I'm Sorry, But I Think We Should See Other People - ROs You Hate

Quoting myself, because I’m lazy:

Evertree: I find the first part hard to go back to, if I’m being honest, for several reasons. It’s very short, it has pacing issues in my opinion, and the development of the relationships is a bit unrealistic, the biggest culprit here being Lamuel (I get what kind of person he is and the whole “true love at first sight” angle, but it’s still hard to believe. It just doesn’t feel natural, the way it progresses)

And also, everything Zyrios said.

Edit: Oh, if you want to romance Winter and focus on them, I’d recommend skipping Evertree entirely or breaking up with your current partner. You can’t romance them while you’re still in a relationship with Lamuel, and if you’re still together with Dandy, shit gets really messy.

@Cingulum_diaboli Here’s another tip for romancing Winter, because it is actually technically possible to miss two major scenes with them. I’ll blur it out in case you want to risk missing them and go in completely blind, but it’s only two minor location / chapter spoilers: In chapter 2 visit the tavern and in chapter 6 the docks and from there the ship.

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I’d also add that while snooping around in Evertree means you’re a snooping snooper snoopy, in Sordwin it’s your JOB. Snooping around is literally what you were hired to do.

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I really enjoyed Choice of Romance, but to me I interpretted it as playing a character who’s stuck in an abusive relationship with the monarch and isn’t able to get themself and their kids away. I got my happy ending of revolution, killing my abusive wife and finally getting to be with Gabriella… and then was shocked when I went to look up other routes and discovered that the “happy ending” was supposed to be saving the monarch and staying with them until they die of old age. I don’t mind the Monarch as an unhealthy romance (which I thiiiink they were supposed to be?) but yeah personally they make my skin crawl and I could never end a game still with them.

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And to get that ending, you have to essentially be incorruptible pure pureness, which in the cut and thrust of medieval politics is both suicidal and kind of unrealistic

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Or, if you’re having an affair, throw your sidepiece under the bus when the Monarch begins to suspect.

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I remember reading on TV Tropes that there’s also RNG involved, so the only guarantee that your efforts will pay off is if God Himself favors you this day.

I may, however, be misremembering.

Yeah… that’s an accurate portrayal of Jun, if anything I think they left some off just because there is too much to list. He beats the MC, threatens to kill them/ tries to kill them and people they care about… alot. And can confirm on the non-con portion. Details regarding that scene beneath the blur.

If your character is female he’ll even try to impregnate them without their consent. With the intent of starting a family with them even if they expressed no to that. Happened on my playthrough and I was like … wt…

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Man, flashbacks to my first detective’s first meeting (well, technically second meeting) with Team Bravo, and my initial impression that I didn’t like these guys at all. Until N stepped up and I finally realized there was a sane adult in the group… :wink:

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Me, I’m still largely in the “I don’t like the majority of these guys” box, with my opinion of F having softened from “hate outright” to “alright, no, F is okay, but I still don’t want to snuggle up with them or anything.”

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I never really saw this as ‘incorruptible pure pureness’, or the ‘happy ending’ as a happy ending. It’s just a different tactic for survival - don’t get embroiled in hazardous politics, make sure your powerful spouse trusts you too much to try and kill you, and maintain such a high reputation that anyone else trying to attack you doesn’t get away with it.

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Oh my, Momoko… forgot about her. She’s obsessed with the Ronin!!! Doesn’t matter your reasons to reject her, she still wants to pursue MC. I feel pity towards her but, she also makes me uncomfortable.

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What’s wrong with Tosh? I like them very much, unlike creepy Jun or Momoko

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He/she is litteraly worshipping you. You’re not the Ronin you’re the Sword Who Cut the Heaven. He is loving an idéal, not a person. He change through thé Books, but it’s still a little creepy.
Don’t take me wrong. I love all of those character, Tosh, Momoko, Hashimoto,Hatch, the Ronin and even Jun… But only the kid and the former drunkyard are REALLY healthy protagonist.

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I have to admit I’m quite creeped out by all the SSW fans who are gushing over Manerkol as a RO. I’m not sure if I go so far as comparing him to Hitler, but he seems to be a brutal dictator who is ready to torture or kill anyone who opposes him. And I, for one fail to see anything romantic or otherwise “RO material” about that. I’m not sure excactly how that romance path works, but any romance path that involves helping an evil overlord like Manerkol and basically turning traitor on your friends, is a romance path I’d stay far away from, so if that romance part works like that, it’s something that would be even harder for me to see the value of. I’d also have to admit that outside of a general kinkiness on behalf of the Manerkol fans, it’s hard for me to say what’s the attraction of that romance path. Unless his reputedly sad backstory is so sad that it makes them feel really sorry for him.

In some ways, it’s a bit easier to understand why some people go for Hayden Winter because although the captain is plainly evil, that character also possess a certain seductiveness and seems to be quite good in bed( and being a shapeshifter probably also means a lot of potential for, shall we say, sexual creativity, so there is that). One of my MCs did also, in one playthrough get into bed with Winter, which was certainly…interesting, but not interesting enough for me to not go with other ROs. So I can see that there is a certain sexiness to Hayden Winter that some may find appealing. But apart from that Hayden White seems like a completely despicable character. It’s revealed that the character murdered the captain of Ruby’s previous ship and as far as I can remember, Winder, tries to kill L and the main character for fun in and in order to get the package back without even giving them the chance to return it. And since I’ve also have tried the Ruby and D companion paths, I know that the captain is not on principle opposed to trying to make a deal. So either there is something about L that rubs Winter the wrong way or that the Captain only tries to kill those deemed to be to weak to defend themselves or not sexy enough to screw instead. So although Winter is not necessarily a psychopath, the captain sounds quite a bit like a sociopath who is happy to kill or murder someone else just because it’s “fun”.

And unlike Manerkol, Winter hasn’t even got a sad backstory, that can give you a little sympathy for the character or at least an explanation(though not an excuse) for the general murderousness. In short, I fail to see any redeeming qualities in Winter, unless you count the character being good in bed as a redeeming quality. I’ll admit that WInter is an interesting character, but mainly as a villain, certainly not as a RO. And if there was a way to one of my characters to kill Winter off for good, I’d happily seize that opportunity with both of my hands.

I have never played Samurai of Hyuga, so I don’t feel qualified to say anything about Jun/ko, but if the Jun path is as abusive as I’ve been given to understand, it’s easy to understand why I lot people won’t like it. And in the same way, this makes it difficult to understand why people can put themselves through it and even like it. I know that the Yandere characters can be quite popular, but still…

Anyway, I do tend to stay away from ROs that I feel are somewhat suspect, so to speak. If I feel a RO is a bad person, I normally won’t let my MC enter into a relationship with that person. I can deal with a certain amount of rudeness and I enjoyed the M(organ) path in the Wayhaven Chronicles, at least in Book Two, that brough the sexy. But if a character consistently treat other people like dirt or, even worse is straight up evil in a way that leaves no clear way for redemption(unlike say, “ambigiously evil” J in the Lost Heir trilogy) and moments of kindness for that character; I generally stay for away from trying out that RO path. And cruel and/or treacherous behavior, like stabbing the MC in the back(whether literally or metaphorically) is also a no-no, so I completely understand all the hate for Darcy and knowing what I know now, I don’t think I’d ever be able to pick them as a RO.

One thing I’m curious about however, is that many of the people who have stated their dislike of M and similar characters, have stated no dislike for charcters like Winter and Manerkol. I’m just wondering if that dislike is due to you never having played Soul Stone War or the Evertree Saga or it’s just that you think that those characters respective brands of evil and crueltyare less bad or annoying than the rudeness of characters like M? And if it’s the second reason, I’m curious about what makes that rudeness worse than the evilness and cruelty of characters like Manerkol and Winter?

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There are absolutely clues left throughout the story that hint at Winter possibly having a truly f-ed up backstory and childhood!!! It’s not confirmed, but if you put two and two together, it makes a lot of sense (the way changelings are conceived is really messed up, and how Hayden talks about their parents and parents in general says a lot, for example, but there’s more!)
Also, I personally don’t care about their sexual prowess. I like their clay form and androgynous standard appearance most, actually. It’s almost gotten a bit annoying how the narrator always assumes, it’s mostly the sex which draws me in. It’s not that.

Yes, I can! :slight_smile: Give me a few to prepare the screenshots!

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That’s interesting and something I haven’t noticed. Can you give me some more examples of that?

Heavy Spoiler alarm for Sordwin and Lux!

Okay, let’s start with what the lore says about the origin of changelings (monstrology entry on doppelgangers):

Summary

The keyword here is unwitting humans, which basically means changelings are the result of r*pe (by deception). Not only that, to make things worse, changelings are born in their unchanged state. Hayden themself confirms this and it’s safe to assume they’re not lying here:

Summary

In another path, Hayden phrases it a bit differently and calls it how they look “underneath”. The entry on changelings in the book about races says:

Summary

So, we have confirmation of the true appearance of changelings.

If we put of all this together, it is highly likely that Hayden was conceived by r*pe, like most changelings probably, and their mother had no fucking idea until she saw them for the first time. Imagine being in place of that woman, that’s so incredibly disturbing, some true Eraserhead shit. But - the worst thing is, it’s not the changelings fault! There’s no reason to believe they’re born as bad people, but considering the circumstances of their birth and conception it’s not hard to imagine them easily being rejected by their mothers. And then they grow up and are shunned and mistrusted by society (which the entry confirms), of course most of them would turn to a life of crime! What else is there? It’s what they’re actually good at with their particular skill set.
There aren’t even others like them they can relate to, because they are so rare!

It’s no wonder, a changeling would start hating humans and using them! Humans (and other races) were the ones who treated them like shit first!

Moving on, another curious detail about Hayden. While they won’t get tired emphasizing how they can be “whatever you want”, their true appearance is NOT one of those options! They don’t show you their unchanged face right until they think you’re dying anyway, and if you ask me why, it’s because you won’t be able to tell anyone about it, reject them for it or make fun of it.

Summary

That IS their true face, the word used for it is “hideous”. Of course they wouldn’t show it to you, when all their power lies in their carefully crafted, androgynous beauty that is designed to lure people in. But it could also possibly show vulnerability and maybe… maybe… even a small touch of self-consciousness.

Okay, but maybe Winter actually had a nice mom, who was totally into doppelgangers and was looking forward to having a changeling kiddo, right? Well, there’s this exchange:

Summary

But even more telling the first paragraph:

Summary

And there’s always little moments that speak of untold stories and bitterness like this one, which even the narrator picks up on (it’s their reply when asked if they often impersonate their boss / Imperion):

Summary

Is there a lot of fan theory on my part involved? Yes! Of course! But it’s not like I’m pulling this out of nowhere, it’s all right there and makes a lot of sense.

Having said all that: I don’t care. I don’t believe Hayden can be “saved” at this point and I don’t want to save them and have them fall victim to the “saved by the power of love” cliché. They’re evil now, and that’s fine. Loving them doesn’t make me a bad person; they’re not real.

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I didn’t saw your pseudo last time. Make sense for someone who love Winter ^^

Me, yeah… I don’t like him. But yeah, I do seem to recall that there were hints a out his past. And yeah, as a shapeshifter, he was somehow alone his entiere life.
But a tragic backstory won’t redeem him. He is a chaotic evil evil character who kill those he don’t like or those he deemed to weak to live. Even in a path where he isn’t your ennemy, it’s pretty clear that the guy isn’t trustworthy and would backstab you in a blink. I don’t like him and I can’t respect him…
Make him a really good antagonist thought. And I really enjoy him as a bad guy. Really great character (and i hate him so much ^^).

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I don’t think unwitting necessarily has to mean rape. It could also mean unwitting in the sense that the one who had sex with the doppelganger was unaware that the person he or she had sex with was a doppelganger, which although it could involve rape, certainly doesn’t have to involve rape(I suspect most doppelgangers can be seductive when they want to). And although that means there is some kind of decpetion involved, I’d say that calling it rape is quite a bit too strong. But apart from that, you make some good points about there probably being quite a bit of trauma in Winter’s life. And I strongly suspect that whatever lead to O and Winter getting that tattoo was far from pleasant.

However, like Lordlorac, I certainly don’t feel that any of this excuses Winter’s evil behavior, although it at least partly explains it. I, for one, would actually like Winter to be sort of redeemable. Although that wouldn’t make me try the captain as a RO, it would make me a bit more interested in having friendly relations with him. I do enjoy stories when you can make friends out of enemies, at least as long as it doesn’t feel like too much of a stretch.

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Not me, I can tell you that right now. I dislike all three of them, for their own separate reasons.

That said, I’ve been playing my SSW character as someone who never wanted to be acquainted with the party, doesn’t really like any of the party, sure as shit never wanted to be dragged along on this quest that Daelynn used a life debt against them to force (hell, were it not for the fact that Daelynn has magic and my character can barely even fight, she wouldn’t have even gone along with the life debt in the first place, because she’s not the kind of person to put stock in “owing people your life”), has grown to utterly despise the gods, and while yes, Manerkol has done her a few bad turns already, he’s so far the only person actively trying to overthrow said gods - which, after her own experiences dealing with them, sounds pretty damn appealing to my character right now. Not enough to romance the guy, he’s still an asshole, but if a position were to open up in his ranks, she might be sorely tempted to apply, let’s say.

So, in that respect, I’m kinda Team Manerkol right now.

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