Forum feedback decorum?

Game Development Writing and Content
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I’ve rarely noticed comments like “people like you” or “you people” leading to productive discussion, though I’d be delighted to see an exception.

I am not sure that negative comments always have to include a solution; it’s sometimes nice if they do, but if for example I’m told “I played for an hour and I felt like nothing happened” or even more bluntly, “nothing happened when I was playing”, it may sting but it still gives me information. I can choose what to do with that information whether that’s shrugging and moving on, considering whether I want to shift things, replaying it myself with that in mind, or letting it sit for a bit and returning to it later.

If I said “I’m intentionally doing a slow pace, I’m happy with it as it is” and then a bunch of people jumped in and started insulting me over it, that would be a problem. But - especially if an author is actively looking for ways of improving their WIP, I don’t see much problem with blunt feedback that isn’t insulting an author.

But then we do roll on back to definitions, where some may see a comment as insulting where another may see the same comment as bracingly honest feedback. In general in these discussions and in WIP threads I try to read things in good faith and give the benefit of the doubt where possible. Sometimes (rarely) that isn’t possible, and sometimes the feedback just isn’t actionable, such as asking an author to reshape their game into something entirely different.

But mostly I see a desire from players to want to help improve a WIP, and/or they’re enjoying playing and want to chat about it and the characters. I don’t think I’m naive in thinking that’s the majority - at least if I am, it’s a naivety I’ll cheerfully keep.

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111

I think its possible to say that something didn’t work, but be unable to voice why or how to fix it. There have been cases where a character or scene is supposed to create a certain feeling in the reader and for whatever reason it just… doesn’t for me and I can’t say why exactly, just that it didn’t work.

Even if you don’t have a why or a solution, putting that out there might help other people recognize that they also feel that way, and those other people might have further insight or solutions.

There are definitely cases where people are complaining that a game isn’t a different genre or tone (Sword of Rhivenia discussions devolved to complaints about it not being historically accurate monarchy) but it feels a bit unfair to put all criticism that doesn’t offer a solution under the same umbrella.

This has always been… a weird middle zone for me. Asking an author to reshape their entire story into something different is over the line. There have been discussions I’ve seen that were incredibly uncomfortable to read, even as an outsider, since it seemed like people didn’t care about the work itself, they just wanted more authors to write x genre.

But there is sort of a zone (primarily on release threads rather than WIP threads) where unactionable criticism is acceptable since its less targeted at the author and more at potential readers. Once a game is published, often times, its beyond the point where any changes will be made aside from bug/grammar fixes and code optimizations. Even though the author is likely to end up reading the comment, as long as there aren’t any personal attacks, I believe having a place to discuss the game, both positives and negatives, is beneficial to the overall choicescript community.

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112

From what I could you see, several of your comments in the Farika the alchemist thread were called out for being blatantly rude and actually flagged for it. You might disagree that they deserved to be flagged, but calling out other people for not, in your opinion, giving feedback the right way without at least acknowledging that you yourself have been accused of that yourself and at least trying to explain why you don’t think it deserves that criticism comes off a little like the pot calling the kettle black tbh.

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113

I totally agree that it’s also good to have places to discuss published work and likes and dislikes, and that it’s for a different purpose. It seems like that kind of discussion, along with things like “I’m confused by X” or “how do I do Y” tends to congregate on release threads - which seems like a reasonable place for them as it may be more visible for newcomers.

I think series blur the “feedback for authors” and “discussions for other players” line a bit because although an individual instalment is a completed work in itself, commentary may have more potential to influence sequels.

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114

You should learn to be less easy to read. Because this failed attempt at trying to make me eat my words, is truly sad.

But I was expecting such reaction, after being called out, as you have been.

What I provided in Falrika, was advice, harsher or not.

What you are failing to provide, is advice.

Now is you are unable to tell the difference, that’s more of a you problem.

115

I am going to go and sit in the sunshine for a bit without my phone to look at pigeons because that is the sort of thing I like to do with my time, and I would dearly love it if the thread can go a few hours without insults.

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116

I feel like there is sort of this… awkwardness that comes with a small community. Any negative discussion about a work, even if its not intended as feedback and more of a review, will inevitably be seen by the author. The closeness to the authors (especially compared to fandoms people may be more familiar with) means people may have to be a bit more diplomatic than they’re used to since a lot of things feel more personal.

For people used to larger fandoms where they can do and say what they want knowing its unlikely anything they say will get back to the author, its probably a bit of an adjustment. Some of the less than helpful comments I’ve seen here are the norm on other platforms and fandoms, yet here they stand out more because its a smaller community where people are more respectful of each other.

Feels kind of like going to a formal event in a t-shirt and shorts. You wouldn’t yell or swear in an office workplace. Most pushback doesn’t seem to be against the idea of criticism itself, but rather the tone and context in which it is given. Same for positive comments, they’re not considered positive echo chambers unless they’re making pointed remarks towards detractors. And a lot of conflict seems to stem from not noticing the tone difference when interacting here versus twitter/reddit/tik tok.

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117

Another thing which should become the norm is to not engage with trolls. I didn’t think it was an issue in a place as small as this (compared to other platforms), but that’s clearly not true.
How can you say “provide feedback by writing examples as for how you think x could have happened” and then “actually don’t do it, because it’s whining. You want a game tailored after your tastes” which is 100% not what was happening.
Obviously there’s going to be a little of personal flavor when providing examples, but that’s what they are. Examples.
“Harsh feedback is fine when I do it because I know how to, unlike you” that’s a flame waiting to happen, so I guess I will start muting people. Keep toxicity to a minimum.

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118

That makes me feel better about it, but still, I always worry when I get intense like that, that I’ve just done the author a disservice because so many people saw me getting mad and took it as a sign that they should just not even bother with the story. I hate being that guy, I just like to have my piece be said, I don’t want to be the cornerstone of a person’s decision-making process.

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119

I will try not to escalate this further @HarrisPS .

However I will say that both the part about acknowledging what you’ve been criticized for, @Arsene_Bellerose and maybe also trying to explain why you think it didn’t deserve that criticism was both pieces of advice. You might not have liked that advice, but such was probably the case with the advice that you gave in that other thread as well. I guess in both cases it was a case of unasked for advice, which I guess something that is good for both you and me to keep in mind.

On a more general level, I’d say that when it comes to feedback and advice it’s just as important how the advice is given as what the actual advice is, which I think the advice/feedback in the other thread illustrates. If the advice or feedback comes off as overly rude, harsh or too forceful("you have to do this), then it generally won’t be considered to be useful feedback or advice. I do think avoiding all of those three pitfalls is an important part of giving useful and valuable feedback and advice and is something that we all should strive for, even if we don’t necessarily always succeed. I know that it’s something I strive for, at least and I’d like to think that most other members of the forum do that as well.

The thing is, though, as others have mentioned or at least implied, is that not all threads are mainly about giving feedback and advice, some threads are more about people giving their thoughts about and reactions to aspects of particular HGs or COGs or in HGs and COGs in general. The question is to what degree the principles about not being too rude, harsh or too forceful applies to those threads as well. I do think the part about not being rude is always important whatever the thread, but in threads like the one about ROs you hate, for instance, you could argue that the principle about not being too forceful or too harsh is too strict or at least needs to be loosened up a bit. I don’t necessarily think that there’s one right answer to this, but I do think that it’s an important question.

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120

Yeah no.

Most readers have no idea how to write a quality story, let alone an interactive novel. They usually won’t advise you how to fix something, and when they do, their advice will be questionable at best. They know what they liked and what they disliked, and that’s usually all you’ll get. You can take their opinions into account or not, but if you expect all feedback to just tell you what to write and never express a negative opinion otherwise, you’re gonna be disappointed one way or another.

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121

I think the posting of a demo presents an unspoken solicitation for feedback. Authors can (and I’d say should try to, in general), of course, request a specific kind of feedback for their games. Something I noticed both the Fallen Hero and Dragoon Saga author (and something I cribbed for myself here) is give general guidelines for the sort of feedback they want to obtain. Another thing I’ve done, to… varying results, I admit, is give specific guidelines every time I release a chapter or some update. I try to ask the players questions, or make them focus on one aspect of the update presented.

Be helpful, not hostile, I think.

It’s an impossibility to expect everyone to enjoy a story, and I’d think it pretty likely that even the people who do adore a particular one have some thoughts on ‘huh, this could have been done differently’, or ‘hey, have you thought about adding X to Scene Y?’. Everyone has thoughts, and personally, I think a big benefit of being able to share WIPs is the ability to have people share those thoughts and engage with them.

That’s not to say people should have free reign with what they can say, of course. An author is still a person, and I’d like to hope that in a community like this, we can expect everyone to be at least courteous to one another. To take personal examples:

“The writing here skips my MC, I think I should also be helping to defend my friend” is a pretty valid thing to bring up- you want the narrative to pay more attention to you, but going “I don’t care about this story except for this one character, so I’m dropping it since I can’t get with them” is… less so, I think.

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122

The HG and CoG author situation is different, even when the HG author is has transcended the normal HG support network and resource pools.

Therefore, I will briefly state that CoG and HC released works (in my opinion) should have open discussion threads where all aspects of a game should be fair game for that discussion.

Refocusing back on the HG WiP threads, I think one of the most important facts about WiP threads is being ignored (unintentionally, I am sure) in this current discussion.

The overriding and most indispensable fact about WiP threads is that they are required to be published with Hosted Games.

The stated purpose in the publishing requirements is that these threads be for feedback. The author can often curate and lead a discussion within the scope of feedback, but often will not, or can not do so.

These threads are forced on all HG authors, whether they embrace them, or not.

I feel it is important for the community, and the author to participate in that required thread, but lurkers from both authors and readers are a reality to deal with.

Both authors and the general reader community typically lack experience, skills, and knowledge on how to perform their “role” in getting a CS game published with Hosted Games.

Expectations about what a WiP thread “is and should be” … must be guided by this overriding fact.

A lurking author does not give license to the community to take over their WiP thread … and lurking authors do visit their threads more than is commonly believed by those that want more interaction.

A series thread (as there are for such titles as Fallen Hero) should be open for discussion, but it too should have some guidelines established for expectations. For example, Wayhaven’s thread is limited to non-spoiler discussion, while Fallen Hero’s is not.

Why?

Because the author is controlling the specifics of their engagement with the community.

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123

I’ve talked about this before, but today I wanted to touch on something else which I think might be fueling these slightly circular discussions:

Lack of closure.

Whether it’s on the course a series is taking or on feedback given, it seems like a lot of people are sitting on feelings they just can’t let go of. Since they haven’t got a clear answer from the author, whether that be an “I have read it, but no” or a “we’ll see,” they can’t move on and accept that this is the way things are. Especially in works where you might like a lot but hate some things, being left in that vacuum can be hard. I’ve been there at times and have tended to channel it into fanfic because it was for big companies that I was sure would not hear or heed my complaints.

Not so here. With the forum being small and some authors being active, it’s easy to feel ignored because SOME people are being heard, and SOME complaints are acted upon. So people keep talking, and talking, and rerunning the same arguments while going nowhere and alienating people in the process until someone snaps and it becomes an argument.

However, lack of closure is not everything.

I’ve had things like this happen to Fallen Hero, not on the forum, but in the discord. The amount of circular discussion around Herald or the Puppet was painful, people just kept rehashing things again and again because there was something that rubbed them the wrong way that they could not get closure on even with me the author being there and talking about it. There were just sections of the game that I wrote that were so off to them that they could not let it go, even though it soured relationships with other people on the server and they loved everything else. Sometimes disliking something becomes a bond that people have in common. So it’s not even always on the author being active, sometimes it’s just something people need to work through and figure out why it’s so important to them to keep bringing it up.

And sometimes it won’t end well.

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124

One of the more effective ways of delivering feedback is the “sandwich” method, which involves layering the negative feedback between two “slices” of positive feedback. At its most basic level, it looks like:

(Thing I liked)
(Things I didn’t like)
(Thing I liked)

Obviously this does not resolve all of the issues raised in this thread. However, it’s something to consider for those struggling with how to provide negative feedback in a constructive manner.

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125

Correct. And, from a writer’s perspective, I think offering a general impression is a good idea. As much as Price of Emeralds infuriated me, I’ll probably go play whatever update is given just to see where it goes, and because–right now–I’m invested in destroying all of the NPCs. When I stated that I found all the ROs to be awful, that was my impression. Maybe that’s the impression Thourne wanted, too.

You aren’t always aiming for a positive reaction–sometimes, you want a negative reaction, so you can go up from there. I also had a problem with the MC in that demo, because they are literally painted as a worthless doormat (or is that merely how they view themselves, and it affects everyone around them?).

My point is that, sometimes, just giving an impression or reaction to characters can be helpful, even if it’s “these characters are all assholes”. If a lot of people see it them same way, and that’s what the author intended, then they succeeded. If they were aiming for readers to like them, then they can see maybe some adjustments need to be made. Or they can say fuck it and do whatever they want. But at least they get a read on what sort of reactions they’re getting.

Just to clarify, are you saying that Wayhaven’s author is the one controlling the series thread to be spoiler-free for book 3? Is that normal when the book in question has been out for five months?

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126

Just want to point out that the WHC General Discussion isn’t created by the author. It was created by @rose-court to curate the FAQ and the like. They can DM the original poster to change the heading.

As far as I know, Miskha didn’t create a separate released thread for Book 3 because all of Book 3 discussion was on the WIP.

@EvilChani I advise DMing the original poster of the thread to make the general thread with spoilers. The thread was not created by Miskha.

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@resuri08 and @EvilChani:

Despite the thread being created by Rose, these types of threads are done in collaboration with the author, yes.

Just as I asked @malinryden if they wanted their discussion thread spoiler free or if spoilers are okay.

It is up to the author to decide when and whether these threads can have spoilers or not.

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128

This is very, very true. For example, I wanted my characters to be divisive, and I have had people deeply dlsilike/hate every single RO, as well as others loving them. It was valuable information!

Edit: And yep, as @Eiwynn said, we do have options for threads about our stuff, they are sometimes created by other people, especially release threads. Mine was no-spoilers at the start, but went free for all once enough time had passed.

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I always thought the General Thread was created to collate the FAQ with Mishka’s blessing but she was not involved when a thread is going to be spoiler free or not (that was my assumption during the creation process with Rose and few others (including myself) during that time).

Edit: It been years so… XD But it wouldn’t hurt to try asking if they could revised the thread to a normal thread since the WIP was closed imo.

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