…ah, you meant LT as love triangle. 
I was so confused!
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@Nazroth
I doubt we’ll ever get a proper, agreed-upon relationship with M. It will be some unspoken bullshit and the MC will be fine with never really having a commitment or actual relationship because they are magically psychic on M’s route and know exactly what M thinks without M having to say it.
I’m sure M’s will be the only romance that has no commitment or proper relationship, since A will fall all over themselves committing to the MC as soon as they get over their trauma or whatever in b7.
The side character paths are beginning to annoy the hell out of me just for this reason. And we’re railroaded in those, too. In Tina’s route, we look like an asshole who doesn’t want their friend to be happy because we aren’t given the option to tell Tina that Adr is a fucking Agency spy. Are we really supposed to be that dedicated to these asshats now? That we’re willing to fuck over our friend and let her get into a relationship that’s built on lies??
On Verda’s route, it’s clear the “correct” option is to push them to the Agency because having all those resources will make him happy and the Agency is soooooo great. 
I find it amusing that the Agency didn’t shove a spy on Verda if you go that route. Only Tina. I can’t think of any reason for that other than it being a plot device.
Same with Bobby/Douglas. Why would the trappers give Douglas powers, but decide to turn Bobby into a mindless server? I think Bobby being turned could’ve been really interesting–see how the tabloid reporter deals with being turned into a powerful being who, if they share that info, might be hunted. It would pose more of a dilemma for them than what happened.
Even if the Agency worked correctly, it could work. Given that no one has popped up and said, “Hey, I have solar powers, too, and can teach you to use them and be in control of them”, we have to assume no one else associated with the Agency has those abilities, so MC is the only one who can deal with Li-sar. That said, I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if there are others in the Agency with the same type of power but no one gives enough of a damn to get them involved.
I’m not holding my breath, even if she did originally say it would be end of b4 or sometime in b5 before M and MC are “deep romance” (whatever the fuck that means, because A’s is supposedly “deep romance” from the start).
You shouldn’t be surprised. The only reason the MC has magic is to create bullshit drama with the LIs and to push them apart so no progress can be made yet again. Some McGuffin will come along to defeat Li-sar and the MC will be powerless again by the end of b4 (or sooner). I figure the MC may be able to “save” someone by syphoning off the magic, but it will never occur to them to try to syphon the freaking dome around the town. Which…
Isn’t the facility an hour from Wayhaven?? How the hell is the dome covering it, too?
@dorquemada 
Love the puns.
I think that’s a nice summary of Wayhaven, in general.
Same. The personality stats are pointless. She should’ve done like Bacon did with ItFO and just had a set personality and leave it at that. Honestly, it feels like the player has more control over the marshal than with the detective, even given the complete lack of personality stats.
@vera
The MC definitely needs to go to a doctor. Between the arrhythmia, the strokes, the seizures, and the obvious psychological issues the have when they lay eyes upon their LI, they need help.
The funny part is that it wouldn’t be so bad if these reactions happened at times that made sense. But the MC acts this way all the time. There’s no build-up to emotion and suspense, it’s just set to overdrive 24/7, no matter the situation.
That’s fucking stupid. Are we supposed to believe the Agency doesn’t have the information unless the MC is romancing them?
I really wish this would be more of a focus for this one, but I know it won’t be, and will only be used to create whatever “moments” are planned. Kind of like in b3, I really wish the focus had been on the trappers and others coming after the MC for the bounty, but instead it turned into kidnapping of the week with the MC suffering a nervous breakdown because some rando got kidnapped.
While I’m making fruitless wishes, I wish there were choices for the MC to be flippant about dying and more focused on taking Li-sar out than anything else. That’s pretty much how Dezh would deal with it. “This shit is going to kill me either way, so I’m taking that motherfucker out with me.” Then let the MC go about trying to do just that.
At least M gave a shit enough to do the “don’t say that!” thing.
The non-romance route sounds lame. I guess most content is cut out of it. And the LT sounds nauseating.
FWIW, M is also more open to a bff-MC than to a romanced-MC. You get to hear M’s story and learn about the previous team member. M doesn’t tell romanced-MC fuck all, probably because they won’t stop asking if they really really don’t remember anything. Fuck you, MC.
I mean, you aren’t wrong.
This is another reason I think it would make more sense if M already knew how they feel (as is indicated at the end of b3), and was just too scared to say anything, at this point, given how they have behaved in the past. If M was thinking to themselves that, if MC accepts M acting like they’re together, is that enough? Does he actually have to say it and risk… then sneering at his own thoughts about it and focusing on something else because he doesn’t want to admit he’s too chickenshit to take the risk. Maybe I just identify with M too much, lol.
No, I didn’t know that. I know you can get a Chana scene if Rebecca went with you in b3 to deal with the trappers (since neither Bobby nor Douglas learn about the supernatural). Is this different?
And dammit, how do you get Tane to talk to about affiars of the heart? I got Lesedi, who is fine, but I like Tane better. And Lesedi was all, “why don’t you want Mason to know you’re in love with him?” (in so many words). Dezh had no good choice to that because her response would’ve been, “Have you fucking met him? You know what he’d do if someone uttered the ‘l’ word around him?” She thought Lesedi was well-meaning but ridiculously stupid and naive.
Thanks for the share on the Li-sar route. It reminds me why I freaking hate the MC. More shivering and overdramatics. 
The MC feels like they should be 12 or 13, not in their 20s.
So basically like every other romance? MC is an overwrought doormat, while the LI gets to be cool and push the MC away whenever they want.
Except for M, which will be lowkey and undefined. But then, I still think she hates M and wants M-mancers to shift to other paths to prove her dislike of the character correct. She seems to like M as a friend, though.
Worse was the way the narrative kept shoving feelings for N at you if you refuse to be in wuv:
“N is SO FUCKING PERFECT!! You may not have just said you love them but you do! Trust me, you do! Because N IS FUCKING PERFECT!!!”
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I concur, honestly.
I don’t want to derail by bringing up other works here, BUT I do agree that Wayhaven probably would’ve benefited if they went the route of an MC with largely predetermined characteristics that you influence.
Actually, a great comparison for a similar case is what many people felt with DA: Veilguard’s MC. They don’t have enough to be interesting on their own and be a compelling character, but they also have too much forced into them that you can’t call them a pure player avatar either.
And I don’t like being negative, I really don’t. But since Book 1, I’ve grown a lot—literally. What I was okay with before now feels stretched out and overly melodramatic.
And I think that’s the major issue with the series. Length. You don’t need professional or Mastercaft writing to be charming or compelling. But you cannot wear out your welcome. We’re on 4, and one of the ROs is too emotionally stupid to realize they’re in love— not denial or just hesitant, just emotionally stupid.
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Interesting demo, as usual I had the “that’s all?!” reaction at the end. Especially considering that this is the last one until God knows when. I’ll start with the positives to not be too hateful. I like that the plot isn’t as watered down as the last one, especially the ending part with Rebecca, would love to see her fuck things up even more and for mc to blow up on her (yeah I’m the biggest deadbeat-turned-lovebomber mom hater). And also love that the stakes are high with MC’s life on the line. Now for the negatives, God the execution of the aforementioned things is so so poor. The ideas are great, the implementation, not so much. Everything is goofy-fied in these books. The mc just decides to not reveal such an important information to the team, only the RO, like bitch what could you possibly obtain? Everything seems so on surface and shallow. Hell, A’s entire appeal was their intensity, even if they are not the usual romantic. Now they just seem like some average npc Joe. And don’t get me started on the MC itself, such a weak, annoying, mentally frail character. In book 1 the MC could be a badass, was stubborn af, stabbed murphy even when half dead. Now we are forced to be a blushing mess with horrible decision making. Lastly, I wish we had more RO POV’s, then we might understand wtf is going on in their pea sized brain (I still doubt it tbf). All in all, it was fun with main plot and RO interaction (sparsely there) but couldn’t care less about side stories/characters.
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MC to Rebecca: I learned it from you, Mum!
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They still have it. MC just doesn’t notice his tragic backstory because LIs distract them from reading the tragic backstory. Yes, literally. Li-Sar’s tragic backstory is revealed solely when MC is alone in their room and reads a dossier again in the finale of the demo.
There are slight sarcastic choices and “we need to destroy Li-Sar no matter the cost” ones. MC angsts little about the stuff if they’re on non-romance or with M save for post-Li-Sar scene where we can rush towards LI of choice. Not a lot, but I’ll take what I can get after LT crew ignoring Lara’s emotional state just to bitch at each other.
Hey, maybe villain romance will help with that! Li-Sar had a weird face when I’ve dragged Illiyana’s dad away from shooting imperial mecha like fish in the barrel for his romance, that can mean something! Maybe he’ll magically turn subby when MC starts actually developing the route! It’s one book long, she can’t drag it out!
M says he’ll reveal it to the rest of the team in his version of the scene. Can’t say much about LT because I started seeing red when they had a gall to nonverbally bitch about MC walking with either of them instead of another.
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The problem with the idea that MC learned from Rebecca is that MC is basically a latchkey kid. They raised themselves, for all intents and purposes, since Rebecca was never around and didn’t act like a mother when she was.
As a latchkey kid, I can tell you that–no matter the base personality of the MC–they wouldn’t be this weak and stupid. They would be self-sufficient. They certainly developed emotional defenses, which comes from being raised by a cold mother and no father or other influence, on top of having no actual nurturing as they aged. They would not fall apart over every little thing because they were used to “dealing with shit” 
on their own.
I can see MC not being emotionally open or even thinking to share information with people that pertains only to the MC (again, it’s part of the “raised yourself” mindset–no one gave a shit what was going on with you, so why bother?). I could even see MC being desperate for some kind of connection, if that’s how they dealt with being alone so much.
What I can’t see is this UwU bullshit all the time and them being incapable of handling the smallest thing without acting like they just shit out a bunch of gold bars. Yay, you tripped someone. BFD. When you do something impressive, call me.
If there’s any way MC should resemble Rebecca, it is in their competence (since R can apparently beat up a bunch of thralls that give UB trouble all by her lonesome and not muss her hair) and her inability to deal with emotion (seriously, no one taught MC how to deal with emotions, so MC should be the stoic, confused person, more so than A or M).
Oh, for fuck’s sake.
Hahaha. You wanna bet? She can resolve it at the very end, have them admit their love at the very end, right before Li-sar dies or is put in his hole again.
A is 900 years old and acts like a 15-year-old with his first crush. N… I don’t even remember how old he is, nor do I really care.
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Ah, that’s the English word! I was looking for it. 
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Yep, it’s literally that. Li-Sar’s tragic backstory is cockblocked by LIs since even Illiyana with her “go away or I’ll fucking gut you” mindset towards the forced soulmate had learned about it. She just had no option to express that she feels pity towards him, which seems to be romance-specific and really, really funny in this specific regard.
Well, he already came in thrice, started strong, stated what he wants and started hunting for the goal the second he saw MC’s sprawled form. We can have up to three romance scenes with him where he is actually responsive to flirting! Also he has a funny line if you do deny your involvment in the ritual. Tfw when a bitchass uke yandere has more emotional interest in your life than half of the squad if you romance them.
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Actually, a great comparison for a similar case is what many people felt with DA: Veilguard’s MC. They don’t have enough to be interesting on their own and be a compelling character, but they also have too much forced into them that you can’t call them a pure player avatar either.
I actually think there could and should be a bit more freedom; the concept allows for it, but a lot of choices feel exactly the same, only MC can shrug or chuckle alongside.
This is a good example; three options out of five are the same complaint. No room for professional agreement for example. I think maybe the author has fallen into the trap of multiple choices always leading to the same thing and that exacerbates the tendency to write this way.
Like in book 1, near the beginning you could choose which place to go to to investigate the murder, you could choose who tags along with you to speak to the victim’s mother, and so on. Not much of that in book 4 now, everything happens pretty automatically except choosing which team you train with - and that feels really unnecessary because these characters don’t add anything to the narrative. Too many side-teams at this point, and none of them bring anything new except “flavour of a supernatural”.
I also wonder how much constructive criticism the author is getting? At this point, Wayhaven is a very profitable series and I’m sure the author could afford an expert editor who could bump this series into excellence. I do think the ingredients are there, and the author seems very passionate about the series which is always great - but there are more and more branching paths, some of which like the aforementioned teams seem pretty irrelevant, some romances are dragging out which is likely a consequence of not restructuring initial plans for the series, the person who seems to be most involved other than the author is her sister who is likely her biggest fan and hype-woman - which is wonderful to have, but there needs to be a counterweight of someone more critical.
(To follow up on your Veilguard comparison - the lead editor is the lead writer’s wife. Yeah.)
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The writer has a team of beta readers (how many, I do not know) but I suspect that the team they got is unfortunately too full of yes men to actually help the problems that she hired them to protect her from.
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You mean a villian is actually allowed to die in this series? 
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Still waiting for content about Murphy escaping and MC having trauma about him doing so. Three books had I been setting this variable for Lara in a row and all I’ve got was Adam triggering Lara’s PTSD during one of their spats.
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You can trigger that on A’s path? I’ve only triggered an episode on F’s, and it wasnt during an argument, it was because of a badly timed joked they made.
Mine was LT and seemed not related to romance - just to the fact that you need to let Murphy escape, have trauma about it and argue with Adam during house investigation in B3.
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I see. Thanks for the screenshot. I do wish more instances of that were included, but i understand the series doesn’t want to ve too dark.
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Yeah, if wasn’t supposed to be dark, it started off wrong. Being captured and altered. The prison system is diabolical imo.
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All I have to say is after reading the update is… I honestly, weirdly prefer Li-sar or whatever their name is than any of the actual ROs. I love N. I love F, too (even if all I can see them as, is as a sibling/bestie type). I even went into A’s route out of curiosity and my god. A is torture. I know I’m beating a dead horse with this one but I wish, I BEG, that MC could tell A to either get over it or they’re walking away.
I get you got things going on, A. 900 years or something of trauma and stuff. Fine, fair. But by the time you’ve figured it out, MC is gonna be six feet under from old age 
. You have infinite amount of time, dude.
Anyway… I don’t know, I just liked the back and forth between MC and the baddie. I assume any romance will villains as a one and done thing, left to headcannons, right? Maybe what’s why. 
That romance can’t be dragged through several books waiting for the payoff or big emotional moments. I’m enjoying it more than the previous book. But I also liked Book 3’s demo, only to end up disappointed so… I’m still hesitant either way. I also could not stop focusing on the choices being; Nod. [Insert text]. Lift brow. [Insert text]. Spread hands. [Insert text]. Kind of like noticing when an author uses one word or phrase too much and then it sticks out like a neon sign from then on. Like… you can’t just read it and move on anymore 
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Yeah….most of A’s “romance” scenes are just trauma dumps and I started physically rolling my eyes into the back of my head every time I had to read another life story of his then just for him be an ass to the mc. At this point, I get it, and my mc thoroughly gets it and no matter how many times the story tries to get me to feel bad for A, I still do not care.
I also find it hard to see N or F as anything but friends/siblings type relationships. Although I have made an mc for N’s route but his romance creeps me out with all the weird yandere shit
F’s romance….its been a long time since I tried to play their route and I didn’t like it when I did but that’s most likely because I see F as more of a friend type anyways.
Now the mc I made for M’s route is a hot headed idiot so it may be hard for him to realize his own feelings too but he’ll still probably realize them a lot sooner than M does which just makes me sad since they had such sweet moments in B2-3 but M’s just backtracking it all it seems in the demo….
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Hey all! Once again asking that people use this thread for constructive criticism and that re-hashing the same five negative arguments in an echo chamber isn’t the most effective way to convey your points.
Please be respectful and kind, especially when frustrated!
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