I think the issue here isn’t necessarily how big an age gap should be but rather who’s at the either end of the age gap. The age gap itself is from what I’ve scrolled down this thread, not an issue to most people but rather how old the characters are.
If it’s an 18 year old with a 15 year old, most people would be creeped out because the 18 year old would be considered as an adult and the 15 year old would be the minor. The adult can coerce the minor to do things the minor doesn’t want to and there is a power imbalance between the two. But, the thing with this example is that while the relationship can be seen as icky by many people, the age gap between the two of them can be considered as “okay” or “vanilla” in terms of age gaps because the gap between the 2 people are 3 years.
Another example would be a 30 year old and 40 year old. Most people wouldn’t question or feel disgusted by the relationship. This is because, although the relationship has a huge age gap (around a 10 years apart) most would be fine with the two dating because in the relationship, there’s a balance in the relationship. The older one has no power over the younger one and both see each other as equals. It is also harder for the older one to abuse the younger one because the younger one has enough experiences and wouldn’t be easier to manipulate compared to let say an 18 year old.
Pretty much, it’s only the USA where you’ll find people thinking it’s their personal business what adults are doing, although it’s worth mentioning that the current President met his wife when she was a teenager.
Adults with adults is always fine. Forget about things like “power over the other” because that exists in all relationships. People just need love!
Well, it’s not always as simple as that — there is a reason why university professors are not allowed to have relationships with their adult students, supervisors with their employees, and so forth.
Personally, RO and MC must be over 20. Also 10 years as a age gap, tops. ( it doesn’t matter if the younger part is mature enough) I am old enough to be cynical about age differences, the dynamic between the characters HAVE to reflect the complexity of the age gap if it is more than a decade (essential to make the romance believable, even when one of them is a vampire) but again, this is only my personal opinion
I think this is the tread where I first read about the ‘half age +7’ rule, and having been using and considering it for a few years now, I really think it works very well.
That seems a bit hyperbolic. Sure it might be more normal in the US, but it happens everywhere, all the time, and definitely in the rest of the western world.
No. As a girl, when I was in high school I would see other girls date men that were well out of high school. Their relationships were legal, but there was no “love”. These men went for them because they had power over them. These girls were young and naive and the men saw that it and took advantage of it. Not all relationships are pure.
The gist of it seems to be that if you take your age, divide it by two and add seven to the result, you’ll get the youngest age you can date without it being creepy.
For instance, the youngest partner for a 22-year-old would be 22/2 = 11, 11 + 7 = 18 years old, according to that rule.
Yes, it really is as simple as that. I know, I know. I’m hideously old-fashioned, but I believe all adults are adults, so any consenting relationship is perfectly fine.
As for kids in high school dating older people, that’s about kids, not adults.
As for professors being prohibited from dating university students, that’s only at a few US campuses, and the same goes for some companies. They can put in whatever rules they want to, including making people wear a red hat on Tuesday.
As far as I am aware, the only adult relationships LEGALLY prohibited are in the military between soldiers of differing ranks, and again, that’s only while you’re active duty. Retire from the military and it becomes perfectly legal.
Even for psychologists and psychiatrists, dating a patient is usually classified as unethical, not strictly illegal, although I believe it is actually illegal in a few places like New York. Oddly though, it’s perfectly legal (and ethical) to date your oncologist though.
As for writing games and real-life and what age differences between romantic partners that people consider cool or not-cool, that’s entirely subjective. Joe Biden (and Emmanuel Macron ) certainly married someone far younger than he is, and some folks are cool with that and some not. YMMV.
I know, I know, I’m a weird neo-puritanical American… but I think the way the rest of your post jumps around between “perfectly fine,” “perfectly legal,” and perfectly ethical suggests that it really might not be quite as simple as that.
Most of the discussion in this thread hasn’t been around what’s legal, so I can agree with you that most relationships with severely skewed power dynamics are perfectly legal and could still think they’re unethical, or un-fine, or (the main topic of the thread) not comfortable material for a self-immersion game.
My own personal view on the last point is that the wider the age gap gets, the more space and thought the author ought to give to exploring its consequences, whether unhealthy or positive. A great game could be made about a May-December romance, or a relationship with a skewed power dynamic that includes a big age gap… but the author had best be prepared to do it justice, not just throw it in as one option among many without any difference in consequence. I’m about to write at least one such relationship into my own game, and we’ll see how well I do.
Not just the US. It’s caused enough problems elsewhere that other countries have been looking to US-like solutions.
If there’s a 10+ years agegap, both characters are of legal age AND both have the same/close experience or better ‘awareness’ then it’s fine.
But if either character is completely blue-eyed towards anything relationshippy or has complete wrong expectations, and the other is aware of that and uses it for their own ends, NO.
If the other is cautious about it however, it can work.
In short: Whenever one character abuses the others inexperience/naivity/etc to their own ends, it’s a NO
I agree with a lot of what’s been said. My addition would be to consider context, cultural and fictional.
Fictionally, an elf may have a life span >250years. So, what’s 40yrs of age difference? In Greek mythology, Zeus was all but ageless but slept with mortal women. In sci-fi, a cyborg or AI pleasure-bot (Westworld) might be centuries old. Sorry if this seems nitpicky, but speculative fiction (sci-fi, fantasy, horror) seems to make up a large part of CoG/HG. (I should also have included a vampire example.)
Culturally, life span has to be considered. Even in first-world countries, two hundred years ago, average age could fall somewhere in the 30s. Biological sexual maturity was a prime consideration. The cultural Christian aesthetic defines much of the prevalent sexual taboo, even in secular circles. But, let’s not forget, it’s more or less founded on the marriage of a girl as young as 13-14 (Mary) with a man in his 30s (Joseph). I’m not pro-incest or pro-pedophilia. I’m pro-context.
barely any of zeus’ ‘encounters’ were really consensual
the context of these games being fictional, thus using ‘cultural context’ as excuse to have a sexual encounter with a 13 year old is a major NO, no matter how much you may rage and rave and rant about ‘cultural context’.
True! And Zeus had a thing for animals too. In the Greek custom, it seems that, in the way that people were “above” animals, the gods were above people. So, a human killing an animal isn’t murder, but a human killing a human is. In the Greek tradition, gods didn’t always seem to morally or legally need consent from lesser life forms–people or animals. There’s no record of the Holy Spirit asking Mary’s permission before the immaculate conception.
Maybe I shouldn’t have entered into a heated conversation? I would think it’s apparent I’m not ranting, raving, or raging. As for the context of games being fictional, that cuts both ways. It’s not an excuse to do something, but it’s also not an excuse not to do something. It doesn’t actually happen either way. If the issue is too polar, you might consider it in the context of murder? There is a legal obligation in publishing–Game of Thrones had issues with this in the television series, but not the books. The ages of medieval marriages could be portrayed in text but not the screen. Sansa and Daenerys, for instance, were much younger than portrayed. I’m not vested in this argument. It’s just that, principally, “tolerance” seems to be very faddish–from place to place, time to time. Sorry if I’ve offended you in some way. @MeltingPenguins
You might want to re-read the story. Mary consents. Fiat mihi secundum verbam tuum… they’ve been writing songs about it for centuries. And there’s no textual evidence for the age of either Mary or Joseph. Despite one tradition that she was a teenager, that’s not “the” Western cultural aesthetic; an image search for “Madonna and child” will turn up a dozen adult Marys for every teen. If you want to take civilizational context seriously and not just wield it to be provocative, it’ll need a little more care than you’ve been showing…
(Slightly off topic, but it’s a bugbear) Despite what you see in ASOIAF and its like, in real life medieval marriages of girls that young were actually pretty rare! It was legal (with parental consent, I think), but generally happened in cases where it was really necessary for solidifying a political marriage or something, as in the case of Eleanor of Aquitaine. In Tudor England, the average age of first marriage was actually in the mid-twenties, and they considered old men marrying teenagers to be creepy (they were also well aware that very young mothers were more likely to have health issues in pregnancy)
My words (you quoted them) say that the Holy Spirit didn’t ask permission. The passage you refer to in Luke has Mary speaking to an angel. Gabriel. Moreover, the response is to a command, not a question. Paintings also depict Jesus as fair skinned. Consensus, popularity, and tradition aren’t grounds for truth. And, there are extra-biblical texts which suggest Mary’s age. I am showing care. I am not trying to be provocative. People who find provocation might not be trying to understand or engage. I’m now also sorry if I’ve offended you. I just wanted to talk about something interesting. @Havenstone
@Scribblesome That’s interesting. I wonder if that age doesn’t decrease the further back you go? Do you know? Daenerys was married into a nomadic tribe. I know, from my own time in the Middle East, that tribal custom revolves largely around age of fertility. I’ve always wondered if Sansa’s North weren’t more an allusion to Russia rather than Tudor England–vast frozen wasteland. Do you know anything about the marriage customs of that region? Thanks for taking my words at face value.
) certainly married someone far younger than he is, and some folks are cool with that and some not. YMMV.
Mary consents. Fiat mihi secundum verbam tuum… they’ve been