Hmmmm I like it! If father died when was still the womb at the age of twenty-nine. He Overworked himself to death trying settled to build there home. They where all fresh off the Scot-Irish, His Mother point of view would great! Going to Fantastic way of playing through her there least a portion of the game. You have to manage living on your own and with your family and raising your children and in turn by raising Andrew you can instill traits and to him. That will affect his character and perspective when eventually play as him. The first portion of the game could be a resource management and raising simulator on the early American frontier. It would to be a great way to get an emotional attachment to the characters.
This might deserve its own thread, butā¦
Grounded, semi-realistic stories generally seem more authentic when the author is writing what the author knows. The little touches the author inserts based on the authorās own experiences create that feeling of authenticity. An American author might very well be able to write a story based on Japan, but if the setting is truly important to the story, then I would assume hundreds, perhaps thousands, of hours of research would be necessary to make the story ring true to Japanese readers. And even then, some would criticize the American writer of some kind of ācultural appropriation.ā It can be a no-win situation.
Happily, there are companies like CoG that offer VERY low barriers to folks who want to write stories that might bring their unique viewpoints, settings, etc., into the mix.
I would welcome some stories with historical settings, even if the subject matter isnāt pleasant, as long as real choices were offered. Yes, Jackson is a controversial figure, but conflicted and greatly flawed characters are the bread and butter of fiction.
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Speaking as a history major and a biracial person, I do not feel comfortable with this game, because it feels as if a real manās life and frankly terrible decisions are now simply āflavor.ā It romanticizes a (to put it mildly) flawed man who did things that many Americans these days donāt realize were horrific. He went against Supreme Court orders purely because he so strongly felt indigenous peoples were less deserving of humanity, and I do not feel comfortable making it into a āchoiceā for people. It just feels like youāre belittling the actual genocide of real people. I donāt think itās moral and I think it would be horrific to try and make profit off of this.
Itās one thing to use real horrors as inspiration for a fictional setting. Itās another to fictionalize and romanticize a real monster.
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Removal policy was a common policy of America sadly since it conception. We Literally had the American Legion set up to combat that them. At the time it wasnāt seen as heinous until more recently, and he pushed the order but heās the one that didnāt execute he was out of office by that point. Iām not going to back away from the unsavory aspects. At same time to I want to know why. Two of his children was full blood creek the one that survived to there teens he was trying to send the West Point sadly it was impossible at time. In some sources that I read it was his mother that plant this point view. He grew up an environment where it was common if you live too deep into the Wilderness you may just die from an Indian raid because sadly not all the tribes are peaceful. And sadly during this time. Many of the indigenous tribes which were pretty brutal with each other at times where are used as proxies by the Spanish and the British by supplying them with arms to go and stop American interest in spreading Westward. Of the origin and the reason behind The Creeks civil war which is very complex ti explained. But the gist is how America got involved was a militant Branch known as the Reds Sticks of the creek Confederacy during the Civil War slaughtered soldiers and civilians at a fort and Iām talking about quite few women and children. So imagine how terrorism is view today we have this fear of Islam. Back that nothing will go and get Americans fire going more than seeing slaugher women and children especially by the native American. And Jackson did witness that and I honestly donāt know if he ever lost that animosity. Jackson was known for holding onto grudges. Again Iām theorizing here but I can bet you money he had a deep-seated grudge against the Cherokee what for not policing the red sticks so in turn not stopping the massacre. I can see him blaming them for that. It was indeed wrong and heinous but if he was holding a grudge against them for years at least it makes sense why he attacked them so vindictively.
Again the game will take place decides before these events. If I indeed right this this current game going to end when he turns twenty-one. From discussion c I had earlier I may just have a huge portion of the first half of the game you just raising him as his mother and you can have a free hand where the family moves around and go and into his development.
I agree that past horrors and injustices shouldnāt be romanticized or justified. At the same time, the monsters of history were human, and if we focus so much on the monstrosity that we lose sight of the humanity, we wonāt properly understand our history, with all the dangers that entails.
So Iād be interested in a historical novel, interactive or not, that explored the choices of a character like Jacksonā¦ especially as weāre about to embark on a US Presidency that has more resonances with Jackson than with almost any other presidency from his time to ours.
The question of whether interactive fiction is inherently belittling ā whether making Jacksonās genocidal decisions into a choice for a āplayerā is fundamentally less serious than writing historical fiction about those decisions ā is an interesting one. I can easily imagine it being handled in a belittling way, and also being handled in an extraordinarily moving and enlightening way (as for example I think Nabokovās first-person pedophile narrator in Lolita is).
@Rogar, I think you ought to write a chunk of it if itās what youāre passionate about writing. Pretty much anything you want to write will find a readership here ā as well as people to challenge you on how youāre treating the horrors of the era. If youāre up for both kinds of feedback, dive inā¦
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āat the time it wasnāt seen as heinousā A good portion of his troops left because of his actions against the Indians, even though he said that anyone caught leaving would be killed, (though thankfully no one followed through on his orders) that specific incident occurred after they witnessed him giving orders to burn down a house containing Indian familiesā¦ And that is only one incident, though one recorded by David Crockett The only reason Jackson is a controversial figure, (and not a complete villain) is because of his adopted children, though frankly no one knows why. He was a sadistic and cruel man who at one point basically ruled the country singlehandedly as a tyrant
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David Crockett now that would be someone Iād love to play!
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Oooh that one where so are under supplied. Which faulting of current Administration. They was revolt against his command. Then there potato found in cellar of burn Indian home that with all horror disgust you can imagine that soak in human fat from body above. But Crockett and company was starvingā¦so they eaten horrid fooded. Crockett was Famous when was alive and when he was serving in congresss he was part of Jackson Entourage. Ooh America.
Okay, Iāve read this whole thread and I gotta play Devilās Advocate here for the OP, because (and I am sorry if this comes off as harsh, I mean it to be thought provoking, respectful dialogue, so I hope that is how you will interpret it) I have read some very legitimate concerns from people on the moral, ethical, and sensitive racial points triggered by Andrew Jackson. You are rationalizing this proposalāusing only this specific person as the āprotagonistāāby saying that the story takes place long before he committed racial genocide and other very terrible deeds later in life. That is is only a study in how one might prevent or nurture such a person to begin with, am I understanding that correctly? Because the best analogy I can come up with for what that sounds like is if I proposed making a HG about Adolf Hitler, BUT BUT BUT not when he was a Holocaust dictator, but an impoverished child and struggling artist. Although it is hard to argue that he was not an important or even compelling figure that forever shaped world history, those two arcs of a whole life really cannot be separated and focusing on the not-so-murdery parts probably does not make people feel more comfortable with playing a game as freakinā Hitler. An interesting gamble, perhaps, and one even a few people might try out, but leaves one with an icky feeling, IMHO.
I do wonder why, if you are interested in the more psychological aspects of a character who came up from hardship to be a political figure, you donāt just come up with an original character set in that same era? I think your plot ideas are solid, I just canāt fathom why this is a game/story that you feel can ONLY be told through this nonfiction man and his legacy. One can certainly borrow from American history without reenacting it through a dead entity. Why not make up your own person who aspires to politics, gets embroiled in war or policy, and has chance meetings with people like Jackson, Crockett, etc. anyway? Authors do this all the time.
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He care about his constituency because you know he got them push for was the first step into universal suffrage. He love his wife no other he we do not known he fought in 20 oor 120 duel Many of them where some insulting his marriage. That thing is Jackson would fight for everything and over anything he thought was personal slight. He easier to humanize then you think. Which make his actions more shocking.
āwould fight for everything and over anythingā Seeing that, it doesnāt seem so unnatural for him to go from dueling to massacres.
I am tempted god knowns it would make research little easier. and I could make it about a Crockett or Sam Houston like figure. What makes Jackson interesting and compelling as much as he is monstrous. Heās embodiment of America both of the Testament we said we like to represent and figure that has done some of our major sins. He is that Duality hypocrisy that we see in country. Who was the first populist President we could have had 3 terms of him it wasnāt for the Electoral College. He ran the country Iron fist was both good and bad. He kept country together his removal policy itās one of the darkest things in American history that everyone refused to talk about for a very long time. And what he started it just got worse we broke so many treaties. At the same time is a first-generation American that made something of himself. Too many thereās nothing more American than that least in cultural imagination. If he didnāt have that complicated relationship with the Indians to say the least he would remember the same light Washington was, thatās how much he was idolized. A figured that polarizing So best and worst traits of this country can make damn good writing.
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I donāt disagree with those sentiments at all! That is absolutely true and I believe we should never forget our past, even the horrible stuff, what with those who fail to learn from history being doomed to repeat it and all. But what you propose seems way better suited for a nonfiction historical novel (like, a BOOK book) than an interactive game where you are asking people to pretend they are that person, you know? Itās one thing to read about someone who did those things, good or evil, and quite another to make someone who thinks what they did is terrible stand in their shoes. Itās a crucial difference.
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War is disgustly messy business especially when you are under supplied. That scrounge earth tactics as terrible as it was common one. Trail Tears could combination of Jackson hating some of sitting Justices and his bone he fellt he had with the Cherokee.
I am aware of the removal policy; like I said I am a history major. People at the time did see it as heinous, but they were a minority. As early as the 1500s there were people criticizing the way that Europe and later America treated Indians.
The Indian Removal Act was Jackson. The Trail of Tears, while not referred to as such until 1838, began in 1830 with its passage.
As I said before, my issue with this game idea is that I believe it is trivializing what he has done and what he has caused. You might as well call this game āRaise Your Own Genocidal Maniac!ā, because it is that belittling.
It is possible to humanize someone without romanticizing them. Based on the way the writer has described his plan, I do not feel it is doing this in a safe way. I am immensely uncomfortable with the intentions behind this game because to me it is coming off as trying to justify his racism and what he would later do. This is a man who supported slavery and had an integral part in the genocide of indigenous people.
Ultimately I canāt stop Rogar from writing this game, because it is his choice. But I do know that if COG hosts the game, either complete or as a WIP, I have no intention of continuing my support for the company. This game is literally about a real, (formerly) breathing monster.
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Amen!!
Alsoā¦ An appropriate quote:
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Um, if I might weight on the original topic, I donāt think I would like playing it. Despite my confessed love for history, American presidents arenāt a very interesting topic, I believe. And I donāt think Iād enjoy playing as a historical figure, especially one as controversial as Andrew Jackson.
But, Rog, I think you should also consider the weight that writing it entails. The decisions the players might be forced to make, how to transmit that to an audience and how to deal with what you, as the writer, thinks of the ideas in the text. Iām not pushing you against it. In fact, I think that one tool that can be a changer in storytelling is the empathy the author can have towards their multiple characters and situations. But itās not going to be easy.
Iād be much more interested in that boot-maker game set in the Hanseatic League you were planning 
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Well, with all respect to @Rogar, thereās a significant risk that the story would end up being terrible. 
The concept is inherently risky ā but I donāt think that makes it inherently flawed. A story which explores the process by which a man becomes a powerful racist demagogue can explain it without justifying it. A game which draws out the linkages between the American ideals Jackson genuinely represented and the horrors he perpetrated could, again, be powerful and eye-opening, not to mention timely.
Based on what weāve got so far, I donāt read @Rogar as intending to justify or trivialize Jacksonās racism. Of course, we know where the road paved with good intentions leads; thereās always a danger that our writing gets away from us and we end up replicating what we intended to critique. Doubly so in projects like this one about prejudices that are baked deep into our culture. But just because itās a risky project doesnāt make it an inherently unworthy one.
Itās important that we write the right kinds of stories about real monsters (says the guy writing a big epic story thatās all about fantasy monsters). I agree that it would ā if successful! ā leave the reader with an icky feeling, and that it wouldnāt be the kind of IF where you get to completely shape the character. But understanding what makes monsters ā and in this case, understanding how a particular kind of American life and ideal can make monsters ā is important enough that I have to disagree with opposing it from the outset.
So if heās up for the challenge, Iād encourage Rogar to continue as heās begun ā with openness to a critical audience, aware that what heās writing isnāt fun escapism. And Iād encourage the CoG community to suppress our collective gag reflex and engage with the idea that IF could be a uniquely powerful way to explore real-world horrors (and not just, as in my own WIP, hyperbolic fantasy equivalents with the serial numbers scraped off).
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Rogar,
Iām not a big fan of this idea at all. I know a great deal about Jackonās life, and while he led an interesting life, by no means did he live a good one. The man was a monster.
I, personally love historical fiction. I think, with historical fiction, it can be a stronger story when the character is alongside the principle characters, like Lincoln, Washington, ect, rather than playing as them. It greatly expands what you can do with the story telling, as opposed to being locked into a lot of facts.
One of my favorite authors, Tim Powers, does this exceptionally well with the vampire novel āThe Stress of Her Regardā, or On Stranger Tides (What pirates of the Caribbean bought from Powers and butchered).
In on Stranger Tides you go on adventures along side Blackbeard, or Ponce Deā Leon, while in āStressā, you are alongside Lord Byron, and other famous romantic poets.
I dunno, Iām not thrilled about the idea. Jackson sucked.
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Iāve got to throw in a good word for Declare, reinterpreting the Cold War as fought for control of djinn. Absolutely love Powersā work in general. (And as the obligatory-Lewis-quoter in my own gang of friends, I love that Philip K. Dick wrote Powers into Valis saying, āWould you kindly not tell us what CS Lewis would say in this situation?ā)
But to stay on topicā¦ Iād still suggest that Jacksonās suckiness is what makes Rogarās project both dangerous and potentially worthwhile.
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