It’s my thrad @Chibz and I say you’re not derailing since it’s discussing what’s attractive in romantic options. That’s interesting. I’ve not actually played Mass Effect. I’ve not even watched any videos. I just looked at some static images. There’s a lot they don’t convey.
I personally don’t consider there to be any romantic options in Fallout 3/NV, or TES 3/4/5, for that matter, as the ‘options’ aren’t fleshed out, they’re just there to appeal to players who want to play a game with a romance aspect. In saying that, Fallout and TES are incredible games in so many other aspects, that it doesn’t really bother me how they handled romance.
I just think that adding a well done romance in a game can only be a positive.
If we’re talking “Choice of” games of this site…
I rather liked the Villeneuve romance (being gay myself I tend to seek out games that have them), because with her it started out as two young officers across enemy lines respecting one another. Which later then became a mutual attraction then developed into love, which then became a tragic rivalry with a tragic ending. I really enjoyed it. There it was a romance that wasn’t just “there” but played a role within the narrative that to me enhanced and personalized it. It’s just a bummer when you next encounter her, the story ends and there’s not much to no mention of her. (Choice of Broadsides)
I also liked the romance with Clotho, I’m long time player of oWoD campaigns by White Wolf (especially Vampire the Masquerade campaign), and the unique and tragic romance experienced with her I rather liked. It meant something to your character pending how far you were willing to follow it through, and from that could enable your character to gain a new purpose in one form or another if you so chose. That I rather liked. (Choice of the Vampire)
Also, the romance with Feng while… it didn’t really go anywhere (much to my disappointment), I thought what little there was to experience was endearing and cute. But… unfortunately (like any of the romances within Choice of Kung Fu) it’s quite short and of no consequence.
Also, while its not really forefront within the narrative, I do like the romance that is progressively developing with Mindy in Zombie Exodus, because it adds just another–while perhaps small–it is just another dimension of flavor to the narrative. And really, if a romance isn’t going to be forefront within a narrative it should at least give a narrative at least another add dose of flavor to the game. And Mindy’s (and Heather’s to a lesser extent) does that for me personally.
Now… admittedly, while I’m kinda’ indecisive on my feelings about Apex Patrol, what I absolutely LOVE about it is the main antagonist possibly being an old flame (if the player so chooses). I friggin’ loved that, it straight up made me smile. And it is literally the only thing that gets me coming back to playing it, is playing up that former romance narrative with the main antagonist. I absolutely enjoy that sort of thing… well… much in the same regard as the romance with Villeneuve, for it makes the romance (or former romance in that case of Apex Patrol) as a more to-the-fore aspect of the narrative, it makes more meaningful and personal.
While I did really enjoy the romance with the Queen in Choice of Romance (especially when playing a conniving political manipulator), I was really hoping for a bit more with Mendosa when I went for her romance pathway. Because from the onset that romance is the one that gets placed to the forefront, but then swiftly near evaporates in comparison to that of the Queen’s once she enters the scene, and by the end the Mendosa romance really just utterly falls flat (I’m not even going to bring up the route with Torres as that is pretty much non-existent as far as “romance” goes (which in the narrative makes sense as its set up to be a marriage of convenience more than genuine romance)). But I really wish a bit more would have been done with Mendosa, because once the Queen gets involved, even when you choose Mendosa–she still gets pushed to the way side within her own romance narrative. And that’s kinda’… disenchanting.
Now while I have a HUGE amount of problems with the Heroes Rising storyline, I did enjoy the Black Magic and Jenny romances. Unfortunately, they just got over-shadowed by the many, many issues I had with the overall narrative despite my liking the setting because of its reminding me of City of Heroes and Mutants and Masterminds, and again, I did also enjoy the Black Magic and Jenny romances (even though the romance with Jenny doesn’t truly reach fruition until the very end). But… damn… there was just so much that game’s narrative I simply took so many issues with because it just made no damn sense. Which I already got into in another thread and won’t bother here.
But outside of the “Choice of” games of this site?
While it’s hard to call it “romance” and more of a “reconnecting” what is a… cold and detached… “marriage”. Delving into the relationship of the Nameless One and Deionarra in my absolute favorite RPG of all time “Planescape: Torment”… wow… my GOD… was it beautifully done and written with so much tragedy. I love it.
And for those who know how to pull it off with the female PC the Exile in KotOR2, the romance with Visas Marr is rather quite touching, especially with the restored content mod achieving one particular ending.
Dragon Age: Origins… while I love this game, I think sometimes people over-inflate it a bit much. That said, the romances were quite fun, the Alistair romance… that one was one of the unique situations I decided to follow through with because I wanted to mastermind a situation to make my character Queen, AND I still had my romance with Lelianna–and because of a mod I also had a romance with Morrigan at the same time. The Morrigan romance I found amusing more because I liked the character more than I liked the romance itself, though when not romancing her I really love how she gets choked up when she admits that while she may not always be the most… agreeable individual, she will always value your close friendship with her. But the Alistair and Lelianna (and admittedly the Zevran romance, because he’s just win and I had to check it out–out of curiosity) were just fun to play with.
But on the flip side of that coin, like how many over-inflate how good Origins was, I think people vastly over-inflate how “bad” Dragon Age 2 was. Despite its flaws I really enjoyed the narrative of Kirkwall’s deterioration… and playing a blood mage annihilating the the Templars. XD In any case, the romances… while I love Merrill as a character with all her cute and derpy-ness, I was kinda’ flippant about her romance. But Isabella, I have a soft spot for her romance, largely because I just like the concept of taming the roguish pirate queen’s heart, while the romance itself with the game was–eh, it was ok, I like it and still replay it. The Sebastian, Anders and Elf Cloud romances aren’t worth getting into… at all.
But that also brings me to Jade Empire, while Sky… eh… wasn’t interested, and with a small code alteration could romance Dawn Star, her placing herself constantly in the role of the victim with her repeated “I see dead people. D:” routine got severely old real fast. BUT that said… I really have fun with the “taming of the shrew” romance with Silk Fox (or rather “empowering” the shrew romance if going the “evil” route).
Mass Effect franchise… there is only Liara… well… I liked Garrus and Thane romances… and the last scene with Thane even got me a little choked up. But anyway, I just love the romance going from Mass Effect 1 where she was nerdy and derpy to the Mass Effect 2 (w/ the Shadow Broker DLC) where she gained a bit more severity, to Mass Effect 3 where with her severity she gained a more reclusive and insular disposition, but still got to see smatterings of the derpy nerd in Mass Effect 1. That I really, really enjoyed… Oh yeah… and the romance with Traynor is really cute and enjoyed that one, too.
And while there’s more games I can list, I think I’ll leave it there, because this is already another massive wall of text I’ve written. XD
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@Apillis Thankyou so much for your fall of text. It was a great, informative read.
The Choice of Broadsides romance is my favourite of the published Choice romances. I loved how it was about more than just the romance. I’d have liked it wrapped up at the end, or at least an acknowledgement of it. I think that’s the sort of story I really like, love amongst equals, on different sides, that rivalry and the passion which comes from it. I’m so glad that they changed the game to include the romance. It was just far more fleshed out than the others, even if it was doomed.
I think one of my issues with Clotho was I felt forced into the relationship. It’s been so long since I played the game I can’t remember the specifics. I also felt frustrated there was no way to save her. I preferred the other doomed romance with Silas though.
I haven’t played Choice of Kung Fu.
I like Mindy in Zombie Exodus. She’s a great character and I particularly enjoyed her back-story. I’m glad that you can be friends with her without romancing her. Too often in these games it’s romance or nothing. I do think the male romances could have been developed a little more, but @JimD is getting progressively better and working on fixing things.
I agree about Mendosa. I had wanted more. It wasn’t the direction the game intended to take, unfortunately. I’d have liked a sequel filled with political manipulation and scheming at court, not to stick with the Monarch but instead to cement your own fate and fortunes. I think the title Choice of Romance is a red herring and I’d have preferred if it had taken a step away from the Henry 8th inspiration.
Aha I’ll add those other games you’ve mentioned to my list of games to read on wikipedia.
Hahhaaa. Elf-Cloud. 
I seriously liked the Mendosa romance, too bad it skipped to the conclusion, I would have liked to experience true poverty and whatnot. :v
These comments are to long for my brain to understand…
All i have to say about romantic options is they have to be there or they not have to be there
@EndMaster I’d still argue that it’s open-ended enough that you could write your own whatever in between the lines; it doesn’t always need to be spelled out. Remember playing video games in the late '80s/early '90s where they don’t even really tell you the plot, it’s just “Beat up those dudes”? Who among us didn’t make up their own backstory for that kinda stuff.
Apex Patrol’s nemesis romance was my favorite in a Choice Of game. It’s largely worked into the backstory and there’s not any hokey pokey during the course of the story but the ending where they come to realize just how cracked they are when confronted with their flame was really touching. @AllenGies just does good romance in general though, if his Tin Star beta is any indication.
On a semi-related note:
I actually had an idea today about something, and I felt like bringing it up either here or in @FairyGodfeather’s “Choose Failure” thread to see what you guys think:
Unrequited romances.
I’m personally of the school of thought that if you build the entire setting, including other characters to cater to the player’s whim and choices, to serve as nothing more than a backdrop for the player’s own story, then that world feels a bit less alive. I’ve always attempted to create worlds populated by people with their own motivations and ways of doing things, which influence how they see the protagonist and respond to the protagonist. Most of the CoG’s I’ve seen either published or in development will usually give you the choice of romantic options of every major character in your age group, and then ensure that if you press the right buttons, they’ll be interested in you. The only real exceptions I can think of are CoR and CoB, and only because considerations of romantic love are secondary concerns in both.
What if there were a character in a CoG who is set up as a romantic option, as someone who people would *want* to be a romantic option, and as someone who the player could initiate a “romance” with, but who just isn’t interested?
Maybe they have a type and the protagonist isn’t it, maybe they prefer someone with a personality that complements them better, maybe they just don’t see the protagonist “in that way”, and your character, to use modern parlance, “gets friendzoned”.
The player would have the choice to persist in trying to establish a romantic relationship, as a conscious choice, but with no guarantee that the object of the character’s affections will ever reciprocate. I can see some very interesting story threads coming out of that.
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Oh! Unrequited romances are a great topic. The whole unrequited romance is such a powerful story.
I have a point I desperately want to make but that one will need to wait until the end of the month, since the first rule of beta-club is don’t speak about beta-club. I hope they don’t kick me out for even saying that. I’m only mentioning it here because I don’t want to forget.
Choice of the Vampire had two doomed romances, three if you count the one with your maker. Four if you wanted to make eyes at anyone else. “Oh Jesse, why won’t you return my interest. Alas! It is never to be! I shall just go cry on Samantha’s shoulder if the game would let me, but alas, we may be immortals but we cannot find a way to sate our loneliness with doing anything but playing cards.”
The best romance in Choice of Broadsides is the one with your rival, and again, it’s an ill-fated romance that will never be more than a season long and will probably end in someone dying and then no acknowledgement of what once passed between you.
Heroes Rise… well… Jenny totally friendzoned me, no matter how much I flirted with her. My sidekick Rain also friendzoned me, saying I was old. My feelings were hurt. And Sonja didn’t even look my way. Jury flirted, but it was never to be. Madame Vice… nope. The only one that seemed interested in reciprocating was a creep, who I didn’t even understand why they were pursuing me.
I have characters with set sexualities in the game I’m working on. So there’s a couple of characters who just won’t be interested in you at all if you’re the wrong gender, and will totally friendzone you if you’re the right one. I have a scene with a declaration of love, where your friend just gets awkward and tries to break it to you that they’re not interested in you in that way. I may actually escalate that to letting you do creepy movie type seduction stuff that won’t work.
I probably won’t gender-lock the declaration of love and the attempts to seduce though. Hmm only I just realised I have a problem, the protagonist has mind-control powers, I suppose there’s nothing to stop them from using them… Hmmm. Actually I think that’ll make for a very, very interesting moral dilemma. That’s going on my TODO list so I can puzzle it out.
Okay back on topic.
I think unrequited romances can be powerful. That the path can be satisfying, even if it’s satisfying in a bittersweet way.
There’s a book series that I read, where the set up is there is this woman who’s an Adventurer sort, and the King is in love with her. She’s in love with him as well. There was never anything improper about their relationship, but I was always sure they’d get together, and I’d be disappointed when it happened. As of the last book I read, she told him no, they both had separate duties, and she would not be his Mistress. I actually liked that.
Another of the books I really enjoyed, the protagonist falls in love at first sight with an actor. The entire book she works on saving him, dying, learning witchcraft, overcoming impossible odds to rescue this man she’s never even spoken to and who doesn’t know her. At the end of the book she succeeds, and then looks in his eyes and realises that he doesn’t love her back. He’s willing to stay, she saved his life, but she decides that she’d be better just letting him go. And she goes on to further her magical training, and he goes and does his acting thing, I think.
I like romance that doesn’t follow the typical paths.
I’ve more to say but I need a bit to try and remember what my point was.
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I think unrequited romances are going to be less fun in a personal story (like ChoiceOf games or Bioware games or whatever, where you make decisions for the protagonist). There are definitely going to be players who enjoy that story; these are probably going to overlap with players who enjoy tragic endings and players who play a game multiple times to construct a number of different stories. But unless the point of the story is the tragedy or the unrequited love, it’s not going to have enough build-up to be a satisfying conclusion for most players. It might even lead to frustration and anger if they interpret such an ending as ‘I screwed up and if I had played better I’d get what I wanted’ and then replay and replay only to discover, no, they can never get the guy.
I’m not saying Don’t Do It, I’m just saying that be wary of putting in dead ends that make a player feel like they wasted their time.
On that subject, in Neverwinter Nights 2, Bishop… There’s a failed/unrequited romance for you. Grrr. I managed to screw up the allowed romance in pursuing the disallowed one and man was I angry…
Cataphrak: This is somewhat tangential to the main thrust of this thread, but I’ve been having much the same thought regarding regarding “a world set up to cater to the player’s story”. It’s probably been the singular objection I’ve had to a lot of CoG content over the years. It make the setting begin to feel a bit more like a theme park than an actual world. On the specific subject of romances, I do find myself getting a little exasperated with games that inquire about my character’s sexual orientation at the onset, and then genderswap the whole world accordingly.
That having been said, and this goes to FG’s post as well, I do think the player is placing a certain level of trust in the author and that should be honored. There’s bothing wrong with introducing a desirable yet unavailable character (this is something I know will end up happening in my game), but if you give the player an opportunity to attempt a certain goal (romantic or otherwise) you’re going to wind up with a lot of players bashing their heads against the wall looking for the secret combination of choices that lead to success. If something’s literally impossible in your game, as a player I would prefer it be clearly marked as such.
@FairyGodfeather I know im late but I feel you when you on the whole love triangle thing that’s always lame, and that’s really fudged up if a chick gets raped and falls in love. I feel like stuff like that happens all the time in life though I seen pretty messed up relationships where I guess people in them feel ‘love’ I guess to an extent I can understand people wanting to love someone, and I guess if someone is constantly showing you how emotional they get for you good or bad. I guess they brainwash themselves into looking past it.
I see it more like they are being brainwashed because that is basically that’s how I see it. I consider abusive relationships like Stockholm syndrome, and plus I dont know how a female mind works, ive always questioned it but I guess men and women will always have a sort of instinctive role of what they are and I feel alot of women being caretakers and nurturing will find someone who may be in more need and needs someone to care for them and I guess some may even find them more ‘interesting’? Though I never understood the appeal, but then again im straight, so I guess I will never know.
I think the best way to handle unrequited love options is to not have them, unless the player chooses for that to crop up. I don’t mean actually have a love interest that the player can choose, “Oh, they won’t be interested in me” but instead to have a love interest that is only interested in the character so long as they don’t make certain other options, or that becomes uninterested in the player chooses to do or not do something.
Probably not the popular opinion, but quite frankly if you want to put in certain romances that are “locked out” due to certain gender/orientation, then you should by all means do it and not worry about if you’re pissing someone off because they couldn’t get the girl, the guy or whatever.
If anything, that’s the way the romance stuff should be handled anyway. Not every character should be able to get every NPC that comes along. This eliminates the cookie cutter gender swaps and lazy writing and forces the writer to actually write unique story lines for each love interest. Adds replay to the story as well if every choice is different and only accessible by certain characters.
If you want to add in doomed romances or a creepy unrequited stalker love then go ahead and do that too. Hell, something like that would at least be a lot more interesting than most of the typical romance stuff in games.
Like with anything, unrequited love within a narrative boils down to execution. I personally don’t mind it (and if done well, will enjoy it), and really–to me it gives the NPC a dash more character, because it reflects that they too aren’t a blank slate, but have their own thoughts and feelings and aren’t simply yet another “romance” NPC to fulfill the reader/player’s whims. However, that only works if there’s at least some form of follow through and character development with said NPC, otherwise it becomes pointless having the MC attempt to romantically engage the NPC set up to be an unrequited love. There needs to be some kind of follow through with a character growth both for the MC and the unrequited love interest.
It’s much the same with love interests in general within a narrative, there needs to be some form of character development, they also need to reflect the love interest’s own disposition, perspective, and personal agenda within the narrative. Otherwise, they’re just vacant character that’s simply there and serves no real function outside of being nothing more than prop contributing next to nothing to the on going story.
The thing that many mistake when creating love interests is failing to give the love interests their own sense of being. What I mean by that is… for example… the common thing of making all love interests bisexual or “player-sexual” for the sake of giving everyone’s personal tastes a chance at a romance arch. Personally for me, I like this but at the same time I don’t–again it boils down to execution. As someone who’s gay I rejoice when I can find a game with gay romance arch (because they’re so few despite becoming more and more common in RPGs in general), because it’s just by virtue of it being same-gender it makes it at least a little bit more relate-able for me personally. However, the problem is the typical bisexual or “player-sexual” romance set up is it’s seldom if ever personalized, you get very little of a personalized tale of such. Albeit, examples like the Villeneuve romance in Choice of Broadsides, the Heather or Mindy romances in Zombie Exodus, the nemesis former-romance arch in Apex Patrol, the Clotho romance in Choice of the Vampire, and the romance arches in Tin Star are examples where I think it was done very, very well.
Something authors shouldn’t be afraid of doing is giving their NPCs their own personal sense of romance and sense of sexuality. They don’t all need to be romantic blank slates, and it’s okay to have a straight NPC turn down or even spurn the gay MC that fancies them. Hell, that’s happened to me several times in life, and I don’t see any reason why an MC of a narrative wouldn’t experience the same–it’s just one of those sad realities of experiencing life. It can either build you up or bring you down, something for an MC to grow and develop from, hm? But at same time, how an NPC handles the advance–whether accepting or disapproving also adds new depth to the character. Perhaps they’re flattered but simply aren’t interested. Or maybe they don’t know how to handle it and become squeamish around the MC. Or it could be they’re completely repulsed by the advance and they’re perhaps even homophobic. Regardless of how it’s dealt with and in what avenue its taken whether built up, evolved, soothed, destroyed, crushed or unresolved–each adds a new dimension to the narrative and the characters themselves. Which includes the witnessing accompanying cast as well pending how far an author is willing to take it.
Really, it all boils down to perspective and just how in-depth the author wants to take their romance plots within their stories. Personally, the more the romance can be intertwined within the narrative itself–even if just superficially–the better, rather than merely having the romance angle be its own separate entity where it standing all by itself with no added value to the overall plot and development of the MC or the love interest.
I’m used to playing unrequited love in games because generally most games won’t even acknowledge that any sexuality other than heterosexual exists.
Even in the likes of Fable, which was heralded as a game where you could have same-sex relationships, the only love interest with a personality and story was female. Even in The Sims franchise, where again you could have same-sex relationships, in the Sims adventure games I played on my DS, there were no same-sex relationships.
I will admit that I absolutely love that Choice of Games means that I’m not stuck imagining up my own subtext, but instead my characters can have relationships that are actually there in the main text.
So if that’s the case why would I even want unrequited romances? I think because they can be such a powerful storytelling tool, and because what is the point of success if there is not also failure?
I think part of the issue is people see a romance/relationship as a reward, with the lover obtained at the end of it as some sort of trophy. What if the goal is to tell an interactive story, not to play a game with a win/lose mindset where not getting a lover is seen as a lose condition?
It’s such a common theme in both books and movies. Save the day, get the girl.
In the worst case scenario you go through a game collecting achievements/cards for every single girl that you seduce. Love and sex become a commodity.
One of the few Romantic Comedies that I could watch was My Best Friend’s Wedding, in which the protagonist invokes all the usual sociopathic romantic comedy tropes, and in the end she fails. That ending was great and I’m glad they didn’t go with the first ending of having her meet a guy right at the end.
I think, if the path is satisfying enough, well-written enough, then it can be a worthwhile. But it’s up to the author to provide a pay-off. To give that bittersweet ending that leaves the player satisfied even as their heart is breaking over the romance that can never be.
Lancelot and Guinevere, Romeo and Juliet, those loves would have been far better if they were unrequited.
I agree, it should also be telegraphed. The player shouldn’t end the game feeling cheated. They shouldn’t feel as if they missed an important part of the game. They should feel satisfied, even if they don’t end up getting what they wanted.
I don’t think romances should be only be able to be unlocked with an obscure set of chocies.
I like NPCs to have their own lives beyond the protagonist. I don’t like the idea of them just being interested in you and pining away if you pick someone else. I like them to have their own agency. I like them to be all different.
@Apillis I have a little more to write up on the subject of sexuality and romantic interests but it’s taking me a while to find a way to phrase it right.
@2Ton I wanted to address your comment separately so I’ll do that in another post.
@FairyGodfeather It’s okay you and I share a brain wave now, I can read your mind. Just dont read my mind it is pretty perversed.
Both men and women can end up in abusive relationships. Both men, and women, can be abusers. It’s a subject that’s a lot more complicated than you’ve written out. There’s so many complexities of why someone may end up in an abusive relationship, and I’m nowhere near qualified enough to write about it with the sensitivity and eloquence the topic deserves.
I think you do need to be very careful when drawing real life comparisons to something where it seems like your youth, and inexperience are speaking. I do mean that in the kindest possible way since it can come across as insensitive at best and I know that’s not what you intended.
“I guess men and women will always have a sort of instinctive role of what they are and I feel alot of women being caretakers and nurturing will find someone who may be in more need and needs someone to care for them and I guess some may even find them more ‘interesting’?”
That comment is gender-essentialist. There are plenty of women who are not caretakers or nurturing. There are men who are.
And I think you need to be careful about speaking about something you really don’t know much about. Generally it’s better to listen and ask questions as opposed to jump to conclusions. If you are unsure then start doing a search of the internet with topics such as “why do people end up in abusive relationships.” And read, and read, and read. It may explain things a little better to you.
I also wanted to add that it’s so frequent that men who’re abused in relationships are made to feel as if this makes them unmanly. That they should be silent about it, they can’t speak up, for fear of being laughed at at best, and people not taking them seriously. Because I got the impression from what you were saying that you thought only women ended up being in abusive relationships, and that’s just so not true.
@FairyGodfeather I was viewing women side specifically and I know what im saying, Ive seen it a dozen times, ive been in the midsts of abusive relationships since the age of 7 and lived through both perspectives just because your young doesnt mean you cant have a vast knowledge on a subject, and I used the word alot not all.
@2Ton Sorry I didn’t mean to be dismissive, and you are right. I’ve lived through it too but that’s getting a bit too personal. I thought the comments seemed a bit naive, but I shouldn’t have phrased things the way I did. Sorry. Can we go back to sharing a brain please?