I personally do hope it’s possible to not have ROs seem all same-y to the readers without making some of them be horrible people, because I can’t just force myself to make ROs I don’t like, it’s just too unpleasant for me to write.
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It’s entirely possible! I believe the problem I mentioned comes up when writers get too worried about making sure their character will be liked by all players. Among other things, this can manifest as an NPC being overly kind/perfect as @Sally_Forth mentioned. It can also manifest as an NPC always being in the right, especially if other characters always being on their side so it feels like the PC can’t argue with them, or if the PC isn’t given the option to do so.
It’s also possible to be samey by having every character be awful, or hostile to the PC in repetitive ways. Just as it’s one-note to have everyone being lovely to the PC in the same way, it’s also one-note when all the characters around a PC are constantly pushing them around in the same way, or get to rattle off witty zingers while the PC stands there looking sad.
As with all this stuff, romanceable characters that writers want to be appealing work best when they’re written from the ground up as fully-rounded-out human beings (or supernatural creatures, eldritch beasts, etc) and then the romance comes along with it. I love being a fan of my characters and showing their appealing sides, but for me their other elements are interwoven with their appeal.
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I wish I could do a Dragon Age cheat thing and give this +100 approval. Because this hits on all of my pet peeves when it comes to characterization. None of these things should happen, but they often do.
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I think a lot of the “ROs are bland” comes from a number of games feeling like the ROs are just there to tick the checkbox. So they weren’t anything more than whatever archetype the author wanted to sell and the player got the “reward” of one or two fairly generic romance scenes for ticking all the right check boxes.
The ROs weren’t really characters so much as prizes for the player to win if the played well or succeeded certain checks.
There was also the era of the obligatory “childhood friend RO” where a lot of games had a childhood friend that was romancable, but they were also either the mischievous type (that the MC had no say in at least being friends with) or pure and innocent (at least in comparison to the other characters) which got a little boring since the archetype played out the same way in every game.
I think the reason people are more interested in the toxic or awful ROs is because every time they appear, the author tends to have a very different take from other authors who have ROs that may be considered similar, leading to them feeling fresh every time.
TLDR: the “nice” characters tend to be taken in the same direction every time, while more toxic ones seem to have more unique directions
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Definitely one thing I don’t really like in any media is… When they often focus too much on the main couple, ignoring all the other possible friendship or platonic relationships.
If it’s a romance, I can turn a blind eye, but if it’s a fantasy or an adventure story then no. Personally I would like more dating stories about complicated platonic parent/child relationships (like I’m doing with the wip I want to do)
Personally I don’t mind if a Ro but slightly advanced opinions for context, but he has to be a character. But if they get an arc after being an asshole, even better
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I personally dislike elements added and then ignored.
“This direction is self explosive yet I cant kill the MC.”
Yes. Let the reader go that way if they desired to, cause it was already part of that story to begin with.
Dont ignore paths that got written in. Either delete it or allow it to go to that outcome the reader is expecting. The other is to address the element with NPC interactions, but applied naturally, not superficially.
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Wish I knew where’s the difference between NPC being overly kind, and the NPC respecting the MC (and trying to avoid setting them off). For some reason, I have way less scruples about making MCs who can be horrible. Go figure.
(Eldritch humans for the win.)
So the main problem with this isn’t the NPC being an old friend, but all the other stuff? Did I finally understood right? This has confused me for so long.
No outcomes the reader wasn’t expecting allowed?
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Game over scenarios that come out of the blue aren’t looked fondly upon, generally. Note that @jjc73 was referring to “self-explosive” options, meaning that the author writes “you can do this, but it would be, y’know, terribad if you did”, only to not let you do it by fiat when you try.
I’m reasonably certain they weren’t referring to unexpected surprises during the plot of the game.
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It depends on who you’re asking.
I think I’ve seen some complaints, this is more towards mischievous or prankster childhood friends, that the MC is forced to think positively of them, even if they don’t have a personality that the MC they’re playing as would be friends with or if they’re kind of an asshole to the MC but “tehe its a prank”.
With the more “sweet” childhood friends, I think the problem is more that all they are is sweet and they’re portrayed as sweet in the same way in every iteration of the childhood friend trope. If you’ve read one childhood friend romance, you’ve read them all.
Overall, I think theres also discontent in how everytime they’re the “childhood friend” (and not friend turned rival/nemesis or whatever), they’re not show to have grown; they’re always the exact same person that the MC knew as a child.
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Right, but I was more picturing a “self-explosive” option that ends up destroying something that isn’t the MC’s life (but something else important) which then wouldn’t end up in immediate game over (but could led to a bad ending).
You can definitely do that for stuff the MC STARTS WITH. Stuff that the MC acquires during the game gets iffier (unless then part of the story is getting it back), because those are things the players have (presumably) worked towards getting, and losing them due to something that FEELS arbitrary to the player leaves a bad taste in their mouths.
Example:
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The MC starts with superpowers. Then, when making a seemingly unrelated choice, those powers get taken. The story becomes about either getting those powers back or (more fitting to our case) adapting to the new, power-less life.
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The MC doesn’t start with superpowers, but can acquire them during the course of the story, presumably at the expense of something else (time on the player’s part, if nothing else). Then, when making a seemingly unrelated choice, those powers get taken.
These two, while both being “the MC losing their powers”, are two fundamentally different experiences, because in one you’re (apparently) arbitrarily taking away something the player worked and sacrificed for with no warning.
Contrast, additionally, with a variation of the second example, where the player can CHOOSE to sacrifice their powers to save someone or something, or do that saving knowing that they’re risking their powers. Now you’re still taking away something that the player worked for, but you’re making it their choice and giving them something in return.
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I was thinking something along the lines of the game signaling “please don’t go raiding the main villain’s lair without preparation, that is a very very bad idea”, which one might then presumably expect to lead to the MC dying, but would instead then lead to them losing the whatever mcguffin they needed to beat the said villain, or someone else dying. Or something. I’m just going off on wild tangents again.
That seems fair. You’re ALREADY telling people it’s a bad idea to do it, so if it costs them something if they try it anyway, you gave fair warning.
I think @jjc73 was referring to what is almost the opposite: you telling players it’s a bad idea to go raid the villain’s lair, giving the option to do it, them picking it, but when they’re about to [insert shenanigans] and they not being allowed to go through with it after all.
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Yes.
Another example is, I hate being this. (Yes its the plot.) Once you give a person the emotions of, I hate being this, let that option ride out to an abrupt ending.
BG3 allows these things. Example, dealing with L’azeal. You can surrender to her slicing you. Or Astorion and drinking all the blood.
There are other examples of deaths that happen. You hate being “this”, here is an out.
It allows the world to be more real than some, whats the word, contrived bs that doesnt really care about the reader and their input while going through choices.
Of course limits happen, the best stories are those that let a reader “live” or “die”.
However, yes, those are true thats been said.
Theoretical and I should of said this to one story creator before that had the element:
I hate myself so I tear myself, unless an NPC steps in at right time, I die. As I expect to happen, again, unless a person steps in of course. ITFO allows you to die near the end, it warns you, and allows you to go back to beginning of chapter. Unless you decide it is going to be canon, 12 chapters after, yeah thats deep in that work.
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All the yes! Romance is great, but it feels like these days all the emphasis is on that. I want me some more LotR style friendships, and more great mentor-student relationships…I love those so much but they’re pretty rare in my experience
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I have essentially the same views as @dreamofeden ,
but expanding on that: I think the biggest issue for me is that so many times we aren’t ever given a reason to care about the childhood friend beyond: “Well, you should care about them”. And sometimes that’s reason enough! But it doesn’t help that often, they’re drastically underdeveloped compared to every other character in the cast, who have complex motivations for being here and their own views on the world and the MC, meanwhile the childhood best friend’s only tie to what’s going on IS the MC, and sometimes the superficial relationships with the other characters. They don’t feel like a grounded part of the world, they feel like an accessory for the MC, which is really annoying because there’s nothing to endear us to them.
Not only that, but they often don’t expand on the MC’s past with them, or their relationship and how it developed pre-story outside of “We’ve always been best friends”. I have an IF concept in the works right now that has flashbacks every so often of past scenes with the two characters that actually showcase how and why they are so close (Ie; one comforting the other at the bar after something happened, one calling the other out of the blue to go to some fancy restaurant together because they have a free +1, etc.) and allows the reader to explore their dynamic!!
Of course, this isn’t the case for every childhood best friend, but it’s the source of most of my qualms with the greater trope. When done well, I love it!
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I accidentally sent before finishing and decided to just scrap it.
This one is for a sizable group of authors that have been dead and buried for more than two millennia, but tragedy for tragedy’s sake. I was re-reading a book that I’m rather fond of and recommend for the rest of my fellow Greek mythology enthusiasts, The Penguin Book of Classical Myths by Jennifer R. March, and I was puzzled by how very few of the “short” stories, across a variety of authors and sources, have what we understand as “good endings.” Most end in tragedy or death. While I still enjoy reading and re-reading them over and over again, I always tend to close the book and leave in a poorer mood than before I opened it, although I suppose that is the entire point of tragedies. Nevertheless, stories like Odissey, the Illiad, and the Enead have a proper, enjoyable arc, especially Odysseus’ journey. I still remember the pain he felt when he had to ignore Argos to not betray his disguise as a beggar.
Moving on to my actual point, my dislike today is a lack of proper balance when it comes to character development in storytelling, specifically a tragic backstory or a succession of tragic events that just keeps piling up with no respite to the point of becoming comical having you play as the unluckiest son of a gun in his particular universe. It seems to me that some authors and stories tend to overindulge when it comes to constantly piling on the misfortune of their characters, to the point that being conceived through a sexual assault and practicing cannibalism to obtain your powers is not the end of your suffering but merely the prologue of a masturbatory journey of masochism. And believe me, I love this particular story and universe, but at some points, even I flinch. I’m not saying that all stories have to be PG-13 or can not have elements of despair—I love a good post-apocalyptic dystopia as much as the next person—but there is a fine line between tastefully exploring dark themes and gratuitously indulging in them. At some point, it loses the shock value that makes it compelling and instead becomes overwhelming and exhausting.
For example, I can handle Joel’s fate all day, every day. It was emotional, powerful, and surprising for how sudden it was. It cast a long shadow over the entire story, and exploring those ghosts from the past added depth to the narrative. A tragic, brutal event that, although it would not be the last, served as kind of an anchor that took precedence over the other events. But if in the next chapter Tommy bit the dust and in the next chapter Dina, all in quick succession just for the sake of shock value, I would have dropped the entire thing instantly. Have your protagonists sweat to reach their goals; let them suffer and bleed for it, but pull the brakes now and then. Give us a laugh with their friends. Give us a fond memory. Give us a group of wild giraffes for us to see. Have a point where your character stops being reactionary and starts being proactive.
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When the story is heavy stat but the author does not show us the stat.
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It’s kinda like calling someone nice because you have no other way to describe them.
Meanwhile the Telegony 
Though I don’t mind them, sometimes a theme is a protag doing too much, like Odysseus is kinda evil. Not that I’m the type to enforce karma or anything. I feel like the main point of evil is getting out of consequences. Or basic happiness.
I just dislike cycle of revenge stories that force me to stop on my turn.
Like give me a choice or be fully anti revenge and let me nip it in the bud beforehand. Though I would describe the story as just everything progressively getting worse, for Elly at least. And they at least did a job of characterizing Abby which most revenge stories don’t do.
But in general I would like more games where the antagonist has legitimate grievances (not a misunderstanding or missing context since at that point if they don’t listen it’s unreasonable, and if they do the plot is gone) against the protag, I feel anti revenge stories would be more popular.
TLDR: project moon is peak
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