Writing about gender, power, and privilege

@VooDooDolly What on earth gave you the impression that I somehow think rape victims should hate all men? or all women for not protecting them? I do not and have never held either position.

I agree that condensing the male population into two sides is silly and completely illogical. As I clarified to @ZigZagZoom yesterday, that was never my intent.

There is nothing wrong with being a friend. Nothing at all. And of course nobody owes sex to anyone else.

Given that I actually agree with your positions on all of the above, I really don’t understand what provoked this diatribe. And since I was building on generalizations and stereotypes you yourself made, I’m also kind of surprised that you’ve chosen to make such an issue about the overuse of generalizations and stereotypes.

She’s Actually a Member of the Forum now

Christ, Dolly! I’m sorry for what happened to you, Rape is A Horrible Crime, and I Hope that Your Cousin that did that to you Got what he Deserved: Death. I mean Rape Is Horrible and Wrong, but Rape of A Family member is Even Worse! I agree with RRR, In that I hope you Fully Recovered From that Horrible Ordeal.

@VooDooDolly It truly saddens me that you had to suffer through so much at such a young age. What was done to you was terrible, and doubly so because it was a family member. Know that your revelation has given me a better understanding of why this subject is such a personally meaningful one to you. I do believe that deep down you and I agree on the important things, and so I’d like to resolve this discussion in a friendly and respectful fashion with you.

@P_Tigras, you said above that you were “building on generalizations” used in @VoodooDolly’s earlier posts. But if I’m reading you both correctly, she’s not using Good Guy Syndrome as a generalization about anyone’s real-world behavior – she’s saying it’s a false if frequently-heard story about how men and women interact, and she wants to puncture it.

You, on the other hand, are saying that there’s significant validity to the “Girls-who-like-bad-boys-instead-of-nice-guys” stereotype, and backing it up with stories from your own experience.

So perhaps it shouldn’t come as a surprise that she disagrees with you as vehemently as she does – and disagrees precisely on the point of how we use generalizations and stereotypes?

Over the years I’ve seen a lot of my fellow het male geeks resort to heavily gendered explanations of their romantic disappointments – broadly speaking, “she didn’t like me, because women [are from Venus] and are attracted to men [from Mars] and I’m [from Pluto]” – and I’ve never found it convincing. Romance is tough, mysterious, and scary whether you’re attracted to men, women, or everyone. It’s particularly daunting if we realize just hard it is to really know or understand the people we say we’re in love with; drawing broad lines of “men-are-like-this” and “women-are-like-this” is a comforting illusion that makes us feel less blind than we actually are.

@Havenstone

I was trying to put this to rest instead of fan the flames further, but you’ve given me no choice but to fully lay out my issues with VooDooDolly’s words. Hopefully this will lead to better understanding and a resolution rather than making things worse.

She started it all off by generalizing about women and stating what women desired. In reality she wasn’t talking about all women however, only those who felt like her. When I responded to her generalization with a generalization of my own and mentioned the popularity of 50 Shades of Grey as a supporting argument, she stereotyped the estimated 20 million women who have read the novel as"Neglected Housewives" and “Virgin Girls Who Write Yaoi Fanfiction”. She further stated that "No decent or experienced mind would read such, and again forgive me for being vulgar, crap. Not for enjoyment, at least. These people are clearly not the best women can offer. "

Perhaps I’m mistaken, but it certainly sounded to me like she very negatively stereotyped and generalized 20 million women since she vehemently disagrees with their enjoyment of such a novel.

Then she ripped into “nice guys”, saying: “They are not the great guys they claim to be, they are just men bitter because their “kindness” is not being paid with sex. Because, you know, women are machines in which you put a dollar and sex comes out. Obviously.”

Sorry, that sounds a lot like generalizing to me, and very negative generalizing at that. And yes, I found it offensive. This is why I told her she shouldn’t be so quick to negatively characterize and dismiss the perspectives of others.

In retrospect, had I known about her background beforehand, I wouldn’t have replied to her initial generalization with another generalization that someone with her background could be reasonably expected to consider anathema. That was a mistake on my part. Nevertheless, she’s done quite a bit of generalizing too, and highly insulting generalizing at that.

Yaoi Fanfiction? What the fuck is Yaoi Fanfiction?
@P_Tigras, @VoodooDolly, @Havenstone,
My Friends,
I think we should just throw all words and Arguments aside and Just Sum everything up with a quote from Joseph Conrad’s Heart Of Darkness, which I’ve never read, but have learned the synopsis of it online.
Here’s the quote:
“The Horror! The Horror!”

@Zed

Yaoi Fangirls are women who like watching handsome men engaging in homoerotic activities with each other, up to and including sex. It comes from Japanese anime. I haven’t read 50 Shades of Grey, but to my knowledge there is none of that in the book. I know it contains a significant amount of BDSM, but this is the first time I’ve heard anyone mention Yaoi.

I’m all for throwing up my hands at this point too.

Wow…I Didn’t need that knowledge…

I’m on board with the letting this topic rest as well and perhaps moving on, RRR brought up women in the military as a discussion topic earlier.

@RRR Congrats on the pregnancy!

@VoodooDolly, I’m so very sorry that happened to you.

@Zed, Oh it gets worse if you really look into it, there’s all kinds of types and codewords and everything XD

Ugggh, who finds that pleasurable? Who?
On another note, HOW can Someone find that Pleasurable? It’s like That 2 Girls, One Cup shit,
Just Nasty.

@Zed, I have a lot of friends that find Yaoi pleasurable, granted they all seem to be around 14-16 years old. But that’s probably just a sweeping generalization. I suppose it’s exactly the same as a man finding lesbians attractive.

I Suppose so…

@Zed, it’s just gay sex – no more scary than straight sex, even if it doesn’t turn you on personally.

@P_Tigras, appreciate you not wanting to “fan flames further.” I think it’s still possible to (as you said) “resolve this discussion in a friendly and respectful fashion” and was hoping to clarify the areas of agreement and disagreement toward that end. But I’m not going to push anyone to keep it going if you’d rather talk about something else.

Regarding women in the military, I don’t have an issue with women flying planes, including fighter jets, or in non-combat positions. The two places where I have the most difficulty seeing women are co-ed submarine crews and combat infantry units.

Submarines are tight and cramped. There is no privacy and you have no power to choose your bunkmates. A woman’s male bunkmates are going to see her naked, she’s going to see them naked, and their bodies often are going to be rubbing up against each other continually as they pass each other throughout the day while working on the sub. The line between inadvertent touch and an unwanted touch is not always clear. Furthermore they’re going to be confined together in that sardine can for months without any ability to leave the situation, and only highly infrequent communication with their families. It’s a pressure-cooker situation and a recipe for trouble. I’m thus more inclined to support an entirely female submarine crew than co-ed crews for that reason.

Combat infantry units carry a lot of weight on their backs, and it’s a rare woman who has the upper body strength of even the average man. There is also the issue of women not being able to carry a wounded man off the battlefield. Now I don’t think women should be excluded simply based on the fact that they’re women. Nevertheless I do think it perfectly reasonable to set a minimum strength requirement that is based on objective conditions. Those women who pass the strength requirement should have just as much right to join the infantry as men. The strength requirement should -not- be lowered simply to increase the percentage of women in the infantry.

There is also a morale issue. Let’s face it, captured or killed female soldiers are bigger public relations problem for the government to deal with than captured or killed male soldiers. Just look at the media circus over Jessica Lynch’s capture and subsequent abuse in 2003. It’s a double standard, certainly, but it exists, and it will affect policy making once female combat soldiers become more common. Depending on one’s point of view, it’s possible this is a good thing, since it may force the government to plan foreign entanglements with greater care.

@Havenstone Understood. You may be right. I’m all for coming to a friendly meeting of the minds. That’s usually better than allowing misunderstandings to fester. So I’m up for continuing to clarify the areas of agreement and disagreement towards that end if @VooDooDolly wishes.

I only object to pregnant women in the military. I don’t believe they should be there in that condition. Also I believe both women and men should pass a strength test, men can also have weak upper-body strength.

I thought a pregnant woman was sent home from the military the moment her commanding officers found out? (not in a discharged way in a maternity leave way)

@Bikkje What if they’re already in the military when they become pregnant? What if they’re in a position where pregnancy doesn’t significantly impact their performance?

I entirely agree with your second point. Allow me to extend my earlier statement to address that. Women who pass the strength requirement should have just as much right to join the infantry as men who pass the same strength requirement. Similarly men who fail the test should not be able to join those units either.

@P_Tigras I mean when there is a noticeable bulge or when, correct me if I am misinformed, an abundance of physical might be harmful for the baby?