Realism VS Political Correctness

Wait, are you actually saying that 10 year old boys didn’t have more upper body training than 10 year old girls (from, say, playing in ways boys were encouraged to play when I was 10) but were still somehow better able to do pushups? And this before they had any of the sex-linked differences mostly caused by hormones released during puberty? So they did it because… their skeletons supported them better somehow? I’m confused

(I was a 10 year old girl once. We were told to do modified push-ups because we were girls. Girls shouldn’t develop unsightly muscles, after all.)

Everybody here is aware that women have been dressing up as men and going to war for all of recorded history, right? I mean, we’re all on that same ground level in discussing this, yes?

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It smells like it’s getting borderline uncivil again.

@FairyGodfeather
Exactly, social implications. If you create a setting where women freely went to war, and were expected to go to war by society, armour would change, fighting styles would change, views on fitness would change, everything would change. It would be dishonest for an author to create a setting where they didn’t.

Men also used to wear corsets in the old days too. Powdered wigs aren’t much fun either. Humanity has spent much time wearing uncomfortable frippery, regardless of gender, and that’s not even getting STARTED on the type of stuff early modern combat soldiers needed to carry. (wooden-framed knapsacks, 45 kg loads without any concept of weight distribution, stupid hats, wigs, belts, cartridge boxes, a weapon as tall as you are, neck-stocks, the list goes on.) I dare say men are just as capable of enduring discomfort for the sake of traditional gender roles as women are.

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@Reaperoa I swear I only said what I said in my last paragraph as an interesting trivia to help ease the tension in here!

@Chrysoula I meant exactly what I wrote. I honestly can’t think of too many things short of playing on the monkey bars that most 10 year olds would do that would train his upper body. And there were just as many girls on the monkey bars as there were boys. If I remember correctly, the girls weren’t told to do modified push-ups, they were told to do modified push-ups if they had trouble doing regular push-ups. Now whether or not the girls were just being lazy choosing to do the modified push-ups, I don’t know, but I find it surprising that more than 10 years later, many women at my Judo dojo couldn’t do proper push-ups.

I’m not trying to be confrontational, I simply can’t understand why you think men and women has the same physical ability when it is clear they don’t? The men’s world record for the 100m sprint is a whole second faster (a world of difference). The Olympic weight-lifting records between men and women differ by between 50kg-100kg in almost every comparable weight class. Are you saying that cultural norms somehow forced these women athletes to train less hard than their male counterparts?

Not only do women have a lower level of testosterone than men, they also have to constantly expend energy to maintain their womb in preparation for conception. Do you think such a wide pelvic girdle evolved in response to athletic requirements? No, they were that way to fit a baby’s gigantic head through. In fact, if such a wide pelvic girdle had not evolved, the human species as we know it might never have existed.

I understand this may offend some people, but biologically speaking, men and women are not created equal. Just as men were biologically prevented from bearing a child, so are women born with a disadvantage in athleticism when compared to men. Does this mean women can’t overcome this disadvantage to become a great athlete and a great warrior? Heck no! But that does not preclude the fact that it is much more practical to use men in war - and warfare is nothing if not practical.

@Havenstone
As I mentioned earlier, I will freely admit that my standards are usually considered unreasonably pedantic by the vast majority of the human race. I don’t feel as if every single incongruity needs to be explained, but I do think that egregious breaks from consistency should be dealt with, even if it’s in your internal author’s notes.

That being said, GRRM’s Westerosi culture in defiance of the multi-year seasonal cycle makes a lot more sense if you think of Westerosi culture as basically having been imposed upon them by successive invaders (The Andals and the Targaryens) from places were the seasons DO work as they do here.

@Cataphrak – as I’ve said elsewhere, I appreciate any fantasy setting where the author’s thought through the social details of every change from a historical base, in much the same way that I appreciate fantasy worlds whose geography shows that the author has clearly thought through plate tectonics and climate patterns. But I’d have thought they both reflect a praiseworthy but somewhat extraordinary investment in worldbuilding, not the acceptable minimum if you don’t want to be “dishonest.”

George RR Martin is much praised for his “realism”, but of course the climate of his world makes no sense – not just in terms of what causes these multi-year summers and winters (sure, magic, whatever) but the consequences. Given such an immense change, the hydrology and land cover -> agriculture -> economics -> social structure of Westeros would be highly unlikely to mirror War of the Roses England as closely as it does. And yet most readers are happy to run with it. It’s a cool idea, it has metaphorical resonance with the alternating good kings/bad kings, it’s well within our willingness to suspend disbelief given the genre.

Most “realists” are in my observation relatively happy to accept fantasy cultures that are e.g. “imagine the Aztecs with Renaissance Italy tech and a Zen-style monastic tradition” as long as it isn’t 100% handwaved and the author includes some details that show the different historical strands playing off each other in fun and interesting ways. There’s not an insistence on explaining what process of cultural evolution could possibly have brought together such diverse elements. Yet the same readers will often talk as if changes in gender roles put an aesthetic (verging on moral) obligation on the fantasy author to thoroughly describe the implications of the change and justify any social structure that stays the same. A double standard? It’s at any rate a very different standard.

I’m reading a book right now from a friend of mine who hitchhiked from London to Kuala Lumpur, through areas of the world where I’ve spent a fair amount of time. He’s very honest about his reactions to the cultures he passes through, and many of them are “This seems wildly impractical – this seems totally inconsistent – how can people believe/practice both of these things at the same time?” But of course the necessity and consistency of practices seem obvious to people within that culture, and to people who have lived there for a while. It’s renewed my ability to suspend disbelief at the combination of the familiar and the alien in a fantasy world.

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Sorry battling a three-day migraine here and so I wasn’t as articulate as I could be. I missed out a few words in what I meant to say, while I was editing and shuffling it about.

I think I meant to say. “I’d say that in the modern day, women are more used to wearing uncomfortable clothing than men are. But that historically it switches back and forth.”

Yes, I’m aware that men did once wear high heeled shoes and corsets (and that pink was for boys and blue for girls). It’s why I mentioned it, and why I brought it up as a comparison. People could assume that men didn’t, for their toes would be squished, their feet were too large, they were not made to walk on the points of their toes, they are ridiculously impractical things, unless you’re looking for extra grip while riding a horse. We’ve actually steered away from a lot of the frippery and male-fashions of the past. Most fantasy style settings will still have the noblewomen dressed up in ornate garb, designed purely to be decorative, whereas the men will wearing their more practical gear and be unconcerned with such things.

Women did have a lot more power than history gives them credit for. The thing about history is that it was mostly written by white straight cis-men. And then it’s been edited throughout the years by white straight cis-men who have attempted to eradicate and edit out any mention of anything else. Women were likely to be less literate, less educated, and as such less likely to write things down. Their issues never interested men and so there’s far less information that can be gathered about how they lived. How many examples are there of historical accounts written by women?

Chrysoula’s answered about the press-ups with experience and more articulately than I could but I’d like to add.

Firstly, all men and women have different physical capabilities. At my school, you could bet that the most athletic girl could have beat the least athletic boy in any physical activity. You could also bet that with a few exceptions the most athletic boys would beat the most athletic girls. Were the boys always picked first and the girls always picked last when choosing teams? Even if two boys were choosing? No, because amongst the group you had a mix of skills, of physical abilities. In the middle you had a lot of mixing of both girls and boys. You can’t just look at the top. Not all men will be at the top. Not all women will be at the bottom.

In the case of olympic weightlifters, most men couldn’t lift what those women are lifting.

@hahaha01357 - I’m not sure any of us are denying the difference in average muscle mass between men and women. But I would suggest that our culture has primed us to be much too quick to use that difference as an explanation/justification. For example, using it to explain the different performance of pre-pubescent kids who haven’t yet had their big dose of natural testosterone. Or using it to explain why armies are male-only… when there are many historical examples of women getting into armies as long as they could pass as male, and when (as you say) there’s no physical reason why women with above-average strength can’t be great athletes and warriors.

War isn’t wrestling; it isn’t won by armies of Conans. In most historical contexts, warfare depends on weapons wielded by large numbers of underfed commoners. People of average or less physical strength could and did win wars through numbers or use of tech like pikes and bows.

One kind of warfare where physical bulk offers a huge advantage is the “Trojan War” style where each army takes it in turns to send out its strongest champions to duel one-on-one, using weapons that reward brute strength. But this is hardly an example of warfare being “nothing if not practical”. It requires others to hold back even when there would be an advantage to piling in, and as the Greek tradition suggests, it’s highly vulnerable to a coward with a bow.

Which brings me to the main point: war is a mix of practical and cultural considerations like everything else. The way armies are constituted, trained, and operate has a huge amount to do with their home culture, in peacetime as well as war. It takes a pretty rare cultural/political situation for the limits on war to be eroded and for it to become a purely logistical/tactical exercise in efficient attrition.

Modern Westerners, especially Americans, have a culture that prizes pragmatism (especially technological pragmatism) very highly; we’re fond of cautionary tales about warrior cultures that fell apart because they prized cultural elements like “honor” above practical ones and so didn’t update their tech/tactics quickly enough. But sometimes the real “practicalities” of war have much more to do with culture and politics, and not with who has the most muscle, tech, or ruthlessness. As the example I’ve seen closest up, the Afghan mujahidin beat back the Russians and are holding us in a stalemate primarily (though of course not exclusively) because of cultural and political factors.

In short: I’d suggest the reason why armies tend to be all-male is clearly cultural as much as practical, even in an era when musculature was more important in weapon-wielding. The practicalities of a mixed-sex army would not be a decisive factor in a non-patriarchal society.

@Cataphrak: I’m an admirer of pedantry, as long as it’s consistent. It’s not particularly kind for self-confessed pedants to call people “dishonest” for not reaching their rather exceptional standards, though.

@Havenstone
No, it probably isn’t very nice at all, but I’ve spent a lot of years worldbuilding and the egregious lapses in consistency tend to bug me a great deal. “Dishonest” is probably a bit harsh, but I suppose that would only apply to people who insist that changing something deeply ingrained in human culture like gender relations would change nothing else.

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@Havenstone Social interaction is intrinsic to any novel. It’s hard to imagine a novel without social interaction. I suppose it’s technically possible to write such a beast, but I doubt it would sell well. On the other hand it’s easily possible to write a novel that makes no mention of the weather. You’re comparing something of primary importance in any novel to something that is ancillary. So of course a discrepancy in the latter is more easily overlooked than a discrepancy in the former.

@Chrysoula I agree with you that at the age of 10 years old, boys are not stronger than girls. Anyone who has seen the median strength curves is aware that at around age 12 girls often exceed boys in upper body strength. Once boys hit puberty however that changes drastically.

Most militaries that allow women into combat position have more rigorous physical fitness standards for men than women. This includes the US Marine Corps. Interestingly enough, the Marine Corps is currently attempting to find a female officer who can pass its highly demanding Infantry Officer’s Course without dropping the standards for women below what they are for men, and is having a tough time doing so.

I’m certain they’ll eventually find some women who can meet the same standards that 75% of male marine officers who sign up for the course can meet, but it doesn’t appear to be something that most women can aspire to without very serious preparation that’s well beyond what is required of current female Marines.

@Cataphrak, You’d probably agree that there is no “human culture,” just cultures. And as my hitchhiking friend found, an outsider looking at gender relations in a different culture can struggle to process the combination of things which are tremendously different and – in some ways more shocking – the things which basically go on as “normal.”

Gender relations in Afghanistan are grounded in a very strong view on the destructive power of sex. Sexual attraction (and in particular, the robust sex drives of women) is seen to lead naturally and inevitably to rivalry, violence, and social breakdown. Because it’s such an enormously powerful force, it requires strong social systems to contain it, with strict separation between men and women in their respective public and private spheres. It also makes sex and gender inescapable to a much greater extent than in the West - the world is broken down much more clearly and extensively into the places and roles accessible to one sex and not the other. It’s hard for anyone growing up in that world to conceive of a different set of gender relations without, essentially, rewriting how the world works from the ground up.

Most Westerners see the Afghan construction of sex and gender as shockingly excessive, going to massive lengths to avoid problems which the West either doesn’t see as particularly problematic or is happy to manage in everyday social life. The practicalities of gender are far less foregrounded here than in Afghanistan. It’s plausible to me that in a more gender-egalitarian culture than the contemporary West, most of the questions that immediately occur to us as huge practical obstacles would be managed in a similar everyday fashion… and could fade into the background of the story rather than requiring foregrounding and extensive explanation by the author.

A setting like the one @Chrysoula was playing with earlier, which foregrounds quite a lot of gender stuff, is fun. But I don’t see why that level of detail should be required for gender any more than for religion – something else “deeply ingrained” in human cultures, but often handwaved, cavalierly altered, or omitted entirely from games without causing a “realist” ruckus.

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@Havenstone
Something like gender relations or religion wouldn’t need to be exposited in detail, even if it’s drastically different from ours. Conservation of detail still applies. If I had to exposit all the stuff I have for SoI, I’d be somewhere around Chapter 3 right now. All I’m asking is that the author consider this stuff when they’re creating a new setting, even if it’s just to justify a “nonsensical” social construct and have it on hand if a need to mention it is ever needed. That’s what I’m doing with gender relations and it’s what I’m doing with religion too.

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@Havenstone The level of realist ruckus is proportional to the percentage of the reader population that recognizes (or believes) that the depiction is unrealistic. And gender issues tend to be among the most obvious.

@P_Tigras: I hear your point, and agree that social interactions are vital to enjoying a book. I recognize the particular medieval social setting that George RR Martin is writing in, and think it implausible that a feudal European culture would come to exist on (or be successfully imported onto) a continent with the wildly different climate his seasons imply. He simply hasn’t followed through the implications for agriculture and the socio-economic relations that follow from it. But I can still recognize the feudal social interactions taking place there perfectly well, and find them gripping and immersive even when they center on the implausible political and economic dynamics of the world (and yes, occasionally the weather).

Similarly, I can recognize the social setting in gender-egalitarian fantasies – one in which gender relations and the breadth of roles available to both sexes are rather more like modern ones than historical parallels. Those interactions are hardly inhuman or incomprehensible, and I can enjoy them without requiring the author to justify in depth the combination of social, geographical, and technological/magical history that could have got us here.

Most characters in fantasy also have rather modern senses of humor, ideas about how to express themselves sincerely, etc. which fundamentally affects how their social interactions are written. I’m able to implicitly accept that those sensibilities might have come about at an earlier period than they did in Earth history… and on the evidence, most “realists” are comfortable with that, too. But not when it involves gender.

The modern fantasy genre began with an unconsolidated mash-up of historical epochs. The hobbits are rural Englanders who are technologically pre-industrial but culturally and linguistically early modern… and suddenly they find themselves in a Beowulfian world, where everybody talks and thinks in a very different style. It’s a terrific book largely because of that contrast, and I think its social interactions would be weakened rather than strengthened by an attempt by Tolkien to explain the incongruity.

Edit: While there’s no doubt something to “the percentage of the reader population that recognizes (or believes) that the depiction is unrealistic,” it still seems to me that there remains a difference in the percentage that cares – that on many if not most other aspects of the world, even if people believe it doesn’t reflect the relevant Earth parallels, they’re much happier to accept it.

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I find it tiring to justify the existence of anyone who is a non-white, non-straight, disabled, non-cis-male character in a fantasy world. That there’s such an extra burden of justification expected of those sorts of stories. That this required justification is used as an excuse for erasure and any stories that deviate are called unrealistic.

I don’t think wanting stories that acknowledge the existence of others is being politically correct. Those words politically correct are often thrown about as if they’re insults. It’s tiring to have “it’s not realistic” said whenever something that deviates from the white straight cis-male paradigm. It’s boring to have to justify over and over again the existence of anyone else as a protagonist. There’s a burden of proof and backstory pushed onto the author which just isn’t expected in the case of your white straight cismale protagonist.

I read for escapism. If I want to experience prejudice I can just step outside my front door and there it is. There’s inequality all around.

If an author can create a world which magic and fantastic creatures and strange gods and monsters and all sorts of weird and wonderful things happen, why can’t equality just be thrown in there without needing to be justified? Why does every story with a female protagonist need to justify her existence as female, why must every story with a trans character have to delve into how deeply tortured by everything, why must every story with a gay man have to have him angst over his sexuality and tackle issues of coming out.

Why can’t they just get to kick butt without going into excruciating detail of why they get the privilege to do so?

I read discussions like this and sometimes it reads to me as “we get to have exciting fun things but you can’t unless you bend over backwards and explain everything.” It’s yet another barrier of exclusion that’s put up.

Now, I do prefer my sci-fi to be soft-sci-fi focusing on the social sciences as opposed to lots of descriptions of technology. I find the thought exercises presented by them can be absolutely fascinating, challenging in fact. I find that complex world-building where the author is intent on providing a detailed tour of their fantasy world to be boring. I’m more interested in characters and what happens to them.

Sometimes I just like escapism.

@Havenstone "most of the questions that immediately occur to us as huge practical obstacles would be managed in a similar everyday fashion… and could fade into the background of the story rather than requiring foregrounding and extensive explanation by the author. "

I like that quote. I agree.

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@Havenstone I personally dislike it when characters that are modernist in outlook are produced by societies that are anything but modern without any explanation of how they attained those very modernist view points. This grates on me, but many readers don’t seem to recognize the disconnect much of the time because the characters don’t diverge from what they’re personally used to seeing and hearing. Not everyone who cries realism is in truth a realist. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction, and writing a realistic depiction of something like torture will likely get attacked far more harshly than the usual softball, somewhat corny depiction people have grown accustomed to, and thus far more comfortable with in sci-fi.

@FairyGodfeather
Justify? Who says you need to? Most fantasy is based on Late Medieval Western Europe, that isn’t a necessity. There’s nothing stopping you from building your own setting from basic building blocks in a way which allows non-caucasian, LGBT and disabled characters of any gender to pick up traditional hero roles.

What I am asking is that culture and characters be consistent. Medieval European Fantasy is based on a culture where gender roles were set pretty firmly outside of the peasantry and artisan classes. Any character built from a stock Medieval European setting should be expected to have the attitudes and traits to reflect it. (Commoners are unfit to rule. We must obey the king because God appointed him. Bathing regularly is a sign of demon worship, water is deadly, reading is for monks etc.) How jarring would it be for a character to stab a dying person and have that restore said dying person’s health? That’s the kind of disconnect I’m talking about here: characters are the products of their societies.

If you want to make an escapist power fantasy where you can play any race, gender, sexual orientation or religion you want, don’t take take a heavily prejudiced, immensely intolerant baseline and make the inconsistency conform by author fiat. MAKE a setting which lets you do that. Nothing is stopping you.

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@Cataphrak, we’re definitely not writing for the same genre if you prefer your fantasy to hew so closely to a historical template that “bathing is bad” has to be the default assumption for any setting that uses the language and tropes of late medieval western Europe. You really see that as a necessary rather than contingent part of the package?

There were a lot of attitudes and traits out there in the medieval era, and I’d suggest it’s a mistake to draw up a restrictive shortlist and insist that anything departing from it is unrealistic. Take the jarringly egalitarian attitude, “From the beginning all men by nature were created alike, and our bondage or servitude came in by the unjust oppression of naughty men.” That’s John Ball, from his late-1300s sermon which starts, “When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman…” And while the peasants who agreed with him didn’t write the history books, it’s clear that this was a popular and widespread view; it required significant and repeated effort (military and propagandistic) to snuff out. Societies have multiple streams, and any time we talk about “the” medieval view of kings or commoners or women, we need to keep that fully and humbly in our minds.

Regardless, once we’re talking about fantasies whose primary goal is inclusion/escapism, it seems obvious that many of the most satisfying ones will come precisely by taking immensely intolerant baselines and writing the groups who were excluded into them as fully active players. And there’s nothing stopping people from writing those, either.

@P_Tigras, “Not everyone who cries realism is in truth a realist” – yes, I agree. And with all respect to the committed, consistent realists, I don’t think that the outcry about implausible gender relations ultimately boils down to the proportion of readers who are realists.

What I suspect many people prioritize in their medieval escapism is the sense of getting away from modernity (another big explicit theme in Tolkien, as it happens). So they emphasize the least modern bits, distorting (among other things) the actual diversity of gender roles in the medieval period. They resist fantasy extrapolations from the medieval template that play up the elements more akin to the modern mindset, even when they’re perfectly happy with extrapolations that head in other, historically inexplicable directions.

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@Havenstone I think we have a difference in the way we are thinking about this question. I’m trying to explain how the male-dominated military culture came about while you’re trying to justify why it’s fine for women to be in the military and why women can and have made just as capable warriors. I don’t deny that fact, but what makes it so problematic is those cultural reasons you cited as for women’s exclusion from the military are mired in the history of human development.

Allow me to rephrase my argument in another way. Human culture developed alongside evolution and are influenced greatly by our biology. Sexual dimorphism happened for a reason. For mammals like us, it is for one partner to be able to better defend the other while she is with child. When our diets changed to include meat, it is the bigger and stronger among us that are able to obtain the most meat - and that meant males. Subsequent devision of labor meant that men are hunters while women are gatherers. To these ancient people, there is no sexual bigotry at work here. They are simply using what’s best available to them at the time. Over time though, a tradition of being hunters meant that when it came time to fight other people, it is the men who are best equipped and trained to do so. Again, these people don’t have the luxuries to specifically train people for the purpose of war, they are simply using what’s available to them. But when it came time for the need and development of warriors, guess which sex is most suited for the task?

What I’m arguing here is that the development of a men-dominated warrior culture is not a coincidence. When one sex has dominated a certain task for so long, it becomes entrenched in culture and tradition. I mentioned guns previously as an equalizer for men and women on the battlefield and many female soldiers performed admirably on the battlefields of the 20th century. Nevertheless, there are still countries around the world tha refuse to allow women in their military. This is another instance of tradition influencing policy. However, this came about only through precedents set about by biology. What I wanted to point out is that tradition and culture is really only half of the equation when it comes to why the military is so dominated by men.

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