Forum feedback decorum?

[Mosie]

My only problem is this: it’s very hard to have any sort of conversation with games that are considered the golden children of the forum. Which is why it felt good to voice certain opinions and get a discussion going without anyone coming to attack you for once.
Also I didn’t know there was a limit to how much certain things could be discussed, but I guess I’ll keep it in mind.

A warning to keep conversation from straying off could also have been good. Getting overemotional about something can lead to politeness being thrown out of the window, alas mean quips about authors, but that shouldn’t applies to the media. If I say “that book’s writing was bad” it doesn’t mean “the author is stupid.”
Plus I think in that thread multiple people have said multiple times “gushing is great, but if you didn’t like x you shouldn’t be afraid to say it” which is exactly what’s happening.
Some people are scared to name the bad/neutral opinions because of backlash, not because they’ve got nothing to say.

Also moderation should be applied both ways. Call-out the rowdy people straying from the topic at hand while also calling out those who step over boundaries to defend a point.
If I need to cool off and realize wow this is just fictional shenanigans, those who subtly call you stupid or worse should also be told as much.

[dreamofeden]

After thinking about this for a bit, I think an issue with discussion on the forum (especially in comparison to reddit) is that there aren’t really any good places to talk about games without them being considered feedback. There isn’t really a solution, since that’s how the forum works, with authors creating all the threads for their works, but it probably does stifle discussion to a degree.

Like, if someone asks “is x game worth it? what did other people think?” in the discussion thread, it feels kind of wrong to say that you didn’t enjoy it because of y or z element. Even on release threads its a bit awkward to give a negative opinion in between the “congrats”.

From a consumer side, its hard to trust whether people are giving honest opinions and a game is really that good, or if you’re only getting responses from fans.

On reddit, the perceived distance from the company and authors (even if both are present) seems to yield a lot more neutral opinions on the games that feel like fair reviews.

Not a slight against the forums, just that it feels like the forums serve a different purpose. The forums are a place to interact with authors and provide feedback, while reddit feels like a better place for open discussion and critique/analysis.

[Havenstone]

@dreamofeden

The forums are a place to interact with authors and provide feedback…

This is true of 99% of Hosted Games authors and about 4% of CoG authors. I think that needs to be taken into consideration as well. If mods treat threads on CoG games whose authors have never popped up here the same way they do HG WIPs whose authors are constantly present, it’ll inevitably look like they’re protecting the company from bad reviews rather than the authors from demoralizing, non-constructive feedback.

As a one-time mod myself, I know that the intent is to create a kind space for authors. But for CoG games where the authors aren’t forum members or known lurkers, I think we’d be well served to let readers vent their frustrations here rather than nudging those reactions to reddit.

(For my part, harsh reviews of XoR are always welcome here. The only unkindness that gets under my skin at all, in keeping with my general resemblance to GRR Martin, is people speculating that my game is abandoned or will never be finished. )

[Jacic]

@Havenstone

keeping with my general resemblance to GRR Martin

Nah, to be that you’d have to keep promising a new book, while at the same time bragging about all the other many things you’re working on APART from that next book to well and truly side track any hope of the series ever being done. (GRR Martin has zero interest or motivation to finish his series now in my opinion (and he really should just say so), where as you do ) In saying that, I’m glad I don’t get GRR Martin style hate mail regarding updates (and hope you don’t either :P)

[AletheiaKnights]

That article about Martin loses a lot of its punch when you realize it’s nine years old, and the book fans were nagging him about still hasn’t been released.

[EvilChani]

@Mosie

it’s very hard to have any sort of conversation with games that are considered the golden children of the forum. Which is why it felt good to voice certain opinions and get a discussion going without anyone coming to attack you for once.

Yes. On the Wayhaven thread, in particular, I noticed more than one newbie show up since b3’s release, happy they could share their frustrations without anyone attacking them. And that’s the thing–no one was attacking the “sunshine and roses” crowd, either. It’s a discussion, so we discuss.

As for things being repeated… I get what you’re saying @ViIsBae. Things do end up getting recycled, sometimes because new people show up and bring up topics. Or things the author(s) say publicly are pointed out to people on a thread. This is something that happens in AMR as well, due to the author rewriting the b2 demo. When there is no new information, conversation either dies or people find something to talk about. And in threads where you get to where you feel like you “know” the other members, you tend to find things, in which case you dredge up old topics or find new tidbits to share/discuss. When no one is interested in talking about stuff, they just stay silent and it fades until someone else has something to say. That’s the nature of the beast.

@Havenstone

This is true of 99% of Hosted Games authors and about 4% of CoG authors. I think that needs to be taken into consideration as well.

Agreed. In threads where it’s known that authors don’t interact with fans or read posts, then I don’t consider them to be “feedback” threads. I consider them to be discussion threads, in which case, decorum is–and should be different. What’s more, when feedback such as “the game is broken in this place” or “my imported save does not reflect my choices” is simply ignored, then it’s not much of a feedback thread. Ignoring players who don’t like prose or are unhappy about plotting (or lack thereof) is one thing–ignoring players who are pointing out game-breaking issues is… well, it makes it clear that you may as well be talking to the wind. So you may as well use the thread to talk to other players, since the author completely ignores the thread.

@Havenstone

But for CoG games where the authors aren’t forum members or known lurkers, I think we’d be well served to let readers vent their frustrations here rather than nudging those reactions to reddit.

I totally agree with this. If that means separating feedback and discussion, so be it. The feedback thread can be for bugs only and discussion is there to vent or gush, whatever rows your boat, as long as you don’t try to silence those who disagree with you.

@Havenstone

(For my part, harsh reviews of XoR are always

If I can ever convince myself that your game won’t depress the hell out of me, I’ll be happy to play and give feedback! I respect the fact that you are very active here and willing to talk to members. There aren’t many authors like that–only a handful I can think of–and I don’t think we all tell you all enough just how much we appreciate that.

@AletheiaKnights

That article about Martin loses a lot of its punch when you realize it’s nine years old, and the book fans were nagging him about still hasn’t been released.

All I can think of is Robert Jordan, and it saddens me. Though at least he let BS finish his series.

[Jacic]

@AletheiaKnights

That article about Martin loses a lot of its punch when you realize it’s nine years old, and the book fans were nagging him about still hasn’t been released.

Yeah, it’s been over 10 years now of “I’m doing heaps of writing on the new book” with no sign of it appearing, where as there’s other shiny new distractions like house of the dragon popping up. As I said, I think he actually has zero interest in the project any more (no motivation and no longer needs the money) but for some reason won’t say so and hand it off to someone else to attempt to complete. Still a bit crap of fans to write him messages telling him to finish the books before he dies because he’s old now. I’d say that’s definitely the wrong way of giving feedback

@EvilChani

All I can think of is Robert Jordan

Yes, that series was a fav of mine growing up but I gave up on it as the books slowed coming out. I’m glad it was finished one way or another. Seems to be a theme with these really long complicated series that authors run out of steam to get them completed. It’s on my list that I need to finish rereading the whole series and then read BS’s books that I never got to.

[Havenstone]

@EvilChani

In threads where it’s known that authors don’t interact with fans or read posts,

We’re mostly on the same page, but I think it’s worth noting that lurker-authors do exist, and we won’t always know whether they’re reading our discussions. I don’t think mods/fans should treat all threads as if the authors are lurking and might be disheartened by the discussion there; that would be too limiting to readers who want a space to talk candidly about what the books made them feel/think. But nor should we be surprised if a largely silent author turns out to be reading and affected by the forum conversation, as seems to have been the case with Wayhaven.

In the internet age, authors with any level of readership are a click away from being drowned in negative comments on their work. We all have to figure out how to deal with that, whether it’s “don’t read the comment section” or armoring up with “not everyone will like my creative choices and that’s OK” at all times. Not all approaches will work for all authors, though; we can’t tell everyone “tough up” when this might be hitting them in their weakest spot. And as noted, HG authors don’t have the option to entirely ignore the forums like CoG/HC authors can.

So I’m sympathetic with the policy of closing a CoG Forum thread when an author requests it. They’re the stewards of their energy and enthusiasm levels, to say nothing of their mental health. If the author doesn’t show any sign of engaging with their threads, though, I don’t think the kindness policy ought to be preemptively wielded against harsh reviewers.

Thinking back, again, to my mod days, we de facto allowed more rants about Zach Sergi’s work than games where the authors were regularly on the forum:

@Havenstone

Because [Heroes Rise is] so popular, the mods have tended not to rein in the language of the bashing as much as we might have for other authors who can’t console themselves by rolling in their mountain of fanart and royalty cash. (Or as we would have if Zach Sergi hung out on the forums, which I don’t believe he does.)

I hasten to add that this was never mod policy, just this mod’s perception of the dynamics at work back then. And in light of Zach’s reaction to the forums when he popped in here,

@ZacharySergi

Mostly, I just can’t fathom why people feel entitled to be so MEAN.

maybe it’s worth reflecting on the culture that created. Especially for those of us who want authors to engage with the forum conversation.

It’s also worth noting that the post Zach was recoiling from (samples: “my eyes bled a little,” “wasting more of my time”) is still up there – nobody censored it for unkindness. Same with a more recent set of harsh comments on another WIP with much less engagement – only the rudest and most ad hominem comments further down the thread got a flag upheld.

It’ll take a while for the discourse to recover from the Sins of the Sires meltdown and the prospect of

@zhirzzh

creating what you could term “positivity only” threads

But notwithstanding my continuing concerns about mods taking the anti-troll playbook and applying it to non-troll forum members, in general I’d say I don’t see signs of moderators shutting down negative feedback nearly as much as I see dogpiles by fans. (And those happen on the subreddit too.) That’s on us, and the kind of dialogue culture we want to create.

@EvilChani

If I can ever convince myself that your game won’t depress the hell out of me

Don’t work too hard on that. It has grace notes, but there’s a lot of bleakness there.

@EvilChani

I respect the fact that you are very active here and willing to talk to members.

I’ve been a fan here as long as I’ve been a writer. I’ve also dipped into reddit.

[ViIsBae]

@Havenstone

I’ve been a fan here as long as I’ve been a writer. I’ve also dipped into reddit.

I think this is an important part of understanding things in from an author perspective as well. Not to say that every author needs to or should be active within the community here, but in my experience I feel like it does help. Knowing the community, engaging with the people who are reading your work, is invaluable in my eyes. Not because it will help or should help shape the image of the project in most cases, but because it’s important (to me at least) to open up a direct dialogue with people and explain why you chose to make certain creative choices.

Again, it helps people see that their is a person behind the screen. It helps them see that their comments are being heard. However, at that point, it’s also up to people leaving the feedback to realize that if the author chooses not to use the feedback it’s not because they’re ignoring them. In my case, feedback gets considered greatly, but that doesn’t automatically mean I’m going to put it into action. I’ve listened to it and will decide if it’s a direction I would like to take my game.

Back to the other point, I do understand why some people choose not to interact here on the forum. There’s been a couple of tough strides where I’ve had people say that beginning flirtatious dialogue was cringe, people pointing out scientific errors I knew for a fact weren’t there (it’s literally my field of study and I make sure to research things before writing them), to people assuming I was taking player feedback to make sure I sold the most amount of units possible (if I wanted to do that I would literally just write porn). Needless to say, it can be difficult at times and there have been moments where I’ve had to step away.

But through all that, I’ve also had moments where I’ve learned certain things, such as not to worry as much about replayability as I was before. Not that there’s not going to be incentive to do multiple playthroughs, but people care more about interacting with as much of the game as possible more than they do about having an experience they can go back and replay countless times over. That is one of the many things I’ve come to the conclusion to through the feedback I’ve gotten and I’m actively rewriting things in my game to help give that experience because, at the end of the day, it doesn’t change the vision for the story at all and it’s something that will make it more worthwhile for people in the long wrong. I would’ve never come to that conclusion if I hadn’t interacted with people on the forum. I’ve also had discussions with people and have been able to explain some of the more missed details in the game through the WiP thread as well.

This is all to say, I think as an author, being active here is much more beneficial than if you’re not. But I also understand it’s a case by case basis.

[EvilChani]

@Havenstone

I don’t think mods/fans should treat all threads as if the authors are lurking and might be disheartened by the discussion there; that would be too limiting to readers who want a space to talk candidly about what the books made them feel/think. But nor should we be surprised if a largely silent author turns out to be reading and affected by the forum conversation, as seems to have been the case with Wayhaven.

It really did surprise me that she requested the thread be shut down, because she hasn’t posted there in ages (even the links to her weekly tumblr updates), and hasn’t engaged with anyone on the forums for years. But I get what you’re saying. I’m really wondering if there should be separate threads for games–one for feedback and bug reports (with the feedback being toned down to whatever level the author requires to function, even if it’s sunshine/roses and saying nothing critical at all) and another for people to talk candidly about the game or series. That way, people can stay where they’re most comfortable.

@Havenstone

In the internet age, authors with any level of readership are a click away from being drowned in negative comments on their work.

Very true. And an avalanche of negativity is not fun to deal with. I’m not sure it’s this way for everyone, but as a consumer of IF, I’m far more likely to take the time to word complaints and criticisms more diplomatically (well, I thinkI’m more diplomatic) when there’s some sort of engagement between the author and the fans and there is at least some level of acknowledgment of the complaints and criticism. If I’m just going to be ignored and the author isn’t even around to discuss things with us, then I see it as a conversation between whoever is on the board, so there’s no need to proverbially blow smoke up anyone’s ass or lie and say everything is perfect and great. Just my two coppers.

By the way, good job… I’ve been around here since 2018 and had never read the guidelines. I clicked on your kindness policy link and got the badge for reading the rules. I always try to avoid instructions like the plague, unless I’m building Ikea furniture, anyway.

@Havenstone

nobody censored it for unkindness. Same with a

Yikes. I can’t blame Zach, and feel bad for MoonlightBomber, who handled it quite well. I actually worry that the negativity on the AMR thread is what chased Adam away and made him feel the need to rewrite the demo. The vitriol about the Arcadia crowd was harsh, even if it was understandable. I thought it was fine as is, though that’s probably because I spend all my time wanting my mage to burn Leon to a crisp. So it’s all perspective, really.

@Havenstone

in general I’d say I don’t see signs of moderators shutting down negative feedback nearly as much as I see dogpiles by fans.

I agree with this, mostly, though I’ve seen a two mods in particular delete or threaten to delete comments that were flagged simply because the one flagging them didn’t like the opinion. Others take the time to actually read more than the one or two “problem” posts to read the room, so to speak, and just try to calm everyone down a bit. That’s appreciated, even if it conflicts with the part of me who thinks sometime the “kids just need to fight it out and figure it out on their own”.

@Havenstone

Don’t work too hard on that. It has grace notes, but there’s a lot of bleakness there.

I mean, I, the Forgotten One is pretty damned bleak at points, and it’s probably my absolute favorite IF game out now. That will all go to hell if Bacon kills Milon, though. So I think I just need a better read on the kind of bleakness that’s there.

@ViIsBae

In my case, feedback gets considered greatly, but that doesn’t automatically mean I’m going to put it into action

But you make sure to acknowledge it when people give feedback. Like Havenstone, you engage with the people reading your IF. And, in turn, we try not to drive you crazy asking for updates.

[Zyrios]

Firstly, I have no idea why the site is trying to claim that I made this thread, but apparently it is, and that’s why I’ve suddenly been tagged in it. XD

But more seriously now, this actually fits in rather perfectly with why I made the ROs You Hate thread when I first joined - because as you say, I got the sense that such discourse was considered unwelcome around here, for some reason. There was no other thread in its vein. I wound up being a pathfinder for people to be able to safely say, “Hey, I think this character kinda sucks actually,” without running the immediate risk of the rest of the fandom coming down on them for it.

To be certain, there have still been arguments, and several have gotten out of hand to the point of necessitating moderator action, but I imagine prior to that thread existing, it might have been worse - I wouldn’t dare try and say that I don’t like A or M on any of the actual Wayhaven threads, that’s suicide.

Recently, in the ROs You Hate thread, I’ve started just kinda playing through games I’ve purchased (mainly Hearts Choice games since they tend to be quick and easy to play through) and actively giving my two cents on how I’ve perceived the ROs in those games, and it’s been an interesting thing, giving an in-depth hot take on a character and seeing how the crowd responds to it. We tend to go in circles about the same ROs over and over again, which is only the fault of those stories for being so popular that new folks come in and talk about those ROs, not knowing they’ve already been talked about to death, so my little self-imposed project was kind of for giggles, but also to try and provide some fresh conversation as well, and so far it’s been received pretty nicely.

So if you ask me, I’d say someone oughta take the plunge and make a general feedback thread, or something like it. I made my thread with no way of knowing if it would even be tolerated, and look where it’s at nowadays. You really don’t ever know unless you try.

@Havenstone

Same with a more recent set of harsh comments on another WIP

Oh good lord. You know, there was a comment on my thread not too-too long ago that sorta suggested that some folks were using it as a means to try and force authors to do what we wanted, and while I jumped in and clarified pretty quick that such an accusation could not have been further from the truth of what I was trying to do, some of those comments I’m seeing are making me wonder if that’s not part of what provoked the claim in the first place.

@Havenstone

If you mean a thread called “General Feedback,” rather than a game-specific one, that feels a little too scattershot to me…

Yeah, fair point. I dunno, maybe if published stories had a thread created alongside their announcement threads where readers could give their feedback of the finished product? That’s something I’ve seen a lot, is an initial bevy of “congratulations!” followed in short order by, “this part of the story didn’t gel with me for reasons (x, y, z),” and I feel like separating the two conversations could be a good thing. Let the author have their kudos in one thread, and let them peruse the other to see what they might tweak for future stories, that kind of thing.

Not to be confused with the WIP threads, of course, which discuss tweaks while the story is still being written.

[Havenstone]

@Zyrios

make a general feedback thread

If you mean a thread called “General Feedback,” rather than a game-specific one, that feels a little too scattershot to me…

The “ROs you hate” and “Disliked Tropes/Elements” threads look from my perspective like they cover much of the scope we would need for talking about things that we dislike in CSGs. And I think both have been helpful in giving people a space to vent with less risk of being dogpiled. (So thanks!) If they don’t cover all the necessary ground, then maybe another more topical thread on that model would be helpful?

[EvilChani]

I’m still leaning towards two threads for released games/series. I am afraid that genuine bug reports end up getting buried under requests for help (“how do I trigger that character to stab me in the spleen?”) and gushing or complaining, especially in games where there’s a lot of active discussion.

Maybe use the announcement thread for bug reporting only and have one that’s consumer discussion for the game (could combine it into one for series as well, so like for SoH, there’s a single discussion board and separate “announcement” boards when a new one is release). For WIP boards, I think it should all go into one and we should all be a bit more careful about how we give criticisms so as not to make the author go running for the hills. I noticed in that one thread you linked to, Kaelyn (I think it was Kaelyn) asked the author if they were cool with negative feedback before unloading. A good way to do it, I think.

@AletheiaKnights

“Genuine bug reports” should be sent to

They’ve been sent, and still exist. I was kind of hoping that maybe even the absentee authors would pay more attention if a thread existed to report problems. Then again, if they’re ignoring officially reported bugs, they’d probably ignore those reported on the board, too.

[AletheiaKnights]

“Genuine bug reports” should be sent to support@choiceofgames.com, not posted on the forum.

[Zyrios]

@EvilChani

For WIP boards, I think it should all go into one and we should all be a bit more careful about how we give criticisms so as not to make the author go running for the hills. I noticed in that one thread you linked to, Kaelyn (I think it was Kaelyn) asked the author if they were cool with negative feedback before unloading. A good way to do it, I think.

I agree. As a general rule, while I do tend to come out with both barrels in my thread and if a story has really, genuinely gotten my goat, when it comes to WIPs I do try and restrain myself a bit, because I recognize how hard it is to actually write these things, and for someone with no intention of writing one himself, it would be galling of me to presume that I have the right to go for the jugular over something an author is writing that I disagree with.

I’m free to disagree, but I don’t have the right to pick a fight.

Why did I do that, why did I make it a rhyme, what is actually wrong with me

[EvilChani]

Okay, that unintentional rhyme and complaint about it gave me a good laugh for the night. And I enjoyed your rant about that game.

I hadn’t intended to get that game, anyway, but now I’m glad I didn’t. Like you, I tend to be more restrained on WIP threads (unless it’s for a sequel). But, also like you, I sometimes can’t help it. Price of Emeralds, in particular, left me foaming at the mouth. I didn’t want my MC to romance any of those asshats, I was just waiting for an opportunity for her to kill them all. And the cheating ex and their slam piece, too. That game really infuriated me, so I’ve stayed away. I may play updates, if I can mange to do so without bursting a blood vessel.

[Zyrios]

I have nothing but respect for Thourne, they’ve been such a champ about the negativity Price of Emeralds has been receiving, and frankly, they don’t deserve to have to wade through it like that. I know I was kind of harsh when I originally left my two cents on the WIP, but I’ve also tried to keep my criticisms strictly to things like, “I’m not sure how I’m supposed to want to romance my literal kidnappers who are threatening to ruin my life if I don’t play patsy to their heist scheme,” which is still a bit of a gut check, sure, but it’s directly related to the content of the story, and it’s a fair critique, to boot.

And even my angry rant about PPS was all things that directly occur in that story, I wasn’t just throwing wild haymakers, even as mad as I was.

But I also recognize that leaving such a spicy review on PPS’ announcement thread probably resulted in a few people being turned off from it, because at 45 hearts, it would be impossible for me to claim that nobody took my rant as a stern warning to stay away. And while I was far from the only dissenting opinion on Price of Emeralds, I’m pretty sure I was among the first of them. Hence why I feel like having a dedicated feedback thread and a dedicated kudos thread would be better, because it’ll let the story have a fair swing before people start seeing negative comments and basing whether to give the story a chance or not around said negative comments, or worse, going into the story already jaded by what someone else has said about it.

[HarrisPS]

For what it’s worth, I don’t think that post about Paranormal Preparatory School was rude or insulting or broke any rules. No one flagged it, and if it had been flagged, I wouldn’t have upheld it.

Regarding the WH thread that was closed, I would definitely be concerned if all threads about the series were gone, or if posts were being deleted from it willy-nilly. But there are places to carry on posting about the games. Please do!

As a mod my personal approach is that I don’t generally keep a close eye on whether people are being positive or negative unless I happen to notice a heated argument breaking out or something gets flagged (nor would I want to or have time to). A non-exhaustive list of when I do get concerned is when people get into insulting arguments, directly harangue authors, repeatedly speculate about updates and such, or post bigoted stuff. People can and do make posts that are critical of games and that’s fine; it’s also fine when people don’t agree with those criticisms and say so, as long as people aren’t insulting each other. if people are chatting about their different opinions (with exceptions if said opinions are bigoted, say) without being insulting, that’s a sign of healthy discussion and I really like seeing it.

As a player I like the chance to engage with creators and learn about how they’re doing what they’re doing, and share my opinions about some of the games I’ve played. I don’t do this as much as I’d like because, well, I need to clone myself in order to have time to take part in all the activities I want to. It is a really nice opportunity and I also very much enjoy understanding other people’s writing processes and what other players enjoy that I don’t, or that they don’t enjoy that I do.

As an author I massively appreciate the chance to engage with people about my games and to understand their feedback, good or bad. If someone were to say something they didn’t like about my games and people jumped on them and argued with them about it, I’d ask them not to. I understand if ChoiceScript authors don’t want to use the forum but when I’m asked about it, I advise people to go for it if they have the time and energy. Of course not everyone does but I find it really helpful to understand what’s important in these games to a particularly passionate subset of the player base. And to share processes with others and learn from them (that is slightly selfish on my part because I love IF discussions).

[Arsene_Bellerose]

Have you ever tried to wonderful world of if you don’t like it, feel free to drop it?

Don’t get me wrong. I didn’t like it and dropped it quickly. The writing is all over the place.

And if I go into a thread, my feedback will be about the things that can be improved.

But I would never dare, to simply go into a WIP thread and tell someone “I didn’t like how you wrote this!” and then leave.

What people like you need to understand, is that providing feedback, is about noticing a problem, and then ADVISING a solution for that problem.

That works for all the walks of life, btw.

Saying that you don’t like something, just because it doesn’t suit your personal tastes, is not feedback. Is whinning, and its shows a worrying of entitlment.

And I’m seeing it too much.

[vera]

Huh? You people throw the word entitlement around so much it’s hard to discern what it means now.