Moderation and Forum Norms

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Not an awful idea. It took me a long while to get comfortable enough to make my first comment

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For me, I don’t feel the lack of an introduction thread. I want people to get into a thread and start chatting about stuff. I like to get to know people in the context of a conversation, and I don’t read the introduction channel of discords.

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I agree. Any established forum I have been on with an introduction thread is just hundreds of similar posts that no one reads.

I do wonder how many people lurk and don’t feel comfortable, or able, to post at all, for whatever reason. Whilst a different question, it could have links to the underlying ebb and flow of discussion that takes place on the forum and by extension, its moderation.

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That’s understandable but I also feel like thats only taking one side of the situation. At the very least the idea is out there for consideration.

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Disclaimer: I am not talking about any specific incidents here; I know way too little about how this forum works to be talking about the people you suspect I am. If you think I am pointing fingers at anyone in particular, that is just filtering my words through your own experiences. It’s natural, but I still have probably never heard of the person you think I am talking about.

As someone who was a moderator in the dark ages of the internet (oh WFB, the most peaceful of fandoms), there was one big lesson I learned there:

The forum users never know the whole story, and neither do the moderators.

The first is more damaging to the community, and the second can be very damaging to individuals.

For example: There are stories circulating, which sound weird and hurtful and illogical, and how could anything like that happen? I don’t understand what’s happening? Or why? What if it happened to me?

We’ve heard those stories before, people banned for a thousand years, kicked out for breathing in the wrong direction, or any other of a dozen incidents. I’ve heard them and have no idea about the details, but they still make me wonder what was going on. Curiosity is as natural as fear for your own safety.

And yet. I know how this goes. I am hearing second-hand accounts from people I know nothing about, who might tell and retell stories, and who knows what information gets forgotten or changed? I never read the original posts. Or partook in the discussions. Or saw what might have been written before deleted. Or the PMs. Or anything else. What I see is the aftermath, the moderator post announcing a decision, copy-pasted from a DM, and used as fight fuel.

I’ve been a moderator. I’ve seen how information gets twisted, sometimes by ill-intent, most often by word of mouth, and people wanting to use old grievances to support their own. Or, if they were directly involved, because they filter what they tell people through the lens of their own hurt feelings. Real feelings. It doesn’t matter if you’re right or wrong; you can be hurt all the same.

And yet, even if nobody knows the whole background, the emotions that bringing up things like this cause are real. Because IF that was the whole truth, it would be terrible. Most people, including me, react very strongly against perceived injustice (whether it’s true or not).

Adding to the complications, moderators try to keep things out of the public eye to avoid further harm to people as they try to sort things out. At least we did, and from what I have seen of this place, the same goes here. That means that the regular forum user only sees the first slip, and then the massive crash down the hill four miles away, and not the road that gets there. If they notice at all.

This is usually the best way of dealing with things since it keeps the 99% of forum users from being forced to have first-hand seats to fights they aren’t involved in and helps things from escalating because some people just like to pile on. Often this allows things to be resolved without anything blowing up, and everyone involved can go back to their business. Sometimes it does not, and that’s when bans might happen.

Do they happen too often or for the wrong thing? I have no way of telling, and neither does any other forum user. What I can say is that I do regret not banning more people back when I was a moderator on a different site. If we had, a lot of grief would have been saved in the long run. Would we have banned someone who didn’t deserve it? Yes, at the time, we did not know they would grow up and change their ways. Nobody can see the future; how do you judge one person being allowed space to learn how to socialize instead of antagonize against a dozen people leaving because of the tensions they caused?

Being a moderator is hard. Being moderated is also hard.

This finally brings me to part two of my statement above. The moderators don’t know the whole story either. An argument on the forums might have deep roots, and the moderator might only catch a singular instance. A person might have been pushed and hurt off-site, and then the fight moves here, but the person who lashes out might be the aggrieved party. The bullied finally hitting the bully, but this time there is a teacher around, and they are the one getting in trouble. It’s a classic.

This is one of the reasons why trying to solve it in PMs is a good idea. To get the full story. If the person in question can talk calmly, everything usually resolves itself. Misunderstandings happen all the time. BUT people are people.

Some people react very badly to being told what to do. Even if there are good reasons for it. If there is anything this pandemic has taught us, it’s that (just watch any video of anti-mask wearing tantrums in stores). If someone perceives they have been unfairly warned/flagged/accused, they might snap and go on the attack. This goes double if the issue is emotional and tied to their politics/identity/views, which is why those subjects tend to be the ones causing the drama.

This is the point where I can very easily see things escalating to a ban for questioning moderation instead of just talking things through.

So what’s the solution here? I don’t have one. Not everyone can be Gower (seriously, his calm reasoning skills here and elsewhere are something I envy). I just wanted to get this out there.

TLDR:

  1. The forum users never know the whole story, and neither do the moderators.
  2. Bringing up past events is not the gotcha you think it is.
  3. Focus on what you can personally do to fix the issue.
  4. The rules can never be clear enough; try to focus on the spirit.
  5. If a situation/poster/thread/forum makes you feel bad, walk away.

And in the end, this is CoG’s site, their rules. If you want discussions they don’t want here or talk in a manner they don’t feel conductive, go elsewhere. That’s why there are many sites. There is nothing wrong with coming here for WIPS or help and talking politics or sharing memes elsewhere. I do. There’s no obligation for any site to be what you want it to be.

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I was a moderator on this forum a couple years ago, and can confirm there’s a lot regular forum users don’t see. A lot of messages are deleted while managing conflicts, and, while still visible to all moderators so they can support the person handling it when needed, (and trust me, there were plenty of times when I’ve handed off the torch to a different moderator because I didn’t manage to de-escalate a situation or the ire of the person or people involved turned on me) they are invisible to regular forum users.

Of course moderators don’t always know the full story either, PMs are invisible unless a post in one gets flagged, but they do have access to more information than most, and will, in cases where something is serious enough to warrant a ban or suspension, talk about it with their fellow moderators first.

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i am a bit curious about how you moderators deal with conflicts, between 2 of more people.
do you all moderators have some kind of guidlines yourself on how to talk with the people in the conflict?

or do you all deal with the conflict in a different way?

so where i worked before we had some guidlines to how to deal with conflicts

  1. Talk with the other person.
    Ask the other person to name a time when it would be convenient to meet.
    Arrange to meet in a place where you won’t be interrupted.

  2. Focus on behavior and events, not on personalities.
    Say “When this happens …” instead of “When you do …”
    Describe a specific instance or event instead of generalizing.

  3. Listen carefully.
    Listen to what the other person is saying instead of getting ready to react.
    Avoid interrupting the other person.
    After the other person finishes speaking, rephrase what was said to make sure you understand it.
    Ask questions to clarify your understanding.

  4. Identify points of agreement and disagreement.
    Summarize the areas of agreement and disagreement.
    Ask the other person if he or she agrees with your assessment.
    Modify your assessment until both of you agree on the areas of conflict.

  5. Prioritize the areas of conflict.
    Discuss which areas of conflict are most important to each of you to resolve.

  6. Develop a plan to work on each conflict.
    Start with the most important conflict.
    Focus on the future.
    Set up future meeting times to continue your discussions.

  7. Follow through on your plan.
    Stick with the discussions until you’ve worked through each area of conflict.
    Maintain a collaborative, “let’s-work-out-a-solution” attitude.

  8. Build on your success.
    Look for opportunities to point out progress.
    Compliment the other person’s insights and achievements.
    Congratulate each other when you make progress, even if it’s just a small step. Your hard work will pay off when scheduled discussions eventually give way to ongoing, friendly communication.

now these guidlines might help everyone on the forum not just the moderators

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Can’t speak for how the mod team does things, but in general if something’s actually breaking the rules (and most conflicts between users that would require formal conflict resolution procedures have already gotten too hot), we don’t encourage users to engage with it - just flag it and move on.

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i agree with that this is a good way to bury the battleaxe and move on.
but i am thinking that this also leads to a lot of unsolved feelings or lingering bitterness that might flare up again.

also i got some thoughts on the 365 days suspension
i read somewhere yesterday that the use of the 365 days suspension is used a lot more than the much shorter suspension of (1 month?) or something

i feel this is a bit unnecessary use of force
if that person has invested a lot of time and love for the forum and supported the authors with usefull feedback.

if a person has broken a rule here, atleast give them a chance to say “i am sorry, i wont do it again”

Before being quick to judge someone for their actions, you should always try to put yourself in their shoes. Everyone is human, after all.

thats my thoughts on the matter

also a little update: i really hope that @Nagisa18 dident get suspended for what she wrote. there was nothing wrong in what she posted

there is nothing to flag here
this is abuse of power
this is just what i said yesterday “if you question my rule i will send you to gulag”
feels like i am in a Authoritarian regime

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i agree

i think i am going back to lurker mode and give feedback to authors instead

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This forum thread isn’t for the community, the whole point of it is so trigger happy mods can ban people and just refer to this thread as justification for the bans they give out.

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If anything, DarthMaul, I am trigger sad. I really and truly think that the purpose of this thread is to make moderation more predictable, and give people a sense of why I personally make my decisions. While I would guess many of my fellow moderators use a similar logic, I want to emphasize that I wrote this, and I don’t speak for the way others decide things.

It’s a work in progress, and what I hope is that we can all assume that we aren’t out to get each other. When there’s been breach of trust, it’s hard to–and reasonably so–assume good intentions. I hear you, and I hope that you or anyone who posts in good faith will get respect.

I encourage you and anyone else to reach out if you need an ear about stuff. And if you have any suggestions about how to improve my list, please don’t hesitate to tell me.

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The conversation I’ve read since I last visited has been really respectful so far, which I super duper respect.

Because I’m self-centered, I’m gonna hop on my soapbox for another couple of minutes and just reiterate some of the points that I think are most important.

It is clearly not possible to make things perfect for everyone. Full stop, it’s just not. That being said…

We can try to make it as perfect as possible for as many people as possible. I still think the ideal first step for this is some level of transparency from the mods in terms of actions perceived by the community to be heavy-handed. If the mods eff up, they should apologize, publicly. Not in a “shame the jerk!” public stockade kind of way, but in a, “hey. We screwed up. It’s important to us to maintain trust within the community.”

The other day, an unnamed mod responded to mentions of deleted posts with nothing more than a quote from the FAQ. While perhaps that action is technically within the rights of the mods and admin, that doesn’t mean it is always the correct action to take. Burying your heels in deep and sticking to your guns is not the way to effectively communicate and resolve issues.

That being said, on the side of the users. There needs to be some level of understanding. I’ve seen a few unnamed people get a little bit too invested (I am guilty of this, which is why I stepped away from the issue for a bit, to the best of my ability), which also isn’t ideal for good communication. We need to be patient and understand that moderators are volunteers. They do this in their free time, but they’ve accepted additional responsibility out of love for the community. We need to try to control our vitriol and understand that there currently isn’t really a standard operating procedure for the mods. Right now, it’s seemingly just their best judgment, for the most part. Do I think that should be adjusted? Yes. But that will come with time.

Anyway, tl;dr: be excellent to each other.

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@ashestoashes018 –

Forcing a “public apology” is painting a red letter over the mod, no matter how you try to dress it up as “non-shaming” … if you force this on mods, perhaps this should be required for users as well…

I think not.

This would be a wrong thing to do, no matter who you try to “hold accountable”, because shaming the person is what you are advocating, no matter the attempt to paint it otherwise.

With all that said, if an apology is called for, it is my opinion a mod should be able to do so. I believe every current moderator has that ability and even has apologized when appropriate.

I urge you to send your ideas and thoughts regarding the issues you perceive to support where they can then initiate the process of review and perhaps more.

“Be kind to others” is the first and golden rule in the guidelines, but it is the one most abused, ignored and even mocked.

Users of this community, rarely take responsibility for their actions and most that go against the guidelines almost always are of the opinion that their actions are above, outside or are not breaking the guidelines.

Allowing a never-ending discourse on why their action is exempt or does not break the guidelines is not a good practice for mods to engage in.

I hope you contact support sooner than later, if you feel change is in order.

Sorry, but in this, you are wrong.

Using shame on people that have been victims of bullying and shaming their entire lives, as many in this community have, is not only wrong, it is harmful.

I really suggest you look into the practices of shaming a vulnerable minority, because it might change your opinion on using shame to achieve your goals.

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Sometimes I get the feeling that the “higher ups” don’t seem to care that a lot of the forum users are actually paying customers and it is more than a little irksome as a customer when trying to make a suggestion/comment no matter how silly sounding or out of the “forum norms” to be simply shut down (with a suspension or a ban) with no explanation. I get being a niche community and all that but sometimes it comes of as simply callous customer service.

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It’s not my intention to go back through previous incidents on an open thread–I don’t necessarily have all of the context, and in some cases, these things go back years. And anyhow, I think it would be counterproductive. I’m interested in moving forward.

I hear what you are saying more generally, though, and I appreciate your expressing it. I hope the first post, where I laid out the atmosophere the moderators are trying to create. I know that a lot of online communities and cultures have different expectations–sometimes wildly different, and sometimes these different expectations clash.

Sometimes when enforcement has to happen (suspensions, warning, and so forth) that’s an attempt to create that environment to the best of our ability. I will say that I would be very surprised if a “silly sounding” comment or “trying to make a suggestion” led to a ban with no explanation. But as for “out of the forum norms” I really do take that seriously.

I think you are right that explanations are good things in some cases, especially when giving a warning, so the guidelines are clear. I hope people can take that kind of feedback in the spirit in which it is given.

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I think what @ashestoashes018 was describing was less of a ‘I, the individual, have a made a mistake and here is my public post for everyone to see to lay bare the mistakes I have made’.
But more of a ‘Hey, this situation occured and we, the mod team approached it ‘this way’ because of reasons X, Y, Z and on reflection, we recognise we might have mis-stepped for ‘this reason’. We’ll look to rectify this and have updated the guidelines accordingly’.

The second interpretation, whether you think its a good idea or not, treats the moderators as a team rather than individuals and refers to accountability at an organisational level, rather than an individual one.

I think this might be a really, really, important distinction to draw in this discussion. Whilst the moderators are individuals and have their own approaches and personalities, ultimately they are representatives of an organisation and should most of the time be regarded as such. This means that if moderator A closes your thread, it is not because moderator A is making bad decisions, they just happen to be the member of the moderation team who was active at the time and saw the thread and applied the rules (as set down by the organisation).

You can then question the moderation approach, adopted by the organisation and request greater transparency or alterations to the rules - and in @ashestoashes018’s case, a process of public remediation to issues that have arisen.

Of course, moderators are individuals and you may, for whatever reason, have a grievance with how an individual moderator operates. My personal opinion is that this is never, ever, for public discussion. That is an issue to be taken to that person in question, another moderator (or mod team at large), or CoG itself. You would not appreciate a comment or thread being made about you and why that person is not happy with you - and the moderators are not exempt from this.

It is the same issue for when any other organisation makes a mistake - it would be incredibly bad form for that organisation to wheel out the poor employee who made a mistake and make them apologise on TV. This is different for CEOs and the like, because they ‘are’ the organisation.

To take the idea of ‘public shaming’, as specifically discussed, as per the first interpreation.
I think there’s a lot of questions that would have to be answered, such as:

  • This isn’t a forum for conflict resolution. It is for discussion of CoG, HG and their development. Fundamentally, we should all be able to get along at a basic level that shouldn’t require anything anywhere near ‘public apologies’ from any one individual for anything. Do we want to encourage that as a norm?
  • Who decides when a public apology is needed? Can I call out ‘person X’ and say I’m offended by something they say, and they have to issue a public apology? What if they don’t? Are they banned (forever)?
  • What if someone is considered to be ‘overly sensitive’ and is demanding apologies left, right and centre? Do they now have to issue a public apology?
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(post withdrawn by author, will be automatically deleted in 24 hours unless flagged)

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It might help people to know that the moderation team isn’t a tight-knight secret cult of idealist ban ninjas: we do actually discuss a lot of cases together in great depth and we very often initially disagree on how certain things should be handled. We have a mix of opinions and experiences, as does the community. We will never please everyone (mods and members), because far too often we find there simply is no perfect answer. It’s the same with any human disagreement. The world isn’t a blissful utopia of universal agreement, and this forum isn’t likely to become one anytime soon either.

That said, it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to improve, and I’m (personally) happy to support more openness about moderation decisions/processes etc.

On another note, something that bothers me, that I feel a need to clarify: I don’t believe I’ve ever banned anyone for “questioning a moderator” (but I’m happy for someone to call me out if you believe I have), nor do I think I ever would. I can’t speak for other moderators, but I imagine what’s actually happened there is someone has gotten aggressively defensive about a ban or a warning, to the point where moderators have then been forced to increase the ban (or ban instead of warn further) because of their reaction/behaviour. It’s like getting a parking ticket, swearing at the attendant might seem like a good idea – but it’s really not going to help your case (even if it was given in error).

I kinda like to imagine the forums as a board game club. It’s all good fun and a laugh 90% of the time, but things can get a bit heated now and then (board games are competitive after all!), but it’s on us as individuals to determine how we react to all the various stimuli. How gracefully you win/lose, whether you play by the rules and how gracious you are to other players etc.

The Moderators are there to make sure the club runs smoothly, and to ensure that y’all have a good time. If people start being sore losers (or winners), being abusive, cheating, or otherwise making the board game club a place we all don’t want to be – then yes, of course we’re going to call it out.

But we’re going to make mistakes too, for sure. Maybe one day we thought you were “cheating”, and asked you aside, but lo and behold we didn’t know you were playing with an expanded ruleset. Oops, our bad! Let us know (politely!). Believe it or not we want to sit at the table and enjoy the game just as much as you guys do. I find the problems tend to arise when people get defensive (on both sides), and it’s very easy to “type type type” and “click enter” from behind a screen. Next time you get moderated (and moderators, next time you’re moderating), I suggest just checking that’s how you’d handle the situation if it were with friends you know - in person - at a weekly board game club, before you click send.

You might be surprised at the difference then between your first and second drafts, I know I often am.

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I’ve been a admin/mod on discord for about a year in several server’s and sometimes i have to ban/mute people but some people said that we (the moderation team) was “banning people just because they speak out against you mods” the way we solved it was every month a random member that was a upstanding member of the community would get a role so they could see all mod channels that way they could see what we saw and could see why we made the decisions we made now that might be impractical here but the mods here might want to try something similar

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