Consolidated Gender Lock Discussion Thread

[Rogar]

@LordOfLA

Personally I don’t buy games that are gender locked to male where I know in advance that they are. It is my opinion that gender locking games these days is sign of lazy writing.

Honestly I don’t know it all depends on the right and what they’re trying to do. Also considering non-game writers have to pick a gender for their character. Their two series on here that do gender lock well. But the reason is it’s because the gender itself is tied to a narrative to the background to the lore.

@Eric_Moser

On the other hand, I sometimes feel that allowing a MC to be any gender or orientation can make the MC rather bland. Many writers, including myself, can’t spend the time coding unique reactions, motivations or dialogue based on the reader’s chosen gender and orientation so those choices are reduced to window dressing, although perhaps window dressing that allows the reader to feel more immersed in the story.

That’s my frustration when it comes to you when I see these projects the gender and the pronouns and all the superficial things about the character how they dress our color excetera it is all window dressing. And let’s say you have a game an historical era ethnic background and social class is going to be huge. Great example would be making game in the early middle ottoman Court or during the period of Sultanate of Women. Both your gender and your racial background is going to say a lot for where you in the hierarchy and what type of hard and soft power you would have in the court.

Another really fun example of a gender lock single game is retelling of Oedipus by @Jacic

[Rogar]

You did trenches I positively love that game my only wish was I would have loved to see more background of the protagonist I know he was supposed to be like every other Tommy. And this may be silly but I would love to see a kind of playable postgame epilogue of what you do after the war. But yeah I love your brother.

@Havenstone

By contrast, I didn’t find the MC of Sabres much of a presence, despite being genderlocked. Elson and (above all) Cazarosta are the characters who stand out; your MC has lots of interesting choices, but not a personality as such. Don’t get me wrong, I love Sabres… but if one advantage of genderlocking is that it makes it easier to write a non-bland MC, the only example I’ve read to date is Guenevere.

That was my issue with Sabor as well. What Paul did well is each succession game establishes and makes that initially very Bland nobleman we play as more and more of my vibrant character. On the first game they’re just some bland nobleman and officer the sequel either they are a disgraced man doing everything they can to redeem themselves in the eyes of society and their King with all the center dialog and self-reflection that’s shown in game or this genuine war hero of some real Renown dealing with tough choices of the conflict. When you walk into the shoes of your previous character he feels like somebody when start guns . And the third one coming that in beta Lords you feel like somebody you’re coming home to your family to your country you haven’t seen in over a decade and that perspective is colored the character feels like they’re burning grain part of the world especially play the previous two games know where they exist in and and they’re trying to figure out how to adjust back to civilian in with all this drama going back up. Not even going into the game really is good at putting the weight of your status on your shoulder you may be a member of the minor Gentry see the rest of your title p Peers your a small fry your choice still affects everyone that lives directly under on your estate to the own well-being of your very family.

[idonotlikeusernames]

@Johann

being the Infinity series with an ongoing feminist side-plot.

XoR has ample politics too. And the situation for slave and lower-class gay and/or trans people in its universe is far from “cozy”.
I sure would like me some more politics games actually. We most often see them pop-up the form of “ruler” games, but sadly that is one category where almost nobody seems to reach the finish line.

@Johann

Drag is for everyone. Drag Star allows you to be a straight man like every other CoG.

On the male side more straight than gay men are, in fact, drag queens, at least in Amsterdam at the events.

@HarrisPS

Being a minor male consort to a crown princess and father to her child, but now she’s getting married to a prince and you need to figure out how you fit in (that’s based on a story I

While you’re not the consort @Darkner recently had an interesting concept for one of those politics/ruler games set in matriarchal Atlantis with a more realistic matriarchal society than the usual fantasy BDSM amazons.

@Rogar

If I was going to write that in there there would be a mechanic trying not to get caught.

Yep, in virtually all of our wars there were women who fought while crossdressing/pretending to be guys.

[Rogar]

@distracteddad

And for the Civil War you could have a woman fighting at, say, Gettysburg or one of the battles in Virginia and encountering some of the ghost and supernatural stuff that’s supposed to be there. Maybe she meets the ghost of the runaway slave or murdered field hand or something.

I took courses on the Civil War war in that era. There was women that have fought but the numbers so well it’s minuscule. If I was going to write that in there there would be a mechanic trying not to get caught. If I was going to make a game about Civil War I would show yet different genders but the woman wouldn’t be fighting it could be so many different things you could be doing that’s not soldiering that’s still interested. The the Spy networks run by women both working within their respective sides capitals trying to sabotage the other. Or the struggle of woman be if she’s from a southern belle Gentry stock first family type to a woman on the homestead in the midwest their husbands are gone their brothers are gone they have to manage everything and deal with all that struggle. They were the de facto head of the household both financially and materially it’s only be going into how the most famous women in the war were also ones that found at hospitals that are getting commissions by the respective governments as medical officers doing great things and witnessing all that horror.

[Rogar]

@idonotlikeusernames

his budding series before his virtual disappearance.

I still back his patreon and he’s been silent for almost a year I’m a little worried.

[Mary_Duffy]

@derekmetaltron

I know that with HC impending and as a straight white male I can look at it and feel disappointment that it’s generally not for me because of some perceived reason that all I and other male readers want is porn and badly written female characters and so M/F content must never ever be allowed there

I feel as though this has been addressed elsewhere on the forum but I apparently need to say it again.

Romance novel readers are largely women. Heart’s Choice aspires to engage that audience, and bring female, romance novel readers to the world of IF and our games. Women who enjoy visual novels will also be part of the audience we hope to attract.

That said, our romance line is designed to include a broad spectrum of sexualities. We have gender variable games (play as any gender, romance any gender), we have games for women and femme n-b lesbian, and we have games for gay men.

We do not YET have a game under contract written exclusively for straight men. We have not received such a pitch for a romance game. We don’t assign pitches, and we don’t tell writers what to write.

That does not mean we won’t publish such a game, and your imputations about what our perceptions are are wholly incorrect and in your imagination, not the function of anything we have said about or hold to be true about Heart’s Choice.

The more you complain about how much Heart’s Choice wasn’t designed for straight men, the less patient I become. We have said as much about it, and we still are not purposely excluding content for straight men. We’re frontloading the line with games for a variety of sexualities and PC genders. And two of the first five games will allow you to play as a man, romancing women.

[Cari-san]

I think that depends on the tone how I write my criticism. If I go in there saying “yo, this game is crap bc there is no option to play as male.” then that’s not acceptable. If I say “this game isn’t for me bc there is no option to play as male” that’s a different matter I think.

Anyway since Donor was mentioned: I know I won’t play that game either despite the female genderlock bc it has other elements which aren’t my cup of tea. But I guess that doesn’t mean it’s badly written, so I’ll just leave it at that and let the fans enjoy it.

[Mary_Duffy]

I’m going to throw out a wild idea: stating that a game isn’t for you because it’s genderlocked isn’t actually criticism. And that’s true whether you say “it’s crap” or just “it’s not for me.” It’s a statement of fact now freighted* with the “critic’s” judgment, and it’s negative in either case. But it is not a reflection of any artistic merit.

As a woman, I don’t post negative reviews of clothing stores I frequent when they send me emails about their men’s line. I don’t refuse to read books about male protagonists. I don’t think it’s relevant. I do think Choice of Games is committed to offering male/female (and now also nonbinary) gender options, and Hosted Games and Heart’s Choice do not demand that authors write those options. And I don’t think any comment on this rises to the level of literary–or really any kind of–criticism.

Now, you can argue with me, Mary Duffy, and that’s fine. I’m not saying this or chiming in in order to shut down a lengthy and contentious thread as a staff member at COG. I’m just offering my opinion that I don’t feel attacked by the existence of menswear, and I don’t think demanding a game be genderlocked or not is really much different.

*What do I mean by freighted with judgment? A couple things, but primarily, that the company or the author have somehow wasted our energies on a product that you, a single consumer do not want–and that is bad, and a bad use of time.

[Bryce_Kaldwin]

Essentially, my take has always been this. I read books, play games, or get invested in universes on the strength of the characters involved. I prefer games where characters have the same nuances as human beings as we do IRL. Individuals are complex, complicated, and sometimes infuriatingly contradictory. If the story is centered around a female or male, binary, transgender, gender-fluid, and so on so forth is irrelevant to me as long as the character is compelling.

However, this company when it publishes CoG titles states this: inclusivity. That means that you make the character that you find compelling. It’s that simple, to be published as a CoG author. You must make it so that everyone is represented in a positive way. You can also showcase the flawed perception of mainstream society and how discriminatory it is and can be. You can highlight the micro-aggressions and bullshit that people use to hide their misinformed, bigoted, or intolerant views.

HG content is different: HG is designed to tell stories as the author sees fit. Which ultimately means that the burden of respecting human beings rests on them and the people who test the game to convey in a respectful way.

In my opinion, if a game and story is done well. You should be able to form a connection to the universe around it. If you can’t fully connect with the character. The burden of creating a universe like this is difficult and unfortunately, people aren’t perfect. They’ll make errors, misrepresent people, and thus people might get offended. But, that’s not the end of the story. The great thing about these forums is that you can tell the author (if they are on them) how you feel and offer advice. Hopefully they’ll listen and do better next time.

This is ultimately how I feel about the issue, thanks for reading.

[DarkCondor]

Calm down, people. Many of you may find it difficult to understand my friend’s points, but as a latino myself I can affirm that the worldview we have may be somewhat different from yours. Not totally different, but perhaps more restrictive. Now, do we complain about that? Of course not, it’s our freedom. That’s why the idea of drag is not accepted among us. But, as he said, it’s not our place to throw bad criticism at stories related to it because we’re not the intended audience. Clearer than water, impossible.

[Cari-san]

You have a point there. I guess I should have added that when “I say a game isn’t for me bc [whatever reason]” then it’s more like an opinion than constructive criticizm. But if I say “I didn’t enjoy the game bc …, but I think it could be made better if …”. The author isn’t inclined to rewrite the game according to my suggestion of course, but they can think of what I said if they wish so.
And I think while constructive criticism is better of course, opinions can be shared too as long we are still respectful about voicing them.

[GoldenSilver]

Well, I’m a latino too so that does not invalidate my questions to @BGL; I don’t see how that’s relevant either. Even though all 3 of us are latinos we can have different mindsets and world views…just like people from same and different genders.

[derekmetaltron]

As you say romance is traditionally seen as a female audience, and my supposed criticism has never been about any denial of that point. No one is going to deny that audience who enjoys stuff on Episodes or Stories isn’t worth pursuing. Or having a variety of game types, which is awesome.

So I do apologise if I have come overly aggressive or irritated about Hearts Choice. It is only out of concern following some mods implying it was unlikely (not yourself) that’s made me wish to ensure such possible games would not be denied or not included. As you say if and when it happens it will happen. I am definitely interested in playing Jazz Age and Dawnfall and happy for others with other games. I promise I will aim not to come across as too inpatient or aggressive about it in future, though I can’t promise I won’t try and champion romance games for straight male audiences in the future for HC and ensure the inclusive nature you do honestly do well at striving for. And that’s that.

[Mary_Duffy]

Thank you. That’s fine. To clarify, though. It’s not about aggression or irritation, it’s about what I quoted. You said the reason HC is not including straight male genderlocked games (which in itself is not strictly true, we would publish such a game) was:

@derekmetaltron

because of some perceived reason that all I and other male readers want is porn and badly written female characters and so M/F content must never ever be allowed there

1. We don’t think that.
2. That content is allowed on HC.

You are welcome to complain about anything you want here, but you can’t

• pretend you haven’t been told why there are currently no games exclusively written for straight men on HC,
• impute reasons the company doesn’t hold.

Other than that, fire away.

[derekmetaltron]

Ah, well I can see how that might come across. The porn thing was more to do with what Mara seems to think than the mods though.

But otherwise cool! I promise to try and not make you mods jobs harder. The key word being try.

[Eiwynn]

This is a gentle reminder to please keep conversations directed at the topic at hand and not at the individuals themselves.

@GoldenSilver - Your questions to BGL should be taken to PM/DM at this time

Focusing replies on the individuals themselves instead of the topic at hand can lead to friction between members and often causes the thread to derail.

Please avoid repetitively hammering a single view without adding anything new.

@DarkCondor - this next part is especially important for you to take note of:

Finally, if you see disrespectful posts please do not reply to them. Rather, please use the report feature and let forum staff deescalate friction.

@rose-court has issued a general warning once. After this, individual action will be taken up to and including suspensions and revoking of forum privileges.

Don’t unleash the mods on this thread.

Thanks.

[distracteddad]

Thanks that’s great stuff. I’ve actually been kicking around a sequel for quite awhile but don’t presently have the time to do it, but something will definitely be coming one of these days.

[Happyteddypig]

I mean personal I dont really care about the gender-lock thing, i more interested with the society altering powers that anyone might have. it is hella spooks.

[Pace675]

@jasonstevanhill

The idea that their gender is up to them to decide–without an explicit choice around it–is really hard for a lot of people to grasp.

Was my biggest gripe with Congresswolf,way it read to me as if the MC was a generic unmarked humanoid cutout, not a defined character which put me off to the book. Though the premise was interesting enough.

[TSSL]

As far as writing other genders, I really have found the worst examples to be men trying too hard to write a female mindset. That’s what turns into a parody of women, as they try too hard to insert “what women are like.” Just writing characters as people with personalities and interests is what it takes to characterize someone of any gender.

So my main objections to gender locks are when they’re based on that kind of justification or the idea that someone of a certain gender wouldn’t be in a certain role at all. There are other reasons to lock, like focused dating sims (see below), writing about a marginalized experience, writing about a highly specific character, etc., but that’s rather different.

Of course, I think authors perfectly well have a right to write that however they wish. I also have a right to say I don’t think it’s a good idea.

@idonotlikeusernames

You forgot:

4: Don’t like genderlock at all, but would like to see some gay m/m exclusive (dating/romance) games.
Even if that last category may just consist of little, old me even around these parts.

Not just you, no And a gay dating game is a fairly different kettle of fish than a self-insert adventure. Also something I have some plans to try my hand at myself.

@Happyteddypig

Historically there have been few women rules during times of crisis or great women rules know throughout history.

I mean, that’s not really true? They’ve often faced different challenges, but history’s chock full of women rulers, especially if you include co-rulers or “effectively ran the country while someone else was legally in power.” They’re a mixed bag, of course, but so are men.

Like… Wu Zetian, Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth, Raziya Sultana, Theodora (co-ruler), Zenobia, Marie diMedici effectively ruling for her son, then Madame de Pompadour effectively ruling France as the king’s mistress, the “Sultanate of Women” as a period when women were the effective political leaders of the Ottoman Empire, Cixi (regent), Cleopatra, Olympias, Hatshepsut, Shulü Ping (regent), Nzinga… all across the world and across time, there’s no shortage of them. These are all, specifically, major figures with big impacts on history.

@Happyteddypig

Gor reference there are plenty of Empresses from China and some even instituted important changes to China, history has never recorded them in a positive light. Wu Zetain the Empresses dowerger had to dress like a man and such.

That’s not true This has happened in other cultures, like Egypt. I’m not sure which Empress Dowager you mean, but I guess Cixi is the most famous. She very definitely dressed as a woman. Her historical legacy is a bit mixed, but this is more to do with traditionalism during a time of change.

@Cari-san

most authors are straight males

Maybe the majority of them are, idk.

I would be very surprised if this is the case, given that less than half of people are straight males, and I don’t think that straight males are more likely to write than anyone else. More likely to get published, maybe, though I think that depends on the genre.

@HarrisPS

There are lots of ways to make gender “matter”, whatever that means to you, and they don’t have to involve real world marginalisations. I’d love to see it being explored in a wide variety of ways!

Yes, I would really like to see more stories with societies that are set up differently from either modern Western or “modern Western idea of Medieval Europe” Cultures are diverse, and there are many possibilities to explore.

@idonotlikeusernames

While you’re not the consort @Darkner recently had an interesting concept for one of those politics/ruler games set in matriarchal Atlantis with a more realistic matriarchal society than the usual fantasy BDSM amazons.

Like that, yeah! It’d be a nice counterpoint to all those “let’s make it harder for women” games