That comment was made in jest. I’ll go add the /j . I’m sorry the miscommunication.
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One problem I’ve kinda had with discussions relating to choicescript games is the idea of “red flag” ROs.
The term “red flag” is a bit weird for me to try to interpret. 90% of the time, people seem to use it to refer exclusively to stereotypical yandere and yandere-adjacent characters (Jun/ko, Mannerkol, etc). But the other 10% of the time is where it can vary wildly from anything from “doesn’t want a monogamous relationship” to “disagreed with the MC once” to “might date a NPC if the MC doesn’t get with them”.
“Red flag” also seems to only refer to ROs that are disliked or viewed as poorly written. In all the red flag discussions, I’ve not noticed anyone mention say, FH Ortega who, depending on the choices made, can be absolutely nuts (Retribution spoilers)fake dating the puppet to try to get information out of them, insane levels of codependency on Sidestep, projecting their idea of what Sidestep should be onto them, etc.
Idk, not sure where I’m going with this, just that to me, “red flag” has kind of lost all meaning, since it usually refers to either one specific type of red flag, or is so broad it might as well mean nothing.
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I find “red flag” and “toxic”, which seems related to it, weird character descriptors for a number of reasons. They feel both derogatory and really vague - like you say, it could mean anything. If an interactive relationship contains elements of a character trying to control the MC, for example, I’d rather just know that. There was a good post from Black Tabby Games about labelling routes as toxic; I can’t find it now but part of it boiled down to “game relationships are more complex than toxic vs wholesome”.
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Why must you toy with my ambitions in this way?
Too long
Depending on the suffering, I feel the same way. For example, I love ItFO. The MC is suffering from the very beginning and remains that way to one degree or another until the end. But your MC has a choice to pull themselves out of that suffering, and even during the suffering there are moments that ease that suffering (with Darin, with the LI, and even with lil’ sis, if the MC chooses to be close to her). That’s the kind of suffering I enjoy–a dark story with rays of hope mixed in.
What’s more, the suffering isn’t because the MC is an incompetent buffoon or turns into a doormat to LIs who shit on them, it’s because of the world they live in and their history in it. I live for that shit! All of the torment the MC suffers makes sense. Even the slow burn romance with Milon fits the atmosphere because the MC has never As long as I can get a happy ending, anyway. If it’s depressing and horrible, that game would go on my shit list. But I don’t see Bacon doing that for every branch.
Yep, and I’ve never understood that.
What @Zyrios said–plenty of younger siblings turn out to be way tougher than the older ones. And I say this as the younger of two siblings (my brother is eight years older than me). I started out kind of weak and easily picked on (a girl who was 5 years older than me, twice as big as me, and in my 3rd grade class tried to stuff me in a toilet one day and I wasn’t strong enough to stop her, but a friend came in and saved me–I also later got revenge, but we won’t go there), but I slowly grew into someone quite different by the time I hit high school, where no one really wanted to fuck with me because they knew I’d take them down.
Plus, you have to consider that older siblings will often want to toughen up their youngest sibling because they know what kind of crap they’ll have to deal with. My brother taught me one of the most valuable lessons ever: No one wants to fuck with someone crazier than they are. You just have to know how to fake crazy and be able to identify the really crazy ones before trying that tactic, lol. Both of my parents taught me the other most important lesson: don’t start fights, but if you end up in one, there are no rules in a fight. Just take your opponent(s) down however you can. Better that than having your head smashed in by the asshole(s).
So yeah, being the youngest doesn’t mean being weak. But again, as Zyrios said:
Exactly.
Yeah. The premise sounds interesting, as long as the MC isn’t forced to remain weak and unable to handle themselves. Or if they’re forced to let the ROs shit on them without being able to fight back.
Of course, there are people who never learn to stand up for themselves and have to have someone save them tragedy at every turn. I’ve known that type of person. But I sure as hell don’t want to RP them. I have too much fight in me to comprehend being repeatedly kicked and not getting to a point where you get up and kick back, only harder.
This was why I dropped The Gold Rose. Hadrian did nothing for me and with no one to romance, I couldn’t get through all the flowery, overly-detailed writing. Had there been a romance that interested me, I would have kept reading.
With Night Market, I was out after seeing how the only RO that would’ve interested me was going to go. I’ve got enough of a RO kicking the MC and treating her like a fucktoy in Wayhaven, and my MC’s LI in AMR freaking murdered her. I’m not going in for another one where my MC has to deal with both of those things from one damned LI. And then tells her he never loved her or couldn’t love her to boot.
Yes!! This is a big thing for me. FFS, even if you write an incompetent or weak MC, have them good at something. There’s no one I’ve ever met in this world who literally sucked at everything. Even the ones I mentioned above who never learn to stand up for themselves had talents–they just lacked the confidence to hold onto that fact.
And I think that should be a thing–if the MC is a weak person, they should still have talents. We’re all good at something. Maybe the MC doesn’t realize it, in which case there should be at least one character to tell them that. To help build them up and increase their confidence level. Even if the rest of the NPCs shit on them, then have one that doesn’t and can help them get to a point where they push back against those who disrespect them.
Yep. And if the ROs are going to jerk the MC around indefinitely, then at least give the MC the option to have offscreen dalliances to even the score a bit. Even if the romances are locked in, because being shit on and mindfucked does not a romance make.
For real. I want my MC to have a flamethrower, dammit.
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Gotta say, it’s as awful irl as you’d expect, hence my desire to not play that sort of character, so I too don’t want to RP as that. I’m also very fighty underneath all the trauma and emotional abuse and total lack of confidence and mental conditions/disabilities, which really makes me want to be the type of person I wish I was (and probably am deep down, if I can ever access it) so I want to do it in the one circumstance I can. Not allowing that feels absurd to me, but maybe people who are in a way better state than I with normal lives and self-confidence see my sort of shit as a silly novel experience to play around in. Would help explain it with how completely incomprehensible to me to like playing such characters.
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If you recognize that fighty part of yourself, it’s definitely in there. You just have to nourish it and realize that you don’t deserve to be treated poorly and have every right to stand up for yourself.
I’m not sure if they see it as silly novel experience or if they crave that kind of drama because they’ve had everything always work out for them. It’s the same way with these IFs where ROs like to play “kick the MC” and toy with their heart. Do the people who enjoy that stuff because they think having their heart ripped apart by an asshole who likes screwing with their mind is cool? If so, then they’ve clearly never experienced it, because it’s not cool or fun.
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That was more like what I was meaning with it, that I can’t imagine someone who’s actually experienced any of that to like it in fiction (beyond enjoying the relatability, as I’ve experienced with some things that aren’t pleasant but I did like). Not gonna say there’s no one like that, but I would be very surprised if it’s at all a notable amount.
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My personal kink is taking the wind out of the sails of those kinds of ROs by just no-selling all their bullshit and giving back a solid, heaping dose of vibe check, but you hardly ever see stories that cater to that fantasy. 
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What I don’t get is why you never really have the option of putting them in their place. It’s a romance story? Fine, let it be a romance story, but if your LI is treating you like shit, then give the option to point it out. Have a point where the MC can tell them to go fuck themselves and leave it on the LI to fix.
But that doesn’t happen. The LI doesn’t have to suffer consequences for their behavior because the romance is locked in, thereby giving the author free reign to write the MC as a complete and utter doormat who suffers abuse with a sniffle or a smile (your pick). All in the name of “angst”. I guess it pains some people to write things in a way where their characters actually have to apologize or work to get the MC’s trust and affection back after completely shattering both. Instead, the MC has to go beg on bended knee to the RO who took a giant whizz right in their face.
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Or worse (for me anyhow) is when you do have the option to bite back, but everybody acts appalled at you for it, and then the narrative has the gall to guilt trip you along the lines of, “But they’re hot, tho 
”
My dude, they could be Aphrodite or Adonis in the flesh, I couldn’t care less. To paraphrase something I said a cool 3,400-something posts ago, being hot doesn’t exempt you from my shit list if you suck as a person.
And you can tell that to all your moron groupies over there, acting like I’m the bad guy.
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Then you get the, “Oh! But they’ve been through so much!!” No one cares that your character regularly suffers trauma, emotional abuse, and being chased by psychos. Your character can just suck balls, because the LI’s suffering is far worse. Therefore, you should lick their boots when they proverbially kick you in the teeth.
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Or a third way out of this problem (clever authors xdd) I saw this too in IFs from Tumblr community.
Author will give an option to respond to the attack of mean RO, but the way MC reacts is just… pathetic. Only makes MC a fool of themselves and mean RO has even more mocking and laughing at them. It’s as if authors took pleasure in humiliating MC - and the reader. Their precious RO must always have the last word.
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Tangentially related to the discussion above, but I dropped The Fog Knows Your Name because there is a scene early on where you are forced into a confrontation with two characters in a very aggressive way. And all your options for dealing with it suck. You can’t calmly explain your position, you can’t tell them they’re pulling some bullshit and refuse to play along, you have to play their stupid game and lose.
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Pride and Prejudice? That’s what I’ve heard anyway.
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I know there’s one RO in When Life Gives You Lemons who spends the majority of the romance trying to get back in your pants after they screwed up and got dumped on their ass, so I have one solid example, at least.
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Well, you know what they say, when life gives you lemons, make life take the lemons back.
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Get MAD.
I DON’T WANT YOUR DAMN LEMONS, WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THESE?!
DEMAND TO SEE LIFE’S MANAGER!
(/Cave Johnson)
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This talk about “doormat” MC’s reminds me of my experience playing the Imperial Agent class in Star Wars: The Old Republic… Funnily enough it’s a good example of both well-done and poorly-done player agency.
Spoiler alert for whoever cares about a ten year old MMO
The Imperial Agent class had a story where, come Chapter 2, the Agent finds they’ve been brainwashed by both sides of the conflict. Basically they were too good at their job so the Sith got scared and had Imperial Intelligence subject them to a brainwashing program that Republic spies immediately found out about and stole the code phrase too.
In other words the Agent was stuck between two sides that were using them until they manage to break the brainwashing.
The good example of player agency comes from how you’re allowed to deal with the Republic spies who’re using you. You can kill them all, or just some of them (not all of them knew about the brainwashing), or you can spare them all and even forgive the guy who brainwashed you outright. If you do that he’ll be genuinely taken-aback and (should you continue to make Light Side decisions) will return as an ally and even offer you the chance to become a double-agent for the Republic.
In other words you have the full range of options you’d expect from a situation like that. Thus making it a satisfying experience.
The bad example of player agency comes from how you’re forced to keep dealing with Imperial Intelligence despite learning they brainwashed you. The best you can do is point out that you’re kind unhappy with that, but they’ll just shrug it off and so will the Agent seconds after. In fact, not only do you continue to work with them, but the game expects you to care when Intelligence is disbanded by the Sith, like they hadn’t turned into a living puppet a few weeks ago. The game’s not even clear on who (in Intelligence) knew about the brainwashing or what they thought about it.
The best you can do is accept the aforementioned Republic’s spy’s offer to become a double agent and sort of indirectly get back at them in your own headcanon, making for an anti-climactic experience that doesn’t really make sense given the Agent is shown to be a master of subterfuge who could easily just assassinate the Imperial spymaster, and it wouldn’t have even changed the story because he exits it (still alive) at the end anyways.
All that to say, I’m all for the author imposing whatever restrictions they need for the story to work. If that means a set personality, background, having positive relationships with the cast, I’m all for it. The only caveat being that I want the ability to interact with their story itself a way that makes sense for the MC involved with it.
So if you write someone backstabbing the MC I’ll expect to be able to either forgive or get back at them because that’s what’s been presented in the narrative; a story of betrayal.
If on the other hand I just happen to not like a character’s personality I don’t expect the option to be able to insult them at every turn and push them off a bridge for no reason.
It’s a balancing act for sure but all I personally care about is to have agency in the story itself. Which does sometimes mean I want the option for the MC to not be confident or competent but that’s another topic.
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Honestly, having played Imperial Agent, I wasn’t super bothered. I just wrote it off as “typical Sith bullshit” and moved on.
Infinitely more annoying to me was playing Jedi Knight and having the council repeatedly shoot down any dissenting opinion I ever had, whether it be the genuinely valid concern about my padawan being a sleeper agent for, you know, just THE EMPEROR, HIMSELF, my criticisms of how Grandmaster Shan handled things, just kinda across the board, or even just my disinterest in getting promotions foisted on me that I didn’t want and wasn’t working to achieve in the first place.
His name was Seto Andu, and he was the least heroic Jedi I’ve ever made.
My headcanon is that my Jedi Knight was a successfully escaped Imperial slave who was trying to lie low in Republic territory, but got picked up by the Order against his choosing because he accidentally Force’d himself out of what should have been his own death (hell, he didn’t even know he had Force powers prior to then) when a chemical explosion happened at a factory and irreparably damaged his eyesight. On the one hand, he loves getting back at the Sith, and the Jedi did give him a sweet new visor to enhance his weakened eyesight so that he’d be combat-ready; but on the other hand, he never wanted to get revenge in the capacity of a Jedi, since - given that he had to break out of slavery and escape to Republic space on his own - he feels like they’re useless, so he’s been salty about it ever since.
Frankly, he has no good reason to even still be a Jedi, much less the Battlemaster of the Order, since he doesn’t even blink when it comes to killing Sith or anybody affiliated with them, and takes an almost perverse glee in making it hurt like hell before the end (to the point where even members of the Sith Order, themselves, are all, “Jesus man, will you give it a rest? And you think we’re the bad guys!”), which is kinda why he objects to Grandmaster Shan’s decision-making, because even he’s like, “Why have I not been cast out yet? Are y’all blind on the council, or something???”
Hating his old master and all (sans getting dunked in lava though)!