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@FairyGodFeather well I’m glad you could even make some sense of my post d: it was pretty late when I wrote it and I tend to be really incoherent late at night. I think autocorrect messed up a few things but yeah, y’all got the point xD

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@FairyGodfeather If I were to make a guess, I’d say that Black Magic picks the character because she’s more comfortable in a relationship where she feels in control. When she was much younger, and she can’t be that old, she was sexually abused by Madame Vice. That wasn’t just a rumor. And given Madame Vice’s trade, I wouldn’t be surprised if Vice had also pimped Black Magic to others, either for profit or simply to break Black Magic to her will… It’s also heavily implied that there’s a sexual relationship between Diva and Black Magic, a relationship that Black Magic refuses to talk about, but that Diva rather territorially warns you not to impede in a rather catty, round-about manner. And while what I’m about to say is speculation, I wouldn’t put it past Diva to have required BM to earn that spot on the Millenial Force on “the casting couch” just as our character wonders about in the story. Therefore being the senior, more experienced hero with a partner who absolutely idolizes her probably makes her feel safer and more comfortable.

So while our character is only aware that the Goddess/God of their dreams has inexplicably come down from heaven to be their lover, our character has minimal knowledge about Black Magic’s sordid past, or her reasoning and motivations. And yes, what looks too good to be true, almost certainly is, just as @Alleykae suspected. All that glitters is not gold, and I’d say that we’ve barely scratched the surface of this gold-plated character. Her underlying mettle is still very much open to question.

All that said, let me say that like you I did initially think that Black Magic’s initial reaction to the character was a bit over the top as well, probably because truth can sometimes be stranger than fiction when it is only very rarely encountered, but it’s not necessarily unrealistic depending on her background. If your earliest relationships involved being treated like a sex toy against your will, and nearly every one looks at you like a beautiful object they want to possess, and you’ve never really experienced a healthy relationship/courtship, yet you still have both a sex drive a need for companionship, then that is going to affect how you deal with and relate to others. As you said, she’s defined by her looks, and that has been going on for far longer than she’s been an extremely powerful superhero. So I doubt it’s something that she’s shaken off, or that she’ll be able to shake off in the near future. She’s a “beautiful mess”, one that will very likely give any main character who falls for her a great deal of heart-ache over the course of this series.

Regarding Devlin: Given his background, I found it a little hard to swallow that earlier in the story he intentionally behaved in a fashion that was virtually guaranteed to get him thrown to the wolves, er zombies, when he really should have known better. He’s not some clueless ghetto youth. So his initial behavior just didn’t make sense to me in light of what we learn later about him.

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@P_Tigras I am glad you liked Devlin as a LI and are willing to discuss what you like and don’t like.

In the initial meetings with Devlin, my purpose was for him to test the MC. How do you handle misogynistic or inappropriate behavior? That tells me (the story writer) a lot about you. So, I guess it wasn’t a realistic scene in the car, but more my way of testing the reader so I can figure them out via my NPC.

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Yep, that’s my take on things as well, @P_Tigras. I’m trying to avoid saying too much about things since I’ve betaed the sequel and I didn’t want to get my wires crossed in what information was given in the second game.

I think that’s actually a very valid point. Black Magic likes to be in control. The main character’s young, naive, hero-worships Black Magic, as well as actually seeming to care. The main character saves Black Magic’s life. All of those things have to be very tempting. It’s never felt like an equal relationship to me, perhaps it’s one that has the potential to grow that way but the power in it seems to completely belong to Black Magic. But given their past I can see why.

Actually thanks so much for those thoughts, there’s some things there that I hadn’t considered and I think I like Black Magic even more now. They’re a very nuanced character.

@JimD I think I’ll take my Devlin discussion over to the Zombies Exodus thread. I’ve a few things I want to say about him.

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@alleykae I totally agree with you on Black Magic. :slight_smile: As for Devlin, who isn’t my type, I find your observations rather insightful.

@JimD Since I’m as straight as an arrow, I haven’t tried Devlin out as a love interest, so I can’t really comment about that. I’ll leave that to @alleykae who clearly enjoys her character’s relationship with him a great deal. As for Devlin’s initial behavior, thanks for the explanation.

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@P_Tigras sorry, I merged my answers – the first point was meant for @alleykae. D’oh!

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@FairyGodfeather I’ve been beta-testing the sequel too, so I’ve likewise been watching my words. I’m glad that I reread the original story a few days ago as that helps me keep the two clear in my head, and provides me with evidence that I can legally talk about to support the viewpoint I presented.

Black Magic acts like a young woman who learned her relationship skills in a brothel. She’s mastered sex, and the use of sex appeal as social currency, but is awkward at romance and out of her depth when it comes to establishing a healthy relationship. The over the top come on when you first meet, the ham-handed fake damsel in distress routine, and the pricey “gifts” on your first night together are all examples of this.

@JimD No worries. Just keep writing your wonderful game. :slight_smile:

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I think romances should be a part of every character driven narrative. Its not just because most people do like them, which is why they show up in movies that have nothing to do with romance and role-playing games and such, but rather because its just natural for most living beings. There’s nothing wrong with being asexual and not into that kind of thing though, so I do think they should be completely optional, but it should be present in anything where your taking on a persona with a name and such, it does add depth and make it realistic, especially when character interplay happens.

Such as in Choice of Zombie, it seemed really artificial and hurt immersion nothing could potentially happen with your companions, especially someone like Jennifer. She felt written in such a way it’d be realistic for someone to get her involved with them, but the choice just wasn’t there and I think it really hurt the narrative.

As for Choice game romances, I really enjoyed the romance in Vampire with cloth, also the plant lady in treasure was nice. Of course Choice of Romance was overall done well, the Queen was also fun to hook up with. I did find Devlin written well, and while he is not my type, I did hope his narrative allowed for those who liked him to pursue it.

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I just wanted to add to this post that I think the romances in Slammed! are some of my favourite in choice games.

Black Magic’s also grown on me somewhat, mostly thanks to @P_Tigras insights.

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Black Magics romance was awful in my book. :v
Slammed romances are the bomb :3

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As for favorite romance for a published story, I would have to go with Heather, from @JimD 's Zombie Exodus game. She was my initial choice for a romance (despite there being plenty of others in the game itself) and I enjoyed the side-storyline with her so much that in all subsequent playthroughs I still always choose her as the LI (which either makes me a hopeless romantic or an awful, truly terrible game-tester :P)

However my absolute favorite romance would have to be with Carrie, from @AllenGies ’ Tin Star, despite the game not even being published yet. Unlike most games that only allow either one romance, or none at all, Tin Star allows up to two romances, and subsequent story-arcs for each, involving any conflict that may come of it. Though romance is not the main topic of the game, it is certainly more than just a quick blip of a scene and then gone.

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I’ve come to the realisation that I don’t like the easy romantic options.

In Choice of Romance, with three romances on the table, all of them pursuing me, I spent most of my time trying to make de Vega my best friend, playing and replaying the politic scenario until we had an alliance. I could admire his cleverness, his subtlety behind the scenes, and his dedication to his wife.

In Choice of Broadsides I wanted Villeneuve, never mind that it was a romance doomed from the start, it was all the more poignant for it. I’d just hoped for something at the end to acknowledge that we had been together and happy, if just for a short time.

In Apex Patrol I am very fond of the whole crazy lover storyline.

In Choice of the Vampire I’d have been happy with anything related to the vampires who weren’t an option.

Okay I’m difficult. I want what I can’t have. :slight_smile: I like the storylines where the relationship needs to be worked for. I much prefer to pursue as opposed to be pursued. I want obstacles in the way, ones that need to be overcome. I don’t want a happy romance handed to me, I want to have to fight to be able to achieve it. I want to have to work for it. I want someone who’s an equal, who’s part of the story.

I loved the Slammed! romances. They each had their own different obstacles. I thought they were interesting. The JJ one is my favourite, but I liked the Ecstasy one as well, especially making Ecstasy wait.

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@FairyGodfeather
I think I agree with just about everything you said there.

When it comes to any type of relationship between the player and an NPC, I think it’s important for a writer to keep in mind that the NPC can have their own free will! Their wants, likes and motivations should all play a factor when it comes to deciding how they handle the player and the player’s journey. In a well developed story, the NPCs shouldn’t feel like they’re puppets, existing only to dance for the player’s amusement. For a romantic interest, there’s just something really rewarding about feeling like the NPC “chose” my character as much as my character “chose” them. I even find it entertaining when my character gets turned down due to not being that special NPC’s “type”. At least, it’s a lot less disturbing than creepy inexplicable instant infatuation. :frowning:

It doesn’t have to take a lot of work to create the illusion of an NPC making decisions (a simple relationship stat and some *if statements can be enough), and it really adds a lot to the characters and the story. I don’t want a single option romance.

There's a really attractive person.
*choice
  #Let's Start A Romance!
  #Let's Avoid A Romance!

That’s boring. A lot of "why"s need to be filled in there before it can actually mean anything.

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@Cataphrak Very well stated, and indeed it can lead to a thought provoking path that can be pursued by the MC, either to heartbreak or maybe love, hah or something more sinister.

@FairyGodfeather This discussion is opening up new ideals that would give more depth to characters themselves. What are their likes and dislikes, their preferences, even morality. Can the MC have an effect on the NPCs point of view? Which would bring me to @Wonderboy 's point about writing a hey they are not interested, so stop chasing after them.

I kind of see it slightly different, you have to able to let the player be able to explore as much as possible without derailing from the major plot line. I can see a few characters leading the MC on, and never ever committing to a relationship, rather than friend-zoning the player. (Heh kinda meandering around a bit here) Yes the player might do a little head bashing but if it is the npc’s personality then it is fair game. Some people(NPCs) can be total flirts, but that does not mean that they would be interested in the MC now does it? It is just how they are, they could be in a totally committed relationship, and stated as such, but it is in their personality to flirt (I know people like this heh).

I see my characters as predefined with their own tastes, likes and dislikes. Even their own sexual preferences with their own needs and wants. Now if the MC ignores that it would make the NPC revalute the MC in a less favorable light, unless it is done in a way that would not offend the NPC.

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I didn’t find any of the romance interests in Choice of Romance particularly compelling. The romanceable characters all had very bland personalities, and only the most objectionable of the three had much in the way of a description. I enjoyed the game mostly for its intrigue, not its romances.

Romance was only a very small part of Choice of the Vampire, and I did not find any of the “official” romances particularly interesting. Clotho felt too easy, and I didn’t like being told how I felt about her in return. Let us the players decide how we feel. Estefania did catch my interest however, and I found myself wishing for more opportunities to interact with her. In the sequel, I was disappointed that Estefania did not reappear in a romanceable manner the way Jesse did, and I was also disappointed that things never went anywhere with Chiara.

In Heroes Rise, I found Black Magic interesting because it’s so rare that I get to role-play a dysfunctional relationship. I’ve never encountered that before in a game. Black Magic is not a “happily ever after” sort of gal, at least not without years of therapy. Instead I see her more as a “beautiful mess” and my young and naive character’s “favorite mistake” (when he looks back at it many years later). I also give the author kudos for allowing us to pick who she looked like. Nevertheless I can understand how those looking for a “happily ever after” relationship would be disappointed since there were no other relationships available in the original, and also because the relationship was forced on those who weren’t interested until that was fixed in a patch. A less dysfunctional alternative would have no doubt made quite a few players happier.

I too found the crazy lover back-story in Apex Patrol appealing. The romances in Tin Star by the same author are even better, exponentially so. And no they’re not all crazy, but they are well written.

I like Heather in ZE because she feels real to me. Mindy doesn’t resonate with me quite as well because she’s nearly too perfect. While she does have some flaws, they aren’t the sort to affect the relationship, or even the game itself, as long as she isn’t the leader. For those looking for an idealized mate who is tough in a fight and a loyal follower, she really is -perfect-. And that’s why in a game I find Heather more interesting even though in real life I’d much prefer Mindy for anything lasting.

I don’t mind being pursued by someone who has managed to pique my interest, even though I’m more accustomed to doing the pursuing. I do want my romance interest to feel real however, with motivations and interests of her own, as well as a separate life, not just an always agreeable companion or a bland cardboard cut-out who is either male or female depending on which set of pronouns are in use.

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@P_Tigras Do you still have problems with “being told how you feel” about Clotho? I thought I changed things since you commented on them.

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FG, it’s odd to me, given your stated preferences, that you like the Evelyn Ecstacy romance so much. In most of my playthroughs of Slammed, I wind up with her, because, from an RP perspective, who *wouldn’t* pursue a realtionship in the beautiful, world famous millionaire recording artist throwing inexplicably crushing on you. i just have trouble justifying any version of my PC turning her down. But, for that very reason, the romance strikes me as pretty blatant wish-fulfillment.

And honestly I go back and forth on whether that’s even a bad thing. Video games are different from non-interactive art in the sense that they almost require an element of escapism. If I’m investing enough of myself to strive against a challenge instead of just passively consuming a story, I want to see my efforts rewarded. In my own game, a part of me wants to doom all of the potential romances for Artistic Purposes, and a part of me feels like that would be a shitty thing to do to people who are playing the thing in the good faith that there’s a way to win.

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See, it depends on how you play the romance out, @Wonderboy. I think, one of the things the romance with Ecstasy has going for it is that it is you can play it as you wading in to defend/punch the guy giving Ecstasy a hard time. You defending them against accusations. When you’re paired up for the jump, you can offer support. When you find Ecstasy about to take drugs, you can talk them out of it. I think the benefits are that the friendship is built up. That you can both flirt, but nothing’s going to come of that initial flirtations, because Ecstasy is the one who turns you down. The two of you can fight together, using Ecstasy’s tactics and your own wrestling skill to get through to the final.

And when you’re at your lowest, where your dreams have been shattered, your ex-bestfriend has betrayed you, Ecstasy tracks you down. Not to start a romance with you, not to proclaim undying love, but to help you return to wrestling and fulfill your own dreams. It’s doing the same thing as you did talking Ecstasy out of taking those drugs. It’s being supportive. And the romance builds, it has its bumps, it has its problems.

Maybe it was playing with Ecstasy as male, but he didn’t come across as perfect, he was a bad wrestler with a low pain threshold who got through on the popularity vote. He was scared of heights, he almost took those drugs, and he had a history of a stream of relationships. He had his own issues, but he pushed through them.

It wasn’t a case of Black Magic (who I do also like thanks to P_Tigras) where this seemingly perfect person throws themselves at you without even knowing you. I thought the relationship was built up in a believable manner, with the two characters being supportive of eachother. But Ecstasy still had their own life, still flew off to deal with their dying father, still had their own hopes and dreams and goals.

Yeah, don’t doom all of your romances. People like to be rewarded. They like their happy ever afters. Or if the romance is doomed, telegraph that fact from early on, and even then give a chance to save it, even if it means sacrificing something unthinkable instead.

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Oops thought I’d posted this and I hadn’t. It was written before my previous post. And I thought I had more on the bottom but it got eaten. Oh well.

I think it would be possible to tell a choice story with a single romance option, however, I think it would also need to be extremely well written.

To a certain extent Paradox Factor does it extremely well. It introduces you to the love of your life, shows you a glimpse of the perfect life, and then it starts throwing obstacle after obstacle at you. The whole game is a fight to try and get that happy ever after. I found the relationship itself far too generic though to really care about it as anything other than a goal, and there was too much black and white between the two potential romantic interests. Which isn’t a criticism against the game, it’s just a thought that in the hands of a different writer, with some more grey thrown in, there’d be a romance story in there.

My favourite romances are in Slammed! The romance with Ecstasy is one that has a number of bumps along the road. He’s clearly attracted to you, you both flirt with eachother, but he will reject you regardless of that attraction, letting you know it’s the wrong time. When you’re kicked out, it’s Ecstasy that tracks you down, arranges your return, offers to be your manager. The two of you go through a lot together, and he’s always there, always being supportive. And then, just at the point of your greatest victory so far, when you have a shot of your dreams, he confesses his love. And, I turned him down, it’s the wrong time for me now, as it was the wrong time for him before. But it’s only once he’s gone that I realise how important he was, so I ask him to wait, not daring to hope that he will. And depending on things he’ll either wait, or he’ll get engaged in a whirlwind celebrity romance and break your heart. But my favourite is that he does wait, and when you say that he’s your greatest regret, he’ll arrange to meet you. He’ll leave you waiting, he’ll show up late, he’s still somewhat upset, but when finally the two end up together, it’s far better for all of the obstacles that’s been there. It’s a much better story than if the two of you had just got together when you first flirted with Ecstasy. Hooking up when you first met wouldn’t really have given the relationship anywhere to go. Where do you build from there? Where’s the story? Where’s the drama and the tension?

The Ecstasy relationship is only my second favourite in Slammed! though. My favourite is the JJ one. JJ is terribly contrary, JJ is hard work, JJ is utterly obsessed, and my character was just as obsessed about him. It’s such a terribly broken relationship, but the obsession runs right throughout the game. The game’s as much about JJ as it is about wrestling. So in the last scene, having that option to finally defeat JJ and then confess your feelings of love for him, well I liked that. I liked that unless you played the game specifically with that goal in mind chances were you wouldn’t be able to romance him. I liked that it was difficult, that he was difficult, that most of the time he wasn’t really interested, but it was rewarding in that one ending where you can be with him.

I think one of the things most choice games do is they take the first no as a “not ever, forever” as opposed to a “not right now,”

@P_Tigras I’d argue that all of the romances in Choice of Romance are highly dysfunctional. However you’ve sold me on Black Magic and they are now a character I like. Black Magic’s easy but… boy are there issues upon issues there. I think Black Magic throwing themselves at you works, if just because it’s clear they have such a broken approach to relationships. I do really want to drag Black Magic off to therapy and hope they get better.

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@Wonderboy
If a writer wants to doom all potential romances, then I don’t see a reason why they shouldn’t be able to, provided that pursuing the romance in the first place added value to the game.

The way I see things, the point of playing a game is to entertain yourself; not to win. The point of reading a story is to enjoy the journey; not to reach the end. The middle is where a player/reader spends most of their time and effort. Somehow, I suspect not many other people think about it that way, however.

I think players tend to feel a bit too entitled to their perfect win scenarios. Probably for good reason, as that’s most of what’s out there, and if someone really only wants to play to get that perfect “win”, there’s no shortage of other games out there for them. That shouldn’t stop you from doing what you feel is artistically right for your game.

Now, if you want to doom all of the romances for no good reason before anything really comes of it, that’s probably another thing altogether (although it does send a message of the futility of even trying in whatever unfair world you’ve got, so I guess there’s still some value to it).