I couldn’t agree more with this. Too many people are just so intent to meet quotas that they see no issue with flipping around genders of plot-crucial characters regardless of how it might affect the plot.
For instance in my plot if the character were to be male and romancing a male NPC, that would be drastically different from if they were pursuing a female NPC. Why? Because the two of them are in Russia, in the 1970s. Men in those sorts of relationships couldn’t be as openly casual about it as a man and woman could be. Were the story set in a more modern era this would be much less of an issue.
That being said I suppose the good news for those who so desire to have a romantic sub-plot open to them, I’ve managed to find a way to include such a character. Funnily enough the character does gender-swap (the nature of their role allows it quite readily I feel) and they have no gender lock as the player gets to decide the gender of said individual when first meeting them. Thoughts?
Yeah, as I admitted myself, I’m not a fan of pushing my preference aside either. XD Except in rare cases, where I really like (love) the male character.
I did say genderflips don’t work…most of the time, and it’s not just because of certain gender rolls, I think. It’s because of the tone of their voice as well as the general “feel”.
While you can genderflip one-time characters as much as you’d like (mostly. it still depends on the culture, voice tone etc…even though 1 time chars should usually only have 1 or two consistent traits), main characters that you imagined as male, female, nonB being gender flipped…? Even if you have a fantasy setting where females can be warriors etc, it’s still something that could ruin the character, and in worst cases, the whole tale. Gender flipping I mean. At least, that’s my opinion on it.
To make more of a point: Ever been in a multiplayer game, where you RPed with other people…? How did RL guys there RP females when trying to ‘themselves’…? Did it work most of the time, or was it an epic fail…?
By the way, anyone who tries to RP as themselves is obviously going to fail xD It’s a pretty noob thing to do, but nobody fails at it more then cis males or females trying to rp the opposed sex while playing themselves lol.
Well where tone is concerned, the only person who will have a pre-conceived notion of how this character sounds would likely be me. Your very first option (in the case of this character I’ve included) is deciding their gender before they’ve even had a word of dialogue. Beyond that there is nothing they do or say that would be decidedly out of character for either gender (you don’t need a certain chromosome one way or another to know how to use a knife or a gun well enough).
That’s actually a good point…but what about as far as story goes?
Would Harry Potter work if the main characters were genderflipped…? I guess. That’s something i’d have to think about, not you. Thanks for a valid argument, though. The voice thing…you could be right on it. I wasn’t even completely 100% sure of myself as I was typing the voice issue ‘out loud’…instead of having the thoughts in my head.
I actually considered making separate scenes in my warrior’s origin story, because i imagined the spouse being in a certain gender…while the player could chose they had a wife, husband or nonB spouse… Hm.
One of the comments made me believe it was just as enjoyable/believable to play it as the gender I didn’t imagine them in. But I’m still unsure…Damn it. xD I have to think this all through…maybe the only problem here is that I have trouble straying away from how I initially imagined my characters?
Another example of gender-flipping done well, IMO, is Pendragon Rising. When you get a choice to select a gender, that becomes the gender normally seen in that role (that of a warrior and military leader). So if you select female then in that universe the fighting and general leadership is handled by women. I’ll admit that somebody like you and I who have the existing bias of knowing that the era being emulated was traditionally a world where men were the ones who went off to do much of the fighting and other horrid things.
I think the issue you face with this is the same that any author faces with their character(s) as perceived by them versus their audience. Both you and your reader likely have your idea of how that character is or should be, but the difference is when and how you develop those concepts and ideas. For you its from the first moment you start drafting notes for them. For the player its often only after they’ve been given some small sample of the character’s nature before even discovering their gender.
Regarding this last part, would you say that it’ll be easier for a genderflip character to work for an audience if an author doesn’t have a set gender in mind when creating/developing them? Is that even possible?
I would say it matters less on the author’s preconceptions and more on the preconceptions of the universe in which the story is to take place.
For instance if your story takes place in 1919 in the middle of WW1 and you planned for an NPC to be the character’s platoon leader? Then you either need to in some way address how this universe and time period differs from the real one to allow a woman to hold that roll or just hope that the players’ suspension of disbelief is something close to iron-clad.
If its a character who’s gender wouldn’t intrinsically affect how they would be perceived in their role for that universe then that suddenly makes their gender a moot point. It makes no difference if your party’s paladin is a man or a woman if its a fantasy universe.where men and women are viewed as both free and able to pursue that occupation. All it is at that point is more flavor and description for the character.
I had more been meaning to say that it sounds like the issue @Tanja.K has is simply dealing with overcoming their perception of their characters when deciding if making their gender changeable would work. I feel its merely an issue of being aware of it as a writer and developing your story and that character accordingly.
I apologize for the digression, but I just wanted to point out that like in your World War I example, it would still be possible to set things up to allow for a female soldier, even as a platoon leader. As you say, the author would have to address it with a real world solution, but it would be doable. Admittedly, certain areas/circumstances would be easier than others.
And if there are some players who then say ‘this violates my suspension of disbelief’? Well, then the problem lies with them because there are real world examples of women who fought in WW I.
First that comes to mind is Flora Sandes, a British woman who served in the Serbian Army. Flora Sandes - Wikipedia
Even if you are talking front lines, Dorothy Lawrence was a British Reporter who actually reported from the trenches disguised as a male soldier. This isn’t saying she was a soldier, but a similar situation could be set up where a woman could sneak to the front lines and fight. Dorothy Lawrence - Wikipedia
In my mind, I think of it in terms of the authors mindset being that of a writer/novelist or a gamemaker.
I expect, if someone is used to writing non-interactive fiction, it can be hard to change some of their hard-coded ideas of, as an example, what the correct way to make a character is.
In cases like @Tanja.K 's where (I’m pretty sure I recall) the game is based on already written non-interactive fiction, this is probably twice as hard, and emotional, as the characters are already established.
I remember quite a few examples of that, from the last year alone.
I tend to favour characters with set genders too. However, in my case, it’s more because it doesn’t feel right for me as the audience to arbitrarily choose an aspect of them. I wonder how my view will change once your game is out.
To be honest, I still don’t quite understand the importance of ‘romance’ to so many folks here, (54% said in a recent poll that they needed or preferred romance in a HG/CoG), mainly because most all the HGs/CoGs I’ve read only gave ‘romance’ surface level treatment. Something like:
introduce potential ROs,
give MC and RO a few “fun scenes” together,
perhaps a note in the story’s resolution that they are still together?
I’m not sure I’ve read a CoG or a HG that I felt had a real substantive romance arc, and by that, I mean:
inciting incident (a unique/important/memorable first meeting of the characters)
progressive complications (characters get to know each other, build intimacy, but then the stakes start to get higher, complications and arguments arise, obstacles to their relationship keep coming)
a crisis! (one or both of the characters is faced with a situation that threatens the entire romance, the romance appears doomed!)
a climax (the “declaration of love” scene where one or both make sacrifices or overcome other obstacles to be together)
resolution (some, but perhaps not all, of the issues are resolved. It doesn’t necessarily have to be “happily ever after” though)
First of all, before I make any further assumptions, DO any CoGs/HGs check all of these boxes?? It’s been so long since I read Choice of Romance, perhaps I need to reread that one. Heck, maybe there are tons of stories that check these boxes and I’ve just missed them (very possible).
Please note I am not criticizing anyone’s work, and I would freely admit that my “romance” plots in CCH are pretty crappy when examined through the lens of actual “story.” I tried to give each RO a subplot, but utterly failed, mostly because it’s a ton of work, especially when you have 5+ characters and you keep thinking, “Damn, only 20% of readers are even going to SEE this!”), and I just gave up trying. Not my proudest moment.
I would love (pun intended) to see more stories with just one or two ROs where the author has time to check all the boxes above.
I think something to bear in mind is that text games are obviously limited by their very nature; as a result, many people are already projecting/imagining things that may not necessarily be written. The same goes with romance options.
So if a game is well-regarded, and the RO’s fleshed out enough, then that’s all it may take.
Where you put your time and effort is definitely a concern. However, the reason a lot of people did like your characters, and felt it was romantic, even if they don’t necessarily check off the boxes you listed, is because they were interesting, ‘normal’ people…I mean, there is a reason I adore Tress (being described as a Red Head is a plus).
There are already fanfic scenes, and fanart scenes I want to commission with Tress. I mean, what if they played with a light BDSM scene, Tress’ hair ‘binding’ my MC. Is this in your game? Of course not? But I also can see Tress doing this from interactions with her, etc.
Once I get through all three books of Fallen Hero, I will have. But to fit it in a single game where the focus is not just on the romance? I feel that would be hard to fit in. Time is needed to make things really matter. I’ve only reached step 2 in book one…
I see your point about readers possibly projecting/imagining things to supplement what is provided in the story.
And yes, this might help us “get off the hook” in many cases. We can only do so much, after all, and “romance” is generally a side-attraction to the main plot in CoGs/HGs anyway, so it’s understandable.
But can you imagine how engrossing a romance arc might be if we actually checked off those boxes above? Perhaps the Hearts Choice label will focus more on that. I’d like to see the ups and downs and highs and lows of a romance, not just the “fun scenes” we generally see.
(And it’s amazing how many messages I got just about Tress’s one little off-hand ‘handcuff’ comment in the sleepover scene. That was not really planned…I just tossed it in there as a fun aside)
It sounds like you are being thoughtful about it! The romance arc definitely needs time to breathe to check those boxes. I am exited to read Fallen Hero when it’s released. Judging from the fandom that has accompanied it, my expectations are high.
I stayed out of your thread for fear of subconsciously ‘borrowing’ any of your ideas. I stay away from all superhero/villain/comic book threads for that reason.
And that’s why I am optimistic about the Heart’s Choice label. When working with a normal CoG/HG, you are already trying to cover other subject matter, and I agree sometimes it would be nice to have more, the ups and downs, etc.
Between that, and the bit with the picture, it showed a daring side to Tress. Sometimes, it is also these small things which can make someone fall in love with a given character.
I mean, one game I wrote on, a female protagonist was given a ‘crowbar with a red bow’ as a romantic gift by the romance option for it…and I was surprised by the positive comments I got for it when I thought it was just for fun (the RO had a thuggish past himself). The few negative comments I got were along the lines of “my male MC would have loved a similar scene”
ME TOO! For the very same reason. Played the Heroes Rise trilogy just to get a feel for what people did with choicescript when I started, but yeah, it’s always dangerous to check things close to what I am currently writing. I’m also terrified of finding out that someone already did what I am doing and did it better…
The voice thing…you could be right on it. I wasn’t even completely 100% sure of myself as I was typing the voice issue ‘out loud’…instead of having the thoughts in my head.