Writing about gender, power, and privilege

@Ksu, good point – I actually wasn’t ignoring that, but I was being unclear. When I said “play it straight,” by “it” I meant historical fiction written from a single-gender perspective, whether that gender be male or female. Like Vendetta or Farside’s mooted female Soviet spy story.

And I agree with you that readers who want to “play it in reverse” – who want a historically plausible female gangster or male spy story, not just a pronoun swap – would have every reason to be disappointed that the writer didn’t go down that route.

What I can’t see is why readers who want to “play it straight” (male gangster, female spy – or for that matter, male midshipman in CoB) would be annoyed by the existence of a genderflip option. It doesn’t detract from the historical accuracy of the primary plotline, or the depth and personality of the characters as originally written. It doesn’t increase replayability, but nor does it reduce it. All it does is make the game rather more enjoyable to more players than would otherwise have been the case, by making it easier for them to see themselves in the protagonist.

After all, it’s not as if either category of female readers you mentioned would have had their preferences satisfied by a male-only historical game, right?

So while I agree that there’s no best way, I’ll cheerfully encourage any author who’s considering a single-sex historical game to at least graft in a genderflip option at the end – it’s a relatively simple measure which makes it more immersive for quite a lot more people.

@Havenstone

While I enjoyed CoB I didn’t like the genderflip in it. Personally I preferred
CoV which had subtle differences depending on your background and indeed gender. This is the reason I played through the latter multiple times as both genders it can enrich the world and give reason to play as the opposite gender.

@Havenstone
Indeed, I suppose more female player would be satisfied with a gender flip when compared to a pure male protagonist game, provided that the gender flip is nicely done. That’s the reason I said that it can be a compromise solution.

However, a good gender flip is not as easy as it may seem on the surface, especially in a game like Vendetta, when there’s quite a lot of character interactions that probably need to be changed together with the gender of the main character. For example, the interaction with Angel, Rosie, etc.

Also, there’s the degree of gender flipping to consider. Complete gender flip where all males become female and all females become male may solve some problems with character interaction, but is it worth the effort? Will the female player really find it more immersive since it will become an unfamiliar world? Or is partial gender flipping where only the protagonist and a few key characters are changed a better and more immersive solution?

As to why some players who want to “play it straight” is annoyed by gender flip, perhaps adding gender flip undermine the ‘artistic’ value of the game for them? I don’t know. I believe that most people aren’t annoyed by the existence of gender flip, but they are disappointed due to the lack of a “play it reverse” option. If the author made it clear that it is either a choice of gender flip or only-male, I think most are, shall I say, graceful enough to pick the gender flip option for people who may enjoy it.

While I think CoB did it fine, the problem of a gender flip is it just wouldn’t work for some games. I’m thinking specifically Vendetta, where it’d be a lot of work for the author even to do just a basic pronoun flip, and there’d probably need to be some substantial event re-writes as well. And for the player, it could very easily come across as “this wasn’t written for me” when playing, which is a drag. I’m sure we’ve all played games where the cosmetic gender led to some weird dialogue or story events that lead you to think “they didn’t care enough to go back and change this”

Edit: Ksu said it all better

@Nocturnal, sure – I’m not really arguing at people who liked CoV more than CoB, but at people whose posts imply that they would have liked CoB more if it had been a “historically accurate” game, which of course would have meant no choice of gender. Pick one simple choice early on, and you’ve got that game – a fun, immersive Napoleonic naval novel with reasonable historical verisimilitude. The genderflip just means that a lot of other people have the game too, with a couple extra chuckles along the way. (Surely we can all agree that the line about delicate boys fainting at the sight of blood is excellent?)

I admire and enjoy the extra effort that Jason’s put into CoV – not just on gender but language, nationality, and a quarter-bazillion other customizable things which lead me to expect the final CoV game to come out sometime in the 2050s. There’s no doubt that it increases the richness of his story. But I wouldn’t dare to suggest to the average CoG writer, “Why don’t you write like Jason - it’ll increase replayability?” Whereas I do think it’s reasonable to suggest a genderflip, to increase the number of people who’ll find your game immersive.

On consideration, I’ll pre-emptively admit that a genderflip that wants to hide its fingerprints (instead of strutting its stuff like Broadsides) will take a little more than a Find/Replace job. A while back, @P_Tigras mentioned a couple of things that broke immersion for him in the AotC genderflip: the fact that Agustin/a could pick you up effortlessly, and a line about being a woman when you grew up. And fair enough, I say (though I was too busy at the time to concede the point, P_Tigras. Better late than never?). A genderflipped Vendetta really would need an alternative to the mourning beard.

But as someone currently writing a fantasy game with relatively minor differences between sexes (not enough to justify a replay on the basis of gender alone), I don’t feel like it takes a huge amount of work to keep things gender-switchable. I hope it’s not leading to watered-down characters, and I expect it to be more fun to more people. Hope to finally get a draft up here in a month or two, put my money where my mouth is, and we’ll see what folks think… :slight_smile:

Edit: by the time I got this up, my admission was no longer pre-emptive. Fair points on the changes needing to be more than cosmetic, @Ksu and @TDilz.

@Havenstone

Fair enough :slight_smile:

In “Unnatural” I’ve tried to follow the Jason route. Its not as good but @Farside 's attempt to refine the female path has helped immensely. Sadly she has other commitments and can’t continue, but hopefully I can use her earlier suggestions to improve the other episodes too.

I think fighting about gender is stupid. It should be up to the author. And I mean seriously, if you’re willing to inconvenience a great author so that they have to spend months making it so that you can have a male (Or female) Character just because you can’t enjoy it as a female (Or male) Then maybe you shouldn’t be reading the story? I personally will read anything Nocturnal, Vendetta, or any other authors have to write no matter what. Because I love their work enough so that I don’t care about petty things like a game being gender locked.

Rant=Over

@Patch101, no one here is arguing that it shouldn’t be up to the author. But I suggest you shouldn’t take for granted the privilege of having protagonists of your own sex and gender, especially in interactive fiction where “you” are the main character. A lot of people who haven’t had that really appreciate it when they get it.

So (no surprise) I don’t agree that it’s “stupid” to suggest that good authors spend some of their time on making their games more inclusive. I’m sure lots of people will enjoy their work either way. But the benefits of adding gender choice are usually worth the time.

This is one of the main things that CoG explicitly sets out to do:

“A core tenet of the Choice of Games philosophy is to make all our players feel as ‘at home’ as possible. There are enough games out there where the player has no choice but to play a male protagonist. There are enough women who have been turned off roleplaying games as a result. There are, similarly, enough games where the only romantic opportunities are with the opposite sex. Enough other people are perpetuating those stereotypes; we’d like to do better than that.”

After reading this thread I decided to ask my partner what she the thought- will only play a game if she can play as a female and not FORCED to be male, did say she couldn’t care if it was just a gender swap(would just think of the character as a manly buff female) but would prefer a female perspective tho. I’m thinking about a game I’d like to do myself and am finding the gender issue interesting, but as a male would/am finding it hard to put myself and write as a female. And playing such a game as heal(beautiful/fresh game) it obvious to me why male writers do avoid female options, sorry but we just can’t catch the female essence

I think that The Fleet best signifies a game where gender is unimportant. And although I’m not saying all games should be like that, I think it is a pretty good concept. After all, sometimes if you’re not going to write seperate stories for the two genders, there’s no point in writing an extra perspective. Just have it all gender neutral, or stick to historical accuracy. Don’t ruin the game by a crude gender swap.

I agree that The Fleet is a terrific game, which because of its futuristic setting (and because it is much more game than story) can be totally pronoun-free throughout.

I’m curious, though – do you think The Fleet would be “ruined” if it had a gender choice? Would it feel different to you at all? If so, why do you think that is – what would actually be different to the current work?

Keep in mind that in this case, it was probably as much work for the author to write pronoun-free as it would have been to have a simple pronoun-flip. (I know that at beta I caught one “him” that had slipped through. It’s hard to write people talking to/about your main character without using any gendered language).

And when you talk about “historical accuracy” – why do you think it should be binding on fantasy, sci fi, and other fiction in a setting that doesn’t share our history?

I’m not saying it’s stupid if they do it on their own, @Havenstone, I’m just saying that it’s stupid to try and force them to change halfway through the story. If they made it so that you could pick the gender at the beginning when they first made the game, they wouldn’t have to change quite as much. But just having to go through and change all the "He’s to 'She’s would be an irritating thing to have to do. While it wouldn’t be difficult, it would still be kind of annoying.

And no, I don’t enjoy a game with my gender any more than if I use the opposite gender. Then again, I probably play differently from other people. I lose myself completely in the game. I think over every choice as if my character’s life ending is my life ending. I imagine MYSELF as the character. So, when I do that, it doesn’t matter what the characters gender is, because I don’t see the character I see me c:

@Havenstone r.e. The Fleet, if it did have a gender choice it would have to be rewritten to include a lot more gender-related scenes, and probably a few gender-specific things. Adding gender choice to a game such as The Fleet (which, in my opinion, is better of without it) would be a big task with (seemingly) not much reward, as I can’t think of any scenes that would be drastically improved by it, and IMO both sides would have to be slightly different- it takes a lot more than changing a few he’s to she’s (or vice versa income cases) to make a game be truly multi-gender. It involves a lot more than that, or it’s just a few things changed around that ultimately don’t make much of a difference.

D&D Fantasy ™ works very well by just assuming that gender doesn’t matter, and it’s been that way long enough that disbelief is easily suspended by any fan of the genre; GRRM wanted a more gritty and crappy world (for everyone), so he made sure that Brienne’s ability to outfight any man alive came with the downside of being big and ugly by Westeros standards. But a slim supermodel paladin is not out of genre (though it’s sexist in another way, fantasy is generally reasonably egalitarian with the beefcake and the cheesecake, so it balances out). Either way, you don’t see much more of a problem with female warriors than Arl Howe from Dragon Age dropping a misogynistic comment (and hey, he’s Arl Howe).

Genderswaps work well in that kind of setting. Choice of Romance, by contrast, took an inherently sexist genre (Victorian romance novels) and tried to make it accessible to all genders and sexual orientations, and while it worked reasonably well, there’s still some weird spots and it takes very, very good writing to let the reader suspend disbelief.

@Havenstone LOL, it’s only been what five months? but thanks for finally getting around to making that admission. Better late than never.

@Ramidel D&D wasn’t always what it is today. First edition tried hard to maintain a certain degree of realism in a world where magic existed. Women had lower maximum strengths than men, pure fighters and thieves had no inherent magical abilities, there were no “healing surges” so dying was really easy if you were stupid, lots of towns had brothels, etc… With each edition since, the game has taken additional steps away from its origins in the name of “balance”, “broadening the audience”, and “lowering controversy” until we’ve arrived at the 4th edition which plays like a perfectly balanced video game aimed at 12 year olds who want to kick derriere with not the slightest attempt at being the least bit believable.

Clearly I’m not a fan of the 4th edition which has been a failure for its publisher WoTC, but every edition had its share of flaws. My point though is that D&D has gone through numerous iterations and has changed over time. The changes aren’t always in the same direction either. And I for one will take G R R Martin’s Song of Ice and Fire over anything any D&D authors have written. The only D&D author who has managed to approach G R R Martin’s success is Bob Salvatore, and I grew bored with Salvatore’s highly unbelievable characters over a decade ago. Martin’s Brienne on the other hand I find very believable. My favorite of Martin’s characters however is Aria Stark. I utterly adore her indomitable spirit.

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@Patch101, I agree that it would be stupid to try to “force” an author to change the way they write gender – at any time, not just halfway through! Still don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking them to do it, though. If the pronoun change weren’t difficult, I don’t understand why it would be annoying; and even if it took a moderate amount of work, I’d suggest that the inclusiveness payoff is likely worth it.

@Redgrave: first, don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting that at this point The Fleet would benefit from having a gender choice added. The author already put plenty of work into making The Fleet neutral – and by doing so, made it inclusive, which is the main benefit I’m arguing for. No need to put in the work of changing it now.

That said, if we could rewind to back when Jonathan Valuckas was deciding to either go neutral or have a “choice of pronouns,” I’m still not sure why we’d prefer neutral. As I mentioned above, I really don’t think it’s easier to studiously avoid pronouns than to write ${} around them. “Neutral” is interestingly different, but that doesn’t seem to be why you and Wyrmspawn have been praising it…

What you seem to be saying (and please correct me if I’ve got this wrong) is that if Valuckas had chosen to use pronouns, he would have IYO been obliged to write his game differently – he would have had to include a romance, or sexual attraction, or people responding differently to your character, or something to justify that choice.

If so: why? Why should allowing the reader to choose male/female need justifying – if you’re otherwise comfortable with a setting and story like The Fleet where gender doesn’t matter? Are you annoyed by choices which simply have the function of helping the reader imagine the character more vividly, but have no other impact on the story (e.g. choice of hair color)? Or are you ok with those choices in principle, but just think choice of sex should always be plot-significant… even if the author has a perfectly good plot in mind where it matters so little that he could leave it out entirely?

The Fleet allows the reader to imagine the world without setting any rules. Surely the benefits are obvious.

“Choice of Broadsides is designed to let the player feel like the protagonist of a Hornblower or Aubrey/Maturin novel". This feel was ruined by the awkward looking choice of flipped pronouns throughout the game. This is the main problem with flipped pronouns. They are slightly crude at times and don’t fit into the story. Nit just in Choice of Broadsides, in Affairs of the court, there is a scene where Augustina somehow “lifts you up effortlessly with her strong arms”. Awkward, I’d say.

In The Fleet, there was no such problem. If you weren’t reading too closely, everything was natural and neutral. CoGs that offer gender choices are neutral, but (mostly) not so natural. Some daring writers are writing according to historical facts, but then, the gender of the story is not quite so neutral anymore. The Fleet is perfectly neutral and natural in this way.

I’m not clamouring that all choice of gender games have romances, just that this could have been done in other games where there aren’t any romances. Or even if there are romances, this same gender neutrality can be used, as long as nothing is too… well-described… anyway, this is why I support the nonexistence of pronouns. It gives you room to imagine everything exactly the way you like it. I hope none of you will be offended or bored by this rant. Thank you if you have stuck to reading through all of it. :-j

It is immensely curious, the sort of language used by those who adopt an egalitarian position on gender. Any difference is assumed to be “artificial” or “irrelevant”; any observational recognition of those differences is “misogynistic” and “sexist”; any societal recognition of those differences is “patriarchal” (practically never matriarchal, for some reason). There’s a difference between having equal opportunities and having identical natures - and these are not the words used by people who want a level playing field, but by those who want to level the players, as 'twere. Giving the player the opportunity to shape their character as they wish should not involve making those traits inconsequential; and gender is of immense consequence.

Consider how such a levelling mind-set when adopted by an author would alter the nature of their work: You’d lose out a lot of the nuances and details, the preferences and restrictions, - all the things which help make something believable. Were you make it so that there is one, genderless course for a player to get what they want, you eradicate the possibility of so many great characters: A Hawksian woman exists only by contrast, a femme fatale only through femininity, and likewise a protective matriarch can only be had in a world where femininity is present (albeit in a very different way). The same can be said of men: from the masculinity of honour you get the chivalrous knight or principled gentleman, or on the flipside of that masculinity the rake and the bounder appear, which is not to mention the contrast of the dandy. It is precisely because of an environment with gender that such personas can exist. Deny the difference, and you deny players the option to realistically mould their characters into any of the aforementioned styles.

In games such as The Fleet, a lack of gender doesn’t matter, purely because it’s not a character-based game but a decision-based one. But I should say any game where social interaction is a factor which doesn’t account for the role of gender has done itself an injustice by neglecting a trove full of possibilities. Personally, I should like to see those troves plundered for all they’re worth.

That said, gender should always be a factor, but never an impassable obstruction. So let’s say some unruly warrior needs to be tackled: a very masculine character could perhaps clash with this hypothetical chappy on fairly even terms, but were a woman to try and do the same, it strikes me as a lot of hand-waving on the author’s part to allow her to succeed. Poison is the most common weapon of choice for a woman with good reason, after all. Do not deny a man/woman the chance to succeed in a feminine/masculine environment respectively, but ensure they have to take the difference between their gender and the sphere in question into consideration. At the very least they’ll be more engaged with the environment, and more empathetic to the needs of the character.

Put simply, genders are neither equal nor unequal. We have no objective standard with which to measure them by and say “This is better” or “They are equivalent”. All we have are the natures of individuals and those of the people around them; it is by this latter standard, - that of character and environment, - that any game should be structured. To deny that gender affects either is to be at best unduly narrow in that regard, or at worse to be bluntly restrictive.

@Wyrmspawn, don’t worry or apologise – if nowhere else, on this thread you’re warmly encouraged to write posts that are long enough to get your point across!

Maybe you can help me understand how Broadsides’ Aubrey/Hornblower vibe is “ruined” by an initial choice of sexes. Seems to me that readers who want a straight-up Aubrey/Hornblower story can simply choose “male” and all the pronouns will fall perfectly into place – not a single one will seem odd.

I thought it was clearly signposted in the text that if instead you chose “female,” you’d be choosing to play the rest of the game in an Opposite-Land where those historical British ideas about what is masculine and feminine are simply, sharply reversed.

If for some reason you find that alternate world annoying rather than amusing and/or thought-provoking, there’s no requirement to play with that set of pronouns. Which is why I’m still struggling to understand how the existence of that Opposite-Land path would upset someone. They’ve got a normal Hornblower story if they click “male, of course” at the beginning – they won’t have any “flipped pronouns throughout the game.” How has it been ruined?

AotC is trying to do something different – it puts you in a traditionally “feminine” role (trying to attract a more powerful mate with your beauty/wiles/virtue) no matter what sex you choose. And unlike Broadsides, AotC devotes some time to sketching out the alternate universe within which that degree of gender equality would actually make sense. It’s more ambitious, and so fails a bit more often.

I agree that the differential of strength implied by Agustin/a “lifting you effortlessly” in AotC is a mistake – whether or not it was intentional, which I suspect it may have been. It distracts unnecessarily from the other, more interesting ways that the story subverts gender expectations.

And thanks for explaining your thoughts on The Fleet. Personally, pronouns don’t limit my ability to “imagine the world without setting any rules,” because I don’t believe that any specific rules inescapably follow from our biology. When I read a story set in a different universe, I’m open to the idea that gender roles and rules might be significantly different from ours. What I would find pretty unnatural, though, would be anyone trying to write a romance without using pronouns. YMMV…

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