Redhead, and I think red is the default Vampire eye color in this game, but I didn’t pay much attention to that part.
Right, and Kurt?
I’m going to be honest, I don’t think Kurt ever gets a proper description of his hair color. He has a beard, and is buff, and those are the only descriptors I remember about him.
I guess I’m not super passionate in these threads because it’s kind of hard for me to hate a fictional character–hate is a rather strong word and a stronger emotion. While there are some tropes that I dislike more than others–childhood friend ROs that are ride-or-die regardless of MC’s life trajectory are a trope I dislike, and I like that J from Fernweh holds MC’s break of contact after their departure against them (“against them” is not quite right. But they definitely keep MC at arm’s length after their initial return, even after the reveals are made near the beginning of the book)–I don’t dislike them enough to write 20-post screeds about them.
10 Likes
I occasionally check this thread, but I will add one thing as an author:
So far, every single RO in FH has people who hate them, and for (in my opinion) good reasons. The traits that one person loves, can lead to another person hating them. I get really happy when I see that, because that means I’ve successfully created complicated people, in my eyes, being bland and inoffensive is what I try to avoid.
60 Likes
I actually do tend to try to de-escalate things, whenever I notice discussions in this forum starting to get out of hand, and I feel like I might be able to defuse the negative spiral.
To a degree where I sometimes worry that the moderators will get annoyed at me for not just following the flag-and-ignore guideline 
But I wouldn’t do that in this thread, since I feel like people have made it abundantly clear that they want this space to be available for ranting, venting, and expressing their negative feelings without having to defend them, or being tone-policed.
Which is very valid.
It just means it’s usually not a space for me, since I just don’t express myself that way.
But I’m usually up for discussing all kinds of things, in the relevant threads (when I don’t disappear from the forum for months, suddenly…)
9 Likes
Honestly I’m still doubtful of that policy, it seems to encourage people to try and weaponize the moderating system and generally create a bad vibe whenever it happen.
17 Likes
That’s why I suggested saying something. As long as it’s not personal, it’s not breaking the rules of “attacking” or whatever. But this whole idea of flagging anything you don’t like just creates an antagonistic environment. And it gives people with grudges a nice little way to screw over anyone they don’t like if they get even the tiniest hint of blood in the water.
20 Likes
Like Malin, I occasionally check this thread.
I feel reading critique of other author’s characters can help me refine mine better.
What I get out of the feedback in this thread may be different than what other writers can and do get out of it, because I have a different set of skills and experiences that allow me to take what I can, even from more “toxic” feedback, and use it to actually improve my writing.
The line I see being crossed here often is that someone will attribute or insinuate something about an author, then add a “disclaimer” saying “this is only my opinion” to justify doing so.
There is a real difference between expressing an opinion or interpretation of a story/narrative and crossing the line into making it into something directed at the author, intentionally or not.
17 Likes
@Eiwynn, I have always respected you a lot, probably more than any other mod around here, and I agree with your statement, in general. The problem is that “attacking the author” ends up being a subjective thing, at times. And it often ends up being used as a bludgeon to silence any complaints or dislikes about the story and characters (even in a thread dedicated to disliking certain characters!).
I provided an example above, so I don’t really feel like dragging it up again, but many times an author will say one thing about their feelings on their writing but their actual writing will show (to some people, at least) something entirely different. While that doesn’t give anyone the right to call the author a liar (anymore than it gives anyone the right to call someone else a liar about their intent), I believe it should allow for people to point it out when they feel the text is showing something else.
If we aren’t allowed to interpret these works ourselves–and are forced to go by what we’re ordered by the author’s staunchest fans or the author’s opinions of their own characters–then I don’t see the point of the forum at all. And, at the very least, there should be some honesty in the rules and flat out tell us we aren’t allowed to say anything negative or disagree with the authors’ opinions of their own works at all.
17 Likes
First,
I want to clarify: critique of an author’s character in their story is different from attaching intent and focusing on the author as a person.
At times, feedback is messy. This can be caused by chosen word usage, a lack of tone interpretation, or many other things.
When feedback is focused on the characters and the narrative, there can be no doubt that the feedback is about the character and/or the narrative.
Once the writer is included in that feedback, there is an uncertainty introduced. I know for a fact that the moderation team confers together to try our best when such feedback is flagged.
Indeed; the issue from a feedback perspective is how that feedback is presented in a post.
When I say that “superfan” in Infamous seems to be 13 or 14 years old to me, I am providing feedback on the character and you and Amy can take that feedback and do whatever with it.
If I were to say: Amy through the way she writes “superfan” is setting up the MC to form an inappropriate relationship with “superfan”… it crosses the line from me providing feedback about the character into insinuating that Amy has intent to do something that may, or may not, be true.
I agree. No one should make declarative statements about intent of another, except for that person herself. Unfortunately, these types of declarative statements lead to sniping back and forth and devolves the discussion into a circular argument that will never be resolved.
I believe that discussing interpretations is fine and should be supportive, but I also feel that hammering that interpretation over-and-over becomes counterproductive and leads to people “yelling” over each other and drowning out the rest of the feedback and discussion.
This thread is not the place to get into this, but my DM box is open to continue this if you want, or as an alternative:
24 Likes
What would be the place to get into this? Im not aware of any dedicated threads regarding this sort of topics.
4 Likes
I understand this, at a certain level, but there are times where such discussions are hard to engage with.
For example, Wayhaven really wants the PC to forgive Rebecca for being a shitty mom, if I were to say that the author wants me to forgive Rebecca and sets up the narrative for the player to do so, I would be, by your definition, insinuating things about the author.
But if I said: “The game/narrative wants me to forgive Rebecca”, it would be fine?
Both of this sentences mean the same thing, because the author is the one behind the narrative, so I dont get why one way of saying it is hostile and the other is not.
Does just the explicit mention of the author’s intent make criticism go from constructive to an attack on the author?
16 Likes
I think the answer here is to ask yourself what type of feedback the writer is asking for, and if the writer has indicated that certain feedback was not sought after.
Some writers are fine discussing their authorial intent, others are not. If it is not explicitly asked for, then it is best to assume it isn’t feedback they seek.
In general critique or feedback, there is a difference between:
and
The object of the two sentences is different. The first, focuses on the game, the second, the writer.
We disagree.
Making the writer the object of the feedback/critique brings it into a gray area where, if flagged, there is a judgement that needs to be made.
To discuss moderation actions taken, you can:
- open a DM with a moderator and discuss the issue(s) with them
or
- follow the directions to contact the moderator team at this link
or
- follow the directions to contact the staff at this link.
Let’s all return to the thread’s topic going forward.
Thanks!
4 Likes
I think it’s okay to share what you think the author is indicating in their work–that’s part of literary analysis, even at an elementary school level. But I think there’s a difference between “I feel like Jennifer is trying to push Professor Boron McFartface as a love interest, or that he’s the one who is right in this conflict over whether or not a platypus counts as a mammal” and “Jennifer is pedantic and into whiny nerds and hates platypus platypi?.”
I also think that sometimes it can be important to bring this up when discussing or complaining about bad writing for love interests–there are a lot of WIPs out right now that I can think of where the author has clear favoritism for one love interests at the expense of others, and often those others that end up having less or subpar content are romances of color and/or darker-skinned love interests. I wouldn’t go so far as to assume an author is actively being racist, but I think that it’s fair to say “Jennifer is prioritizing Professor Boron McFartface, who is the only white person in the cast, over every other option” or that “Jennifer is promoting weird and possibly offensive elitist ideals.”
Take F from Wayhaven for example. I think it’s fair to argue that the author prioritized A, N, and M over the black character in Book 3. For me, that made me dislike these other three characters a lot more–enough so that I don’t feel the need nor desire to defend them when they are mentioned here because I hate how unfair the content level is. My love for A especially has nearly evaporated upon realizing the discrepancies between their content and F’s.
I also wanted to clarify my thoughts re: the right to vent and rant here–I like that we can do so. Lord knows I’ve vented here in the past, and not always in ways I think were kind. I just also think that sometimes it crosses into the personal or straight up falsities, and I really think that it would be better to avoid making it personal.
18 Likes
It is? The A route has been in the same state for three books. N and F’s have basically the same progression (except N’s “but you’re too fragile to do that and must be protected from everything* uwu” is starting to wave red flags), and I’m curious what you think the noticeable differences are between them (content-quality and -size wise, not tone), which is bigger than A’s.
M’s the clear winner in route progression, and they absolutely run away with the trophy in B3, we agree on that.
*I mean, these people have so far managed to fail to protect me from literally everything, even though that’s their stated job, but I digress
8 Likes
F has very little unique content in Book 3 compared to the other romances–for instance, A,N, and M all get some sort of unique heart-to-heart discussion on their romance, but F’s big emotional moment about their mothercan be done as just friends. I was going to share some more examples but the Discord in which my friends and I went into it just crashed unexpectedly and it’s been too long for me to remember everything off the top of my head, so remind me later to share more.
11 Likes
With F, I don’t think it’s intentional. F is the least “angsty” route of the five, and F is the most open of all four vampires, so the heart-to-hearts aren’t as necessary. There is that one scene where F asks about MC’s exes and shares their own experience, which I think was supposed to be one of those moments, but F is, in general, laid back.
Not to mention, almost all of the angst in F’s route is supposed to be external, per patreon–the problem is that, save for b1 with Murphy, the external threats have been a joke and poorly executed. So there’s really no tension at all for F’s route so far.
So I think the lack of tension and drama is supposed to be a treat, and the “open” talks aren’t supposed to be necessary because F is such an open book.
As for the others, like @JBento said, A has been spinning wheels for three books, going nowhere, and just doing a rinse and repeat of the same old “longing look” and “I can’t!” scenes. N is in the same boat as F, with the only tension being N keeping secrets and acting like a yandere. M, in b3, was almost perfection.
10 Likes
Honestly, the only differences that I could pick out is that the emotional abuse has maybe ramped up, and that there’s less F teasing and broken furniture. Since the latter two were the only reasons I was suffering through more A-time in the first place, it at least saves me the trouble of playing the A route in B4. Maybe this time I won’t have to go look under the couch for my eyeballs after I eyerolled so hard at that shitshow that they spun off my skull.
5 Likes
Yep. A combination of the increased emotional abuse and the lack of anything halfway humorous about A’s route has soured me to it. I’m done with it. Though, honestly, I’m done with N’s route (boring and I don’t like hypocritical yandere Nate) and F’s (he grates on M’s route) as well. It’ll save me a lot of time just playing M’s!
I laugh, but that’s my reaction as well…
5 Likes