The Breasts Issue

General
41

For me (who do enjoy looking at women’s breasts, while having my own) the weirdest disconnect comes from the senator thinking that the MC is looking at her breasts at all? I feel that the assumption would be that the MC was admiring her dress, or possibly necklace/jewelry.

In my opinion, women objectify each other by commenting on dresses, shoes, jewelry, nails or hair in public. In private (with other people than the one they are talking about), they would comment on the other person’s weight, whether breasts might be fake, how much makeup is worn or plastic surgery issues.

I mean the paragraph sounds clunky and rude, but most of all very, very teenage boy, assuming that women are as obsessed with their breasts and who looks at them rather than the things that are real status markers between women. I would have written it more like:

“Rosseau, why do you keep staring at my dress? If you are that envious, maybe you should ask that sage Moreau, apprentice of the Tailor. Maybe he could make you something so you will feel better about yourself.”

Her words caught you off-guard, causing you to redden and avert your gaze. She chuckles at this.

“Relax.”

She says to you, and then her expression turns serious.
“I have a proposal for you though, Rosseau. Listen carefully.”

A. Alright, let’s hear it.
B. Save it for someone else instead, Le Roux.

Or, simply have the first line be:

“Rosseau, my dear, is there something in my cleavage?"

if you want to keep the friendly flirtiness without having it feel like they are auditioning for Hustler.

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42

Oh, this is a good idea, too!

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43

Have to agree with @malinryden. In general and particularly given the co-worker “senator” setting the only reasons I could think I would be staring there is if I was thinking how inappropriate/unprofessional her attire was for the parlimentary session (if it was very revealing), or if I wasn’t actually looking there at all (ie looking at her dress or necklace instead). If I caught someone female looking at me I’d usually assume they were looking at my outfit first as well. I don’t think I’ve ever felt like making an “eyes up here please” type comment to another female (or seen one made by others for that matter, so what’s being played out is probably pretty unusual and sounds a bit awkward/forced).I do like mylinryden’s ideas though :slight_smile:

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44

Never has a truer thing been said. I cannot count how many times that thought has gone through me when it involved politics, political correctness or other such things happening.

My two cents are this, we’re all objects in the grand scheme of things. Floats away into the ether

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45

@malinryden Idea is great. Also in most of Congress and that. Etiquette forbidden women to go dressing like that in fact EU forbade to the Italian pornographic actress and political Italian enter in the Eu parliament with a dress like you describe because break the public etiquette. The dress was black instead silver. I am straight but like I like role-playing very different characters I could say what any bi o lesbian Mara would look at.
Certainly not a Silverado dressing like a play boy politician she would look but for shame the poor girl.
A pretty dress proper with a beautiful shoes and jewellery that matches her eyes. Then a little wink and a smile. And some line saying that their diamonds are not the only shiny in her and how I admire her wit . Not certainly looking as a horny teen male her breasts.

46

I didn’t read every reply so this may have been covered, but only this line bothers me:
“Her words caught you off-guard, causing you to redden and avert your gaze. She chuckles at this.”

This takes away player agency. Maybe this is a nested line that already checks a stat but if you are forcing a player to be caught off guard and have a determined reaction, it breaks immersion. Maybe I am a player who would not feel embarrassed.

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47

(First of all this is all coming from a straight woman)

Personally I think the dialogue is a bit clunky. Even if we assume that the MC is looking at the senators breasts, and the senator are aware of this, I find absolutely no reason to why increasing in size would be mentioned (also when in the context of dullness, which is a really weird way to describe breasts). I agree with some of the alternative ways of dialogue that @malinryden suggest. :slight_smile:

[quote=“Knightstrike, post:1, topic:18636”]
Do you oggle at other women’s breasts? Do other girls’ breasts fascinate you? [/quote]

Not ogling no. I can appreciate the female form, and if a woman is wearing something that accentuates her breast, I’ll probably notice them, but it’s more of a passing notice and I won’t further dwell on it and then I’ll move on with my day.

And breast alone don’t really fascinate me, sometimes they are fun to have, sometimes not. They are interesting in a biological sense, but that’s just me who finds the entire human anatomy fascinating (in the scientific sense).

Yes…? I’m not sure why it wouldn’t come up at some point. Me and my female friends talk about tons of different subjects, so breast has been talked about at some point (although it’s not a frequent stand-alone subject). ^^

In what context of the scene would it make you feel awkward? Is it regarding the scene itself, or if the case was that you were forced into it (you said it was optional, so you wouldn’t experience the scene, without actively choosing it).

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48

Wait…what???..
So you’re basically stereotyping all women with low cut tops to be “sluts”? When I last checked, clothes were a freedom of expression and to say that all women that wear a certain type of clothes(a dress in this occasion) are “sluts” is just plain wrong in my opinion.
Thats like me wearing my favourite Warrior’s hat and other people calling me a bandwagon 'cause of it.:wink:

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49

This is a reminder to remain polite and be careful with your phrasing on any potentially contentious issues.

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50

Oof, this is a really complicated topic, with several layers. Let’s try and unpack the issues here:

  • Objectifying - In general, most women don’t enjoy being reduced to body part, either sexually or otherwise. Straight women do stare at other women to “compare notes”, breasts included, but this is usually only half-conscious and not intended as an interaction. It always reflects back to the person observing e.g. “her hair looks so nice, mine is such a mess today” or “wow her skirt is so tight, is mine riding up like that?”.

  • Sexuality - Women who are attracted to other women still don’t have the male gaze, for obvious reason. They can and do objectify other women, but this works on a more emotional level that has a different context and base of comparison. This vary even more depending on the cultural context - is the observing woman a lesbian in a queer-friendly environment, a bisexual in a straight relationship, a closeted lesbians? These are all factors.

  • Player Agency - The most relevant point here is that forcing the player to treat NPCs in a certain way is rarely well received. The plot may require the MC to act a certain way, but social interaction is one of the biggest deal-breakers for many players, simply because it is rarely justified. In this case as well, there are many way to navigate such a scene without forcing a certain behavior, and so it’s hard to accept this action is necessary for a player who find it unpleasant to read.

TL;DR It is not really relevant how women may act in this situation realistically, because this scene is either unnecessary and can be discarded or required and can only be changed in a limited way. Either way it is unlikely to be received positively - a neutral reaction is the best possible scenario.

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51

No, no Put a political woman in a public event dressed against the etiquette and only emphasize in her boobs is machist and is making her look as an object instead a woman. I had gone to naturist nudist places So I have nothing against provocative clothing. However no nudist guy or girl go to a public event nude or against the event etiquette. In her private live she could dress like a sm maid for all I care . But same as nobody put a congress man dress provocative half nude or with transparencies and ogling at him . Put a public figure dressed in a incorrect way to emphasize her sexuality is machist In Spanish objectify a woman is calling making her like a slut . Sorry if in English is offensive I don’t know how in English the say is.

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52

@Poison_Mara

I think you have some very valid points.

But, do not call women sluts for the way they dress. That is wrong and sexist. Actually it is best not to call women sluts at all, not even if they use the word to describe themselves.

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53

Oh, Then how is the world then… just objectify? You don’t have any metaphor? Damn English is so literal. Making a woman look like a abandoned trash could be accurate?

54

Yes. Just say it objectifies her. Your point about how her dress is inappropriate can be valid. That it can call into question her professionalism. Female politicians are far more frequently judged on their clothes and appearance than men ever are and have to answer to every dress decision they make.

That men are never treated the same way, and that certainly a man wearing similarly risque attire (not that there really is similar for men) would raise eyebrows. But we just don’t see that.

But don’t use slut. Even if she is sexually promiscuous and inappropriately dressed it’s best to avoid the use of that word. I wouldn’t say she looks like abandoned trash either.

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55

Hmm perfect I would change it in Spanish we use metaphor to emphasize our point. For me without something like that is nude the text. But I have to get used to more literal paraphrasing if I want live England. :sob: I am so terrible people will hate me there

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56

Distasteful maybe? Because (or at least for me it is) it is kind of distasteful if someone dresses inappropriately in a professional setting. But… isn’t it subjective what is inappropriate and what is not?

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57

No it’s not there is protocol international laws that’s applied in this context. Breaking it could carry several diplomatic problems wars has being caused for that. In Spain almost a war started because the new frech princess show her legs in a party A SPANISH FUTURE QUEEN HAS NO LEGS
Edit that happened in XVII

58

Arabs countries has reported to ambassadors women for indecency clothing.

59

I feel like we are looking at this from two different standpoints. You clearly know more about this than I do, because I am looking at it like any other professional setting. If there is a protocol that applies in this context, it’s not just distasteful but also disrespectful.

60

…I thought the game is set in a fantasy setting? Doesn’t the world even have a different calendar? Do they even have such laws?

So it really depends more on the context of the world it plays in and if it has unfortune implications in the context the reader comes from which also influence each other. Like the Ms. Fanservice trope or the clichee of the woman that slept her way up.

It would be interesting from a cultural view if they just don’t have such a strict dress code in the game setting as we are used to…but in tthat case I would question why the MC even mentiones the dress specifically, besides the “Wooh boobs” point…what invokes the Ms. Fanservice trope again.

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