@FairyGodfeather Yes, duh!
Damn. This topic really hit home for me as living in an abusive relationship is terrible. From my experience the best thing to do is find outside help, and try not to do what my parents did - Inflate the problem. They stopped thank god but abusive relationships can leave mental scars, especially If youâre little and actually see the beatings.
I think that interactive fiction can be an extremely powerful tool. That itâs the one game medium which you could use to portray the horrors of being trapped in an abusive relationship.
It may be more appropriate to the type of thing theyâre doing with Twine as opposed to choicescript. Something like depression quest. Or just a story where whatâs initially portrayed a sickeningly sweet romantic love, with the perfect romantic hero, is slowly revealed to be an extremely controlling, manipulative relationship, where the protagonists goal is not to fall in love, but itâs to escape.
I think most games where youâre in a toxic relationship this is glossed over. What Black Magic did, for instance, I viewed as extremely toxic. The Monarch in Choice of Romance, is again in that category for me. But the text never highlights this, never even allows the option to say this is wrong. This sort of romance is toxic, poisonous, destructive, relationships shouldnât be like this. This isnât sexy at all.
Iâd love to see a romance story that did that, which begins with the protagonist being swept off their feet by a dashing hero, a world filled with possibilities which is slowly eroded away as the romantic interest makes comments about their clothes, tiny small criticisms, gradually cuts them off from their friends and the protagonist starts losing choices until all they have left is just doing what their lover wants them to do. And then allowing them to finally find a way to break out of that, and get their happy ever after in escaping, finding themselves once more.
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@trollhunterthethird I feel you. I didnt have my dad growing up because he left when I was about 5 but my stepdad and mom had physical falling out daily I think thatâs why I have hardcore insomniac because of all the screaming and fighting at night when I was little, but I just really hope no one thinks relationships like that are a positive thing ever, thatâs not a great way to express feelings or communicate at all.
Couple things:
FairyGodfeather: do you mean âunconsummatedâ instead of âunrequitedâ for Romeo+Juliet or Lancelot+Guinevere? I have a lot of trouble parsing what youâve said when you say they would have been âbetterâ. Healthier for their participants? Certainly. But nobody (well, almost nobody) looks at Rosalind+Romeo and says âThatâs a better romance!â and the same is true of Elaine+Lancelot and both of those are definitely unrequited (although not, in the case of Elaine+Lancelot, unconsummated).
The other thing is: thereâs a difference between a âlove storyâ and a âromance storyâ, in modern usage. There are going to be genre expectations of anything actually pitched as a romance story. This is one reason the genre of âWomenâs Fictionâ exists in books, because telling the story of how a protagonist fell in love and slowly realized they were being abused, and escaped that relationship is a really terrible romance. Possibly even a Bad Romance. Itâs a fine (even great) story, but⌠itâs not a romance.
ETA: I didnât mean to be all âTHIS IS THE WAY IT IS GET IT RIGHTâ, just that casually using the word âromanceâ to mean âany story with sexual+emotional relationshipsâ is lightly tossing around a word that is heavy with meaning. Sorry to be abrupt, I have strong opinions and am posting while a toddler pulls on my leg!
A better outcome for them is what I meant. Not that the relationship itself would be better if it had been that way, or even that the story would have been better. Just that everyone would have had more of a chance of surviving.
Youâre right about the using differences between love story, romance story, etc.
Iâve only used Romantic Options in the title of the thread as the name for people that you can pursue relationships with. I perhaps should have used relationship option. I thought that RO was the term most people used though, and it seemed better than love interest.
I suppose youâre right that itâs a terrible romance. Can you tell I donât actually read the genre, or watch movies based on the genre? Actually. Brokeback Mountain (hated it) supposedly an amazing gay romance story, ends with them splitting up, and one of them being murdered. Yet itâs touted as this great romance story.
Im ignorant to the difference of romance vs love stories how can you guys tell the difference? ive been drowned in too much smut peddled off as romance to know the difference.
Ha. âBrokeback Mountainâ⌠oh man⌠I have a bigger rant criticizing that movie than I do for âHeroes Riseâ, but Iâll refrain for everyoneâs sake⌠XD
Albeit, slightly touching upon that subject, itâs actually a common cliched theme for gay romances or love stories within movies or books to end tragically. Video games that have gay romance arches tends to be the form of media thatâs making the most headway in changing this cliche (hence why many in the gay community have been turning to the video game medium for good gay romance/love stories). Because itâs quite typical within a movie or book that the homosexual couple, whether theyâre male or female tend to end with either of them spitting up under some nonsense that itâs âfor the bestâ or one of them is killed tragicallyâeither by murder or freak accident. The latter is typically done if the homosexual love interest is contesting against what is considered the traditional heterosexual love interest, as they vie for the heart for the often (awkwardly) ambiguously bi-curious protagonist. But vastly more common is⌠the typical âsociety isnât ready for this kind of relationshipâ b.s. and thus they either split up for the good of âfamily and friendsâ to make said family and friends lives easier (because their relationship is âselfishâ of them to have, which always made my eyes roll), or one or both of them die in some horrible tragic fashion, so then the issues wrought from the supposed social risk brought up in the former example then becomes a non-issue, and everyone can then go about their merry way because the chaos brought by the existence of the gay couple has ended.
Now before I rail against it too much, thatâs not to say I donât like romances or love stories that end tragically. As I mentioned in my previous comments, I doâwhen executed well. Itâs just within gay romance/love stories whatever category or genre one wants to ascribe the relationship as, they always tend to have a âbad endâ. This is especially exclaimed within lesbian romances, and thatâs not to say the homosexual male ones donât have their own baggage with regards to cliched tragic destruction of the gay romance/love story ending (becauseâoh yes, they do, very much so). Itâs simply by law of averages, lesbians are more socially accepted, because women tend to be more tolerant with two gay women than men are with two gay men (and many men are more accepting of lesbians also for more baser fantasies), itâs just a sad social dynamic (though times are progressively changing for the better); but in any case, itâs for that reason (among others, i.e. most film directors and writers are men), when making a movie or writing a story about a gay romance/love story, it tends to be a lesbian one. And thus by proxy it tends to be their tales that fall into the cliched tragic endings that I been talking about that gay romance/love stories wind up falling victim to.
It all really is quite comedic when now looking back at it over the years. But again, thankfully times are changing in this regard, and those cliches with gay romance/love stories these are becoming fewer and fewer, and are instead actually starting to receive some kind of happy ending. But anyway, it all falls right back to my earlier points that tragedy in a romance (speaking in general now) whether it be loss or love unrequited, it boils down to execution and the avoidance the typical cliche pitfalls.
2Ton, depending on what youâre calling âsmutâ you may have a better idea than you think. A romance is primarily about the development of a relationship, and as any fan of the genre will tell you, a romance MUST have an ending where the couple is together and looking forward to an indefinite future together. Stories labelled as âromanceâ that donât end like that will absolutely infuriate readers. A story can have a romantic subplot that doesnât resolve happily, but it is not then a âromanceâ. I know this seems pedantic, but given that the romance genre has been (in America) untouched by the recession and is the single most popular genre in fiction, the ârulesâ of what makes something a romance carry a lot of weight.
A love story doesnât have to have a happy ending. Like Titanic! Totally a love story there, but not a romance. People may toss around âromanceâ to describe the relationship in the movie but the movie itself is not a romance.
Technically, both Romeo & Juliet and Lancelot & Guinevere are tragedies. And in the study of Shakespeare, the âromancesâ (there are four) are distinct not because of having love stories but because they have the depth of the tragedies but have the ridiculously happy endings of the comedies.
Iâm of the opinion that if youâre going to make a game about a romantic relationship you should call it what it is up front. If thereâs no way to work things out, call it a âtragic romanceâ. If itâs a âromanceâ, there should definitely be a not-too-difficult path to a happy ending. If itâs about somebody freeing themselves from the chains of abuse, call it, I dunno, a fictional memoir. Or maybe a twisted love story. (Speaking of which, how about Braid, for a neat look at a twisted love story?)
I had a thought about how so many games have the sideplot romances and what it maybe represented. Iâm trying to remember it.
@Chrysoula I never knew this. Wow, but then again Im not really into those types of stories to begin with, and I guess the stuff that was brought to my attention were mostly love stories then. Thank you for explaining that to me
@Chrysoula: Well, the terminology has drifted in terms of games (and in general). A âromance sidequestâ does not necessarily end well (as any player of Mass Effect 3 will tell you). The Arthurian legends are âromances,â but Le Morte dâArthur is a tragedy in modern terms. So the definition used by the romance genre is not the âone true definition.â
On unrequited love: It can be done well, but itâs tremendously easy to screw up. For a bad example, take Mass Effect 3âs Jacob. âOops, I cheated on you while I was away and I donât care about you anymore, have fun with Sammy now!â No payoff, nothing bittersweet, not even going to the effort to make Jacob anything more than a pathetic asshole. Itâs just a fuck-you to the player from designers who got bitten by the same kind ofâŚcontempt for their own premise that infected The Dark Knight Rises.
On the other hand, in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, you get the situation with Heather and the PC. Spoiler: if you donât let her go, it ends very, very badly. Thatâs the point; itâs a horrible mess of a relationship from the beginning, and itâs doomed to a tragic end because Heather isnât a princess to save or a tie to your lost humanity, sheâs a dependent blood addict who youâre simultaneously enabling and taking advantage of. If this relationship went happily-ever-after, itâd break the point of it.
On the flip side of the coin, Iâm not at all against player-sexual love interests; they generally represent somewhat less work on the part of the designer for the same amount of plot, which is a good thing, but at the cost of some of the âlivingâ character of the world, as it were. The former is generally more important than the latter, if it results in better development for the game as a whole.
Also, while thereâs only one gender in the game, Magical Diary: Horse Hall essentially takes (as a worldbuilding axiom, not just a convention for the PCâs convenience) that everyoneâs more-or-less bisexual anyway. Thatâs not a bad way to do it if the designer wants to build their world that way.
I agree, @Apillis. I bet I could rant alongside you about both the short-story and the movie. Iâm frustrated that this is the sort of story still being told in the mainstream media. Iâve had enough of dead gay characters and Iâve had enough of tragic endings.
Iâm also frustrated that itâs nigh on impossible to find movies in my favourite genres with characters that are gay or bi. So I tend to read books or play games because theyâre far more inclusive and more likely to tell the sort of stories Iâm interested in. Actually Iâm more likely to read synopsis of games or watch playthroughs since Iâm mostly in it for the stories and actual game mechanics gets in the way for me.
I love what Choice of Games is doing though. I love it so much, everything, even the gender-flips because I find those fascinating, how switching a characters gender can make me see them in a completely different light.
Thanks for those clarifications @Chrysoula. Iâd initially planned for my game to be a romance game, first and foremost. Hence why I started this thread so I could get some ideas. I think the conceptâs strayed a little away from that as Iâve been writing. I do plan for all of the romances in my game to have satisfying endings. I donât want anyone to feel cheated.
BLACK MAGIC. Seriously. The best. Except I ditched them after I found out they were an evil witch⌠Then I asked them to help me save millions of lives, and BM was all like âNo way man, you didnât looooove me!â Then they burst out sobbing.
Iâm like, 87% joking up there.
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@lackofmops please use the edit button
Apillisâs first rant reminded me of:
@lackofmaps 87% joking? :-? While I canât speak for the male version, the female version of her is one of the more interesting romanceable characters Iâve encountered in a Choice game. As a morally gray character who resorts to highly questionable methods in order to accomplish great good she certainly makes an impression.
Black magic was my favorite. Choice of dragon all the dragons. There was just nothing there
@P_Tiagras I gotta say I agree with you, and I played my game as a hetero female so I think the male Black Magic is just as interesting as the female version. What I found was really awesome about romancing him is how at first it starts off just too good to be true, like itâs just about everyoneâs dream, to meet their ultimate celebrity crush and then have them totally and instantly fall for you just as much as you have for them. I mean, all along with Blakc Magic I really was expecting something bad to happen cause it really did seem too good to be true. And then comes the negative revelations about him later in the story and youâre able to decide whether that one huge, enormous secret is worth giving up what was otherwise an amazing relationship. So I definitely found it to be an interesting romance plot with him, though maybe a little predictable. I mean while I could have never dreamed up anything like his particular secret, I was expecting some shocking revelation or turn of events, something to add tension to the relationship.
My favorite romantic option ever though in a choice game, Devlin from Zombie Exodus, is like almost a completely opposite story⌠I mean, itâs similar but the relationship sort of progressed in the opposite order. While with Black Magic, he seems like a perfect guy at first whoâs really into you and the relationship seems so perfect, only for you to be filled with doubt about it later on⌠With Devlin, like the relationship with him starts off rather strained and there really isnât anything you can do about it⌠Which sort of leaves you feeling like youâll never get along with him. And also, the way itâs written, I feel like at first his negative traits are made a lot more prominent than his positive ones, and it really isnât until late in the story that you learn allows good qualities as a person, but the catch is, you have to give him a chance first, which I really like. And if you do, then your relationship with him gets a lot better over time. So his scenario and BMâs scenario are sorta like the same difference, the way I interpret it anyways. And obviously any sort of character development, especially with romances, are a good thing. And as characters develop, you should either find more reasons to like them, or more reasons to dislike and wonder about them. And personally I just like the whole idea of like a character starting off as seeming far from perfect, so that later on it allows you to learn all sorts of good things about who they really are and then have that rewarding feeling of knowing you made the right choice by giving them a chance or whatnot.
Iâm finding the discussions on Black Magic interesting. I did not like Black Magic on my first playthrough. Iâve grown to be fond of the character though, the more I poke at the game and reread it and wonder, why did Black Magic even hook up with you?
Despite being an extremely powerful superhero, Black Magic is defined by their looks. Thereâs rumours they slept with Diva to join that superhero group, that they slept with Madame Vice, they use sex as a distraction technique, I was wondering why there werenât rumours that they slept with a reporter for their Hero of Tomorrow award. I also do strongly wonder if they have some sort of pheromone based power or if it is just a terrible crush. Yet despite that they have the worst seduction technique Iâve ever seen. âOh no help me, Iâm burning to death, hahahaa not really, lets make with the sexy times.â And I was all WTF Black Magic, WTF??? You think thatâs acceptable? WTF??? And I desperately wanted to be able to say, âNo, letâs not make with the sexy times, instead letâs talk about why you think that thatâs at all a good idea.â
And I never understood why Black Magic was into the main character. I just didnât get it at all. I had no idea where that attraction was stemming from. While I did believe that the main character had a huge crush on Black Magic, I just didnât understand why it was reciprocated and what Black Magic was getting ou tof things. It jsut didnât feel believable to me.
I did like Devlin a lot.
I love your interpretation of things @Alleykae thatâs such a great post.
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