Huh! Are you using speech-to-text?

I really like the surprise of finding out a character is an RO that I hadn’t expected. I think it’s really neat when the author does that.

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But the other way round is not as funny. When youethink someone can be romanced but then it is revealed that that is not a possibility. That is a fact I would have liked to know before. :grinning:

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Oh, another thing I found recently: When an author does the dread ‘all characters sound the exact same’. Like, i’m sorry, but if you ‘clever, spunky teenager’ and your ‘grumpy aging war veteran’ both sound like they are reading dry scientific or legal texts, something is amiss.

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I can see where you’re coming from with this, at least in the book I’m working on now, possibly the other one that I am not quite sure yet, I’m going to have your RO’s, and then side characters, but depending on how you interact with them you can basically do everything you can do with an RO, except for the actual romance portion, though for each character there’s a specific reason, like one is already married, one is kind of in a relationship sort of it’s a bit complicated, one’s basically still a kid, and they haven’t figured out all the variables for the final one yet. These four, Are outside your core team, who are the RO‘s. And then I’ll be the standard, best friend who you didn’t decide to Romance in the team. Though it’s going to be made very clear, at least if you try to flirt with the, ““ side characters, that romancing them traditionally isn’t really on the table.
Like, in the dialogue itself.

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I’ve actually been caught by this gripe recently. I was at the tail end of the new Vampire: The Masquerade COG, and my character was full-bore out to kill all the vampires, but I made a decision to save one of my friends in a moment of crisis (primarily because it was the only skill check I felt comfortable attempting), and because of that, my character wound up just letting the rest of the vampires go after the big bad evil one was killed. Kinda pissed me off, not gonna lie.

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My other current topic (ROs you hate) has a bit of a bad habit of us slipping off-topic to discuss mechanics in various games that annoy us, and we keep having to slap ourselves on the wrist and pull ourselves back in line, so I figure it’s a good idea to make this thread for the very clear chest-clearing that desperately needs to happen.

(“But Zyri, doesn’t this fall under tropes that people don’t like?” To be honest with you, I don’t know, so if this topic winds up being assimilated into the biomass, welp, shit happens.)

Since I have a wealth of options from that thread to choose from, my example to start will be “lack of character agency in romance games.”

Here’s the general gist of it:

In a lot of the romance-focused games on this site, your protagonist tends to be one of two personality types:

  1. Confident, headstrong and authoritative, but still gets argued down and dragged into every little scheme and scenario by the infinitely more aggressive ROs who can’t take no for an answer. (It feels weird to mention When Twilight Strikes as my example here, given that it’s no longer a CoG story, but it is my most prominent example - you can play your protagonist as an extreme hardass, but will STILL get forced or “volunteered” into every little situation regardless of how hard you try and set your feet and say no.)

  2. Meek little doormat who bends their will to the demands of anyone and anything without argument, and basically just gets to stand there and take it, if or when the infinitely more aggressive ROs start treating them like crap. (Your protagonist from The Price of Emeralds WIP has been rightly accused by readers of being utterly spineless, as they just let their cheating ex have the apartment, let the four ROs drag them against their will into a life of crime, let their boss walk all over them without warrant, let their scumbag coworker treat them like crap at every twist and turn… it’s pretty ridiculous, really.)

There’s also a third option:

  1. It doesn’t matter who your protagonist is, because the story, itself, will just force you to comply with things without even so much as a by-your-leave for the reader’s benefit. (Love at Elevation forces you into a romance regardless of whether you were going to pick a romance to have or not, and breaking that romance off is like pulling teeth, and then the game beats you over the head about it if you do break it off.)

Character personalities aside, the plots of romance games also tend to be very rigid - you might be able to influence some things, but it’s a 100% guarantee that you’re still going to be inextricably placed upon the intended plot path, no matter what you do. In most CoGs, while yes, you do eventually have to progress the plot, the decisions you make can wildly change how the road ahead of you looks at any given time, such that there are entire different tales to be told within the same one story - I didn’t know that it was possible to get yourself killed in Witchcraft U, and that several people were having legitimate trouble with it, because everything I chose just let me blindly sidestep death without even realizing that I was ever in danger. Romance games don’t like the idea of your character, or any of the ROs dying, and so any potential threat of the sort is nerfed into the ground by some contrivance or another. (Example: The final fight with Murphy in Wayhaven 1 has your character kidnapped and held hostage by the man. There’s two crucial choices that can influence whether Murphy gets captured or gets away, and they both do considerable damage to your character… but no matter which way you go, you’ll pull through just fine in the end and be healed up and ready to go by book two.)

Well, maybe I would rather not have to work with Unit Bravo, and let them carry the bulk of the investigation while I do my own quiet work on the side? Not an option, you’re working with Unit Bravo, period.

Well, maybe I want to give myself an early game over and not join the agency? Not an option, you’re joining the agency, period.

Well, maybe I’d rather do the night patrol alone, or with one of my fellow officers from the PD? Not an option, you’re patrolling with Unit Bravo, period.

Okay, well, I guess I’ll play Wayhaven some other time, and you know, I think I’ll play some cheesy Japanese romance game instead. You know, I think I’ll just not get into a romance with any of the- mā sore wa omae nitotte warui sentakushi ja nai.

That means “Well, too bad, that’s not an option for you,” if you were wondering. My Japanese fluency is nonexistent, so I imagine I’ve gotten it horribly wrong, please forgive.

The general consensus about having so little freedom to act in these games is that people really, really don’t appreciate it. The most common remark I’ve seen made (and which I made myself) is along the lines of, “if I wanted to not have a choice in things, I’d go read a regular book.” In my case, what I said was, “If I wanted to watch an episode of CSI, I’d just go watch CSI,” but the point is still there.

Keep in mind, none of us are saying these are bad stories for doing this, and we’re certainly not trying to argue that we should be allowed to turn the plot on its head at any time we want - we’re just annoyed at romance games being so rigid all the time and protagonist characters having so little say in their own lives, that’s all.

Alright, I know a lot of people have some steam to blow off about this, so have at it - but please, no Wild West-style barfights, those are so expensive to clean up.

EDIT: Well would you look at that! It DID get assimilated into the biomass! Just not the one I thought it would be. Oh lord, and I was the most recent poster in this topic before today, Jesus Christ, Zyri.

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I’ve moved the previous post to this thread, since there’s a lot of good discussion above that I think is still quite relevant.

Remember that the point of this thread is not to have a hate fest–if you can think about why you dislike something, it will help people understand game mechanics more deeply.

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I’m not sure if it’s my “most hated”, but I don’t like when the game forces me to pick between spending time getting to know a character or increasing skill ratings. It’s pretty much my ONE complaint about AMR.

I’m not going to overly complain about this one, because I think quite a few CoG games fail in that they give you a lot of text in a row without a choice to break it up. Even if it’s something super minor like only a few text lines of difference, I much prefer that than going over two screens of text without a choice. Yes, yes, your exposition is very nice, but I bet you could’ve split it up and integrated the bits into separate parts of the narrative. And you got personality sliders RIGHT THERE, even if you want to exposition for 5 screens, ask me how I feel about some stuff in-between those screens and let that move those.

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Two things that are very similar but not exactly the same, but I don’t like either of them:

  1. There are choices… but they all do exactly the same thing. I don’t like illusion of choice, and I think that’s even worse than just not having a choice.

  2. The choices are stat tests, but don’t read like stat tests. At all. I’m picking the choice that reads most like it could solve the problem, or most reflects what my character would do, but actually – they are all solutions, if your stat is high enough. Including the ones that read like they would make the problem a lot worse, and/or don’t reflect your character’s personality at all. I get that these are supposed to be “you can choose to fail,” but unless the reader knows that, they’re not choosing to fail.

@JBento If they move stat sliders, they don’t do exactly the same thing (provided they move them in different ways) so that’s perfectly fine with me.

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It is 2pm. What would you like to do next?

  • do shnerp
  • call blerb
  • call it a day
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I dunno, is shnerp cute?

Damn you, Shnerp!

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The only time I hate this is when it tells you “you have x hours to do as many of these things as you want/can, but we don’t actually display the time tracker or how long these things take even though it’s a hidden tracked stat”

@JBento Yes, shnerp is very cute. He’s in his 50s, tall, broad-shouldered, bald, potbellied, and hairy.

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Shnerp is wanted in connection with several war crimes.

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I dunno, is he?

Shnerp (m)

hair: black
eyes: grey-blue
1,83m, playersexual
Shnerp seems a bit aloof at first, but if you get to know him better, you will see he’s just a jerk.

@geldar I don’t like it in general, it’s to gamey for me, but with the hidden time tracker it’s even worse.

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I tend to not mind being pulled along with the plot, so long as I can have different conversations/dialogues with the characters I care about each playthrough. As long as the story is at least entertaining, that is, which i realize is subjective. I can definitely see where people would have frustrations with it though.

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I recognize that eventually, the plot must go on, so I don’t have a problem with going with the flow. For me, if nothing I say or do has any real impact on how the plot continues on, then I get annoyed.

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What I don’t like are character-defining choices that do nothing to define the character. I understand that not every choice can be deeply meaningful, and I understand using empty choices to break up what would otherwise be too long a chunk of text or allow the player to “fill out” the character in their mind in ways that won’t actually matter to the story. What I don’t like is being asked to define my character’s personality and values, then being able to act against them without any acknowledgement in the text that I’m doing something out of character.

One of the most prominent examples of what I mean can be found in Jazz Age, which otherwise I thought did a better job than average at making my character’s established personality characteristics felt in the text. At one point, a character asks the PC how they feel about premarital sex, and one of the options is a flat declaration that sex without benefit of marriage is immoral. At the end of that chapter, there’s an optional interlude involving a very explicit sex scene with one or both of the ROs. When I had a character profess a belief that sex without marriage was wrong, I assumed that either that interlude wouldn’t be available (i.e., that this was the author’s way of incorporating an explicit-content opt-out for readers preferring a sweet romance), or that at least the text would acknowledge that the character’s desires and principles were in conflict. (I would have been fine either way.) As it happened, the sex scene was indeed available, without any accompanying reflection. And it just leaves me feeling, what was the point of being required to define my character’s sexual morality then?

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Oh man. I’m so used to the straight jacket that most otome games put on the MC’s personality, choices, and agency that the CoG romance games feel like worlds of fresh air in comparison. But they are still plenty restrictive in some ways, I agree.

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I never finished that game, but my impression of it was that it was specifically designed to challenge your character’s desires and motivations and make you feel conflicted. But maybe it just didn’t recognize or care about your choices at all, so it wouldn’t know if you felt conflicted or not.

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For the most part, it does that, or is at least clearly trying to do that. The author does an excellent job at setting the PC up with various possible goals to pursue, some of them in direct conflict with other goals, all of them forcing the PC to evaluate their priorities. I could probably write a short essay on how Jazz Age both succeeds and fails in what it sets out to do. But the premarital sex question has literally no impact in the game beyond the first paragraph of dialogue on the next page. The character the PC is speaking to doesn’t even react differently based on the PC’s answer, and there are no variables or stats involved. It’s just a question that feels as if it should matter. What the character believes is the right way for a sexual relationship to progress seems as if it should be something that would matter in a romance game, but it doesn’t. The characters could have been discussing Calvin Coolidge’s foreign policy for all the difference it actually made to the story or to the character’s narrative arc.

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