accomodate people.

As for the calling of the bully, yeah, that is also satisfying. And that would show personality. Having the choice to kill, forget or just humiliate the bully. Same as oofering someone to study versus party the day before an exam. xD

[TacitLiar]

Ah, yeah, you’re more of a ‘‘fun writer’’ then, that’s cool too. Just do what you feel is more fun then, if that’s what you wanna achieve. Just gotta be fun and self consistent then, and you should be good.

Ah, yeah, I think I’ll use mature too now, since realism doesn’t exactly convey what I thought it would xd Mature seems like a better term for that kind of story, thanks xd
Though weird, about being excluded being worse than a dude dying. Maybe that was the intent though? To make you feel shit a bit? But agree about character deaths being VERY predictable and easy to see coming, often.
Never really though about me, personally, being excluded as a negative feeling thing, so that is a good thing to know that it can be a shit time for someone in a game, taking notes for my one xd

Completely agree about small details being everything. I’m a sucker for that, it shows the author truely cares (or put more effort than usual at least). Of course the whole should be in harmony with it, but it really can elevate a game!

Everyone’s got their luggage though, so that makes sense and I guess I should think a bit more on these kinda things when I’ll write.
Feedback is always fun though (when constructive lol) so I’m enjoying our little back and forth ahah
(Also will go look those games, I’m curious now)

But yeah, I think that if you’re not too well verse in trans issues and the ongoing debates, I would probably just steer clear of it and go for ‘‘cis and trans are the same’’ approach, since it is the best overall for not pissing off anyone lol Or just add a ‘‘transmen/transwoman’’ along ‘‘men/woman’’, though that could be seen as lazy maybe. Dunno, but I kinda like having the option even when pointless shrug. If it makes your job harder though, I think ditching it is totally fine.

Good luck about that game though! Cheers

[LMK]

So I asked my mom what she thought about white/nonblack people writing about black/brown people and the issues surrounding us. She’s black, grew up right after desegregation. She’s a more experienced writer than I am, as well.

She made an interesting point–for her, it’s to do with the quality of the writer and empathy. A good writer with a lot of empathy and tons of research can make a convincing viewpoint. Though establishing some ground rules on what should and shouldn’t be done is important, it’s more important (except avoiding stereotypes ofc) that you write well and really get to know your characters on a personal level. Understand the psyche of the character and portray their emotions realistically. Pretty simple.

I think a good ground rule is be hesitant to write about another group’s oppression. A conflicted world makes for better storytelling (not always), but what really makes a person’s stomach knot a little when they see a failure to represent correctly? It’s always a possibility. I can think of a few bad examples from media off the top of my head.

That being said I’ve seen some of the most amazing representations of black and biracial people from white writers and directors.

And I’ve seen some bad representations of black people from black writers and directors. The advice applies to me, also. So even though first-hand experience is great to build off of, I still have to research, research, research, even about my own group of folks!

Go ahead and don’t be afraid to write about someone you’re not. You don’t need to be 100% realistic, just respectful. Always think about the readers part of that group. Research! (I can’t say it enough. Seriously.)

[Elisa_Marino]

Devil is in the details. Maybe it would be possible to turn around. Instead of a thread to withdraw hormones, a one time tech to make it unnecesary. Something good instead of bad.

As for the excluding thing, is because players usually aren’t attached to npcs. They know their characters should, but they themselves aren’t. And it is something they haven’t experience. Not being invited to a party is easier to relate to. And in a way, is something that happens to them. To be fair, I though they would throw their own party. But as in real life, players got obsesed with being like and invited by the rich and “cool” npcs.

Death is games and stories has lost meaning. If you can make a new character sheet, you don’t care about your character dying unless you have spent lots of time with that character. Same with npcs, no background, no meaning. Or Marvel with genosa. If you can easily came back from death, death no longer means the same. And sorry for being off tópica, naybe this is for another discussion.