Realism VS Political Correctness

General
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I’d start linking to images of plate armour with cod-pieces but I have a feeling that that would get me banned. Needless to say it was a concern, they did exist, but that people generally do not see the need to recreate armour with those details. That you’ll rarely find a fantasy book or a game which goes into elaborate detail in regard to men’s codpieces and how the armour and support was neccessary as well as an intimidation tactic for the enemy. It’s either taken for granted or it’s considered completely unimportant. If you want a laugh feel free to do an image search, some of those pieces of armour are utterly ridiculous.

Yet breasts are another matter, somehow they are meant to render women as incapable of being warriors? They are meant to be given the proper consideration if you are to ever write a story with female warriors?

I say both subjects are completely unimportant. You might as well go into detail about how each of the sexes must pee in the wilds and demand that those specifics are taken into consideration when writing a story. But as we know few stories actually concern themselves with such biological needs. It’s not important, unless you’re writing a Sims based game where you must balance hunger with bladder and hygeine.

@hahaha01357 I’m not flaming. Sorry if it’s interpretted that way. I have a strange, quirky sense of humour to be honest. And I wanted to try and illustrate a point. I thought we were all being rather civil.

I’m not sure why you brought up rape, and I won’t link to the article I have bookmarked which details how men are effected by rape in warzones. It’s not just a problem for women, however I think those sort of discussions are completely inappropriate for here. If anyone is interested I can share the link but it’s extremely harrowing reading.

Lice was also a problem, especially in areas of poor hygeine like warzones but they’re again not something that’s important. That degree of gritty realism is just unpleasant. Infections were also problem.

Who wants to play a game where all of those things are taken into consideration?

I’m arguing that both statements are of a similar level of ridiculousness. That the idea that if such depth must be provided for including female warriors, then the same should also be true for male warriors. Why take anything for granted?

@Rvallant Start by googling images of SCA female fighters. Although if you actually research things that will be a vast improvement to people who just have their women warriors fighting in chainmail bikinis. I actually had a link to a very good article on making armour for women. Aha found a different one which seems good since it’s written by an actual armourer. http://madartlab.com/2011/12/14/fantasy-armor-and-lady-bits/ (That link should be work-safe, there’s no lady bits under it just pictures of women in armour. You probably don’t want to click on the link to the guy in a bikini that’s there though.) The gist of it is though that with plate armour you’ve so much padding underneath the actual armour that male or female doesn’t matter as much as you might expect.

I’ll let you do your own research on periods. There’s no way that I’m typing that into a search engine since there’s no way I’m actually ever writing about them. Ever. Never ever.

I’m not actually saying that your level of research is a bad thing, RVallant. Just do the research fairly, across the board. If you’re the sort of person that enjoys making things realistic then you should.

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@FairyGodFeather
No no no. I’m not saying they aren’t a problem. I’m saying they are a problem specifically because men are fighting the wars. Your tone in your last response suggested that they are ridiculous things to be considered when crafting your world. However, when we consider these problem’s impact on our culture, it is actually quite important to consider them when crafting your world. Similarly, when we consider a culture of women warriors, we must also consider how their strengths and weaknesses as warriors will affect said culture. More importantly, if a woman’s ability as a warrior affects her evolutionary fitness, how will that affect what women look like in this world? How will it change what men find attractive in women? By inserting women into a more assertive, militaristic role, we’ve thus created a huge change in political and social dynamics that must be addressed in your world.

That said, intense scrutiny can tear apart any fictional world (even Middle Earth and Westeros). The point is, the readers expect a certain degree of suspension of disbelief when exploring a fantasy setting. When such a reader come from a culture as progressive as our own when it comes to gender-equality, one can expect such a reader to be comfortable with a more gender-equal setting.

Also, there’s no such thing as lice that infest specifically beards, silly! Lice in beards are head lice or body lice that happened to have found a good home there.

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Hm… I’m going to keep track of how many times I bring up biology and evolution when I’m in a serious discussion. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Just popping in to say that while I really want to dig in more to the proposal I put together above (with both Fairy Godfeather AND Cataphrak and even others, since I imagine it as a low-magic setting without even magical birth control) but I want to so badly it’s actually interfering with other stuff I need to get done. So… we’ll see if I can catch up on my other work.

(But do keep in mind here that precedent and culture is just as important as evolution and biology, so coming up with cultural reasons for more equality can trump a lot of evolutionary concerns.)

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Oh, this should be fun! I’d like to provide clever insight, like some already did, but I have no time; there’s basically a civil war in my country, you see. However, I can leave something that could pretty much summarise my opinion on the matter: Take history with a grain of salt, it was written by heterosexual, cisgender, white males for the most part and you know what that means.

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@FairyGodfeather - I’ve looked, it’s nice, thanks for the links. One thing though, while the codpiece point is true, not all armour types need it. AFAIK there’s no obvious showing of it on Eastern (Samurai) armour pre-1500 where the helmets were the centrepieces of the armour-set.

Anyway as I said I did look into it before for my own story, specifically the uses of plate and chainmail. =)

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@VoodooDolly
That those writers have an unhealthy obsession with cats? Meow?

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@FairyGodfeather
Those particular questions were a bit pedantic, I admit (though I want to see the female equivalent of Maximilian I’s hilarious codpiece). That being said, issues of genitalia and protection *are* touched upon in certain works of military (though usually sci-fi) fiction, the common one being a suit of armour so tightly tailored that the (male) wearer has to be asked whether they “dress” to the left or right.

That being said: yes. the groin is a very obvious weakness when fighting in armour, seeing as a well-placed cut could lead to death from blood loss in minutes. Beard lice, frozen beards and beards to warm faces are all important aspects of military life, as are the provision of shaving kits (standard-issue in a soldier’s kit), or for officers, batmen to shave their august faces for them. As for “tension” on campaign, that is literally one of the most important things to know about in a medieval or early modern army. Every combat soldier might be accompanied by two or three servants, camp followers and “camp followers”. The “three day rule” (If a city does not surrender when surrender is first offered, the besieging troops get three days of rape, murder and looting once they break in) is an important menace to those trapped inside a city, and a significant incentive for those trying to fight their way in. These factors may seem “ridiculous” to you, but they’re quite important to me and other writers of military fiction stories.

I suppose I’m writing this from the perspective of a military fiction writer, where all the monotonous details of war exist for flavour: things like field kitchens, sentry posts, tent construction, uniform insignia, and (yes) where people piss or shit are serious business, especially in settings where armies do not understand hygiene enough to dig specialized latrine pits. Yes, it is important that women have periods in a time where modern feminine hygiene doesn’t exist or the fact that chest-bindings might come in general-issue uniforms in a time before bras, just like it’s important to know that codpieces in clothing weren’t discrete pieces of cloth, but attached to hose. Sabres of Infinity has some of that written in: disease, cold, hunger and endless make-work are integral parts of an army on campaign, (digging latrine pits, less so: that’s infantry work) and I feel it would be dishonest not to at least give them a mention. Maybe it’s because I want everything in my setting to make sense, down to the tiniest detail.

That being said, I don’t take anything for granted. I *do* organize everything from the tiniest detail, from mobilization timelines to jacket facings, to regimental mottoes to having gender-equal societies be gender-equal, all the way down to the connotations of their racial slurs.

Maybe that’s just me, but that’s the standard I hold myself to. Do I hold others to the same standard? Only when they make egregious mistakes (chainmail bikinis come to mind. I have plenty of women in my life, and I will bet good money that every one of them could fit into a suit of full plate just fine) or something like that.

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@FairyGodfeather @hahaha01357 One warning to both of you to remain civil, polite and on point. I’m not going to ask again.

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I would like to apologise to anyone that I offended. I am sorry I did not mean to do so. I did not realise how my post would be construed.

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@Fairy

I think it was just a heads up more than anything else

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Also, on the topic of groin shots: yes, that is usually considered dirty fighting, and dirty fighting is something which common soldiers are masters of. Medieval and renaissance fechtbuchs will recommend stabbing an opponent in the face, attacks to the groin and wresting your opponent to the ground so you can beat him to death with the pommel of your sword.

A melee without dirty fighting, to me, either implies incompetence on the side of both armies, or a romanticized view of such combats by the author.

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@Reaperoa I wasn’t aware that I was being unpolite or uncivil. Can you point me toward the post that warranted such a warning so I may refrain from posting similar content?

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@Reaperoa Ah, I brought up rape as an example of what can result from an army of people with high sex-drives (as was brought up by @FairyGodFeather). I used it specifically because it was such a difficult subject to bring more attention to my point. But seeing from your own and @FairyGodFeather 's responses, it obviously hasn’t been used correctly. I will definitely be more aware in the future.

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@hahaha01357 It was brought up spontaneously and without reference, so I can see why @Reaperoa would have thought it to be the derailing of a thread.

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@Drazen Yes, I understand. Like I said, I will definitely be more aware in the future.

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@Fairygodfeather

I’ve never LARPed myself, but I have a weakness for geeky women, and an ex used to drag me to renn-fests and LARP events. She tried wearing armor once; at a US C cup, she complained of chest pressure. She tried a longsword dueling event; the swords were too heavy for her to wield one-handed. I’ll add that using rapiers in a fencing duel, she kicked my a-- (and I used to fence epees in middle school!), but the rest is evidence enough for me that it would take special equipment for women to practically play the role of a medeival warrior.

Swords and armor are heavy. A knight could die from being dehorsed on-field and trapped in his armor. Women have less strength, especially upperbody; it’s psychiological fact, not discrimination.

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@ADNox

There was a guy in my gaming group who was the typical stereotype of a gamer, he looked like comic-book guy from the Simpsons. You can bet that he had problems fitting into any armour at all and any he did put on would be similarly constricting (but in different places). Could he have swung a sword? Probably. Could he have engaged in strenuous physical activity such as fighting without being seriously out of breath? Probably not. Could he beat my sister while arm-wrestling? No. Is one overweight, out-of-shape gamer an example of how men shouldn’t fight or wear armour? Definitely not!

So you have an example of a woman who had never worn armour before and never wielded a sword before? Who put on armour of an unknown size, once, which she was unused to wearing and found it uncomfortable? Not so uncomfortable that she couldn’t breathe and move in it but enough that she commented to her boyfriend?

I’m going to say that your argument actually means very little.

I would imagine that many women (and men) when first wearing a corset, or a girdle, would find that those are rather constricting and create pressure. Yet this is not evidence that no one can wear those garments.

I would think that women are far more used to wearing uncomfortable clothing than men are. They get used to it. If they didn’t then why would anyone wear high-heels? Could you put on a pair of high-heels and then run in them? Is that evidence that men did or did not wear high heeled shoes in the past?

Although when it comes down to it boobs squashed or sword in the guts? Hmmm which option would you take? Women and men can survive having their breasts squashed flat. There’s also a large number of newspapers which claim that breast sizes are getting larger. I’ve not researched any of that though so no idea if it’s true or not.

As for wielding a sword, well clearly you have three options. Tailor the weapon to fit the woman and give her a lighter blade if she can’t use a heavy one. Let her use that long-sword two handed. Or have that woman engage in physical activities that increase her upper body strength, like push-ups, lifting weights, and perhaps practicing swinging around a weighted weapon more than once.

If you had a country with a large number of female warriors then they would adapt. For a start you would have women who are used to wearing armour and who are not used to wearing perfectly sized bras and comfortable clothing. Armour could be made to fit them, and I’m not suggesting chainmail bikinis, or specially moulded armoured boobs. I’m suggesting simple things like just being a better fit.

So, men could die by falling off their horse in armour? And if a woman was wearing armour that could happen to her too? What is the point there? I don’t understand.

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@FairyGodFeather I remember back in gym class in elementary school, all the girls would do what’s called a “modified push-up” because barely any of them can do a regular push-up. Does this mean the boys had more upper body training than did the girls? Of course not, the kids are barely 10. The point I’m making is that men and women are biologically different and you shouldn’t expect them to be able to do everything with the same ability. That human civilization everywhere has a male dominated military isn’t a coincidence. Finess requires training; brute force requires less. Brute force requirs strength and strength requires muscles. It just so happens that it is much easier to build muscles when you have more testosterone circulating through your body.

Social and cultural practices can only do so much in the face of practicality. Is it more worth it to wait 6months to train a corp of female warriors or is it better to simply draft a Corp of men who may do just as well with maybe a couple of weeks training? Is it wise to buy equipment to outfit 2 sexes rather than standardizing along one sex? It is questions like these that makes the prospect of a medieval female warrior culture very unlikely.

Guns though, changes a lot of things. It isn’t very heavy and it eliminates a lot of the hand-to-hand fighting that dominates pre-modern warfare. If something can achive a similar effect in a fantasy world, with the right cultural background, warrior women are a definite possibility.

As an aside, did you know that high heels originated among medieval noblemen as a way to differentiate themselves from the lower classes? The reason behind them was that only those who didn’t have to walk and work all the time could possibly wear such uncomfotable shoes. As the lower classes grew more afluent, however, they too began adapting it. When the nobles saw that, they began abandoning the practice and soon after it died out. Do you know what brought it back? Porn.

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As I understand it, the biggest difference between men and women in terms of physical strength is that, A, women generally have a much higher fat-to-muscle ratio than women, and B, have a much higher minimum safe percentage of fat before it starts causing health problems. A woman who was built like Arnold Schwarzenegger would likely suffer health problems on account of not having enough body fat.

So for realistic women warriors, first accept that you won’t get Conan physique or the very highest levels of physical strength without health problems. Second, the setting will have to be far less sexist than modern Earth, in that women are not automatically judged first on their value as sex objects; otherwise, female warriors will be highly unusual. As Chrysoula pointed out, female fitness training in the modern world contains the implicit assumption that the woman is trying to develop an attractive figure along with maintaining personal health. With even your standard level of fantasy sexism, the ISO-standard elven love interest simply doesn’t have the physique to use either sword-and-board or a longbow. (Of course, elves don’t necessarily need muscles if they’ve got magic, but that’s something that the writer should at least think about.)

Incidentally, this’ll also mean that the game’s description of women warriors won’t be at all fanservicey (look at how GRR Martin describes Brienne of Tarth). While this is a good thing in my mind, there are certain nameless individuals on this forum (and elsewhere) who will hate on any woman who isn’t sexy enough for them. Just something for a writer to be prepared for.

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