I don’t think I’ve ever said that steam engines exist yet? Seven years ago on the WIP thread I implied that haemopunk was probably a better label for the world’s tech. Lots of early industrial machines exist, but they’re driven by Theurgy. Using Theurgy to burn something rich in elemental fire to move driveshafts by steampower would introduce a second fuel into the system, beyond just blood; it would be needlessly inefficient.
Having said that, when the blood starts running low, steam engines of some kind are I think on the “likely” end of tech innovations, along with a waterpower revolution that turns lowland Wiendrj (with its good canal connections) into the workshop of the continent.
Breden’s old masters tended to skim over that part.
Six or seven major ones. They don’t map directly onto real-world Greek poleis, no.
Afraid not. You can’t Theurgically enhance a weapon without aetherial blood refining tech that the old Shayardenes didn’t have.
MC’s koinon “Marshal Planning” Karagon towards the path of recovery is certainly a beautiful outcome to work towards in the distant future.
But for the more immediate Game 5 future, MC might ask Phaedra to first pay reparation fees from Karagon’s (remaining) treasury for the following reasons:
1- Despite MC being fond of Phaedra (on a personal level), Karagon (as a state) still needs to take accountability for its history-wide sin of Harrowing tons of innocent helots,
2- Paying the reparation fees is a dramatic “atonement” gesture which will be an important first step for rehabilitating Karagon’s image (from ex-tyrant to newest cooperative team player of the koinon),
3- And on a more urgent practical/political level, MC needs to bribe his non-Karagond supporter base to (at least) tolerate his alliance with Phaedra (thus hopefully avoiding impeachment from the Apella)
Hopefully, however, I don’t go overboard with the reparation fees and end up “Treaty of Versaille”-ing Karagon into becoming a “Nazi-fied future version of itself”.
Koine will be certainly be kept around as the most commonly used language of the koinon (for obvious practical purposes), but in one particularly imagined gameworld, my Nationalist Lite Aristo MC does have a vested interest in promoting Shayarin to become the primary language of the koinon’s aristocracy (AND royal court in Grand Shayard).
*FYI, for this gameworld, MC presumably brokered a Laconnier-Leaguer coalition, which formed a “World of Warcraft’s High King of the Alliance”-inspired constitution that forever assigns the koinon’s executive seat to the reigning monarch of Shayard’s royal family.
And to sweeten the deal with Phaedra, aristo MC will either ask her to form a marriage alliance with either him (if MC was recently widowed by G4’s tragedies), Teren, or Simon.
(FYI, I left out Abelard, since he’s probably too stubborn of a nationalist to consider marrying a Karagond. Teren, on the other hand, is pragmatic/calculating enough to understand the value of binding Karagon to the koinon via marriage alliance. Hopefully, Teren’s ruthlessness won’t be too much of a dealbreaker for the compassionate Phaedra. Maybe Simon might be the best candidate for MC’s plan here, since his compassion may probably resonate with Phaedra’s compassion, and because Simon may still be loyal to MC on a personal level.)
Fitting/coincidentally, perhaps empowered Shayard will be the modern-day France of this analogy.
(though on the other hand, given how Shayard also has Anglo-Saxon elements, perhaps I should be worried about the Cabelites’ “Brexit”-inspired backlash, aka the potential Earlund separatist movement?)
And @cascat07, on a separate (but still related) note, do you think Phaedra has what it takes to become the Angela Merkel-inspired chancellor of Game 5-reorganized Karagon? (based on the limited information we’ve been given about her so far)
I find it a very interesting parallel that Phaedra has both a strong scientific education/background and a reputation/preference for compassion (similar to Merkel).
However, I will concede that @idonotlikeusernames may have a point about Phaedra’s interpretation of compassion leaning towards the troubling “animal welfare” mindset.
And as another concession to appease the concerns of his angered/paranoid non-Karagond supporter base, MC might also ask for Karagon’s new constitution to include a WW2 Japan-inspired clause about “forever renouncing war as an instrument for settling international disputes and that Karagon will never again maintain land, sea, or air forces or another war potential.”
(aka Karagon’s military (and Theurgic) resources/personnel will be constantly monitored/limited to “self-defense force” levels by the soldiers of the koinon’s other provinces)
On the other hand, since a perpetual ban is inherently unfair to Karagon’s future generations (who aren’t personally responsible for Karagon’s past atrocities), perhaps MC could compromise by trial running the restriction for the next 40-50 years, and then MC’s successor(s) perform a later “parole hearing” to decide if the “new Karagon” has achieved enough atonement/goodwill/credibility to earn back its military privileges?
What a brilliant opportunity for my venture capitalist (er, or Syntechnia debt financer?) merchant prince MC!
Speaking of Greek culture, what is Phaedra’s favorite food? My (eagerly anticipating a dinner date) MC is curious if she prefers lamb gyro wraps, eggplant moussaka, or some other entirely different Greek delicacy.
Duly noted. Then in the spirit of the Laconnier’s “have your cake and eat it too” approach, MC will simply create a new legend (instead of borrowing a past one) by publicly using Game 1’s Theurgically-enhanced sword!
Even though the sword may have been a product of Karagond culture/engineering, under Homelander Lite Laconnier Monarch MC’s skillful/faithful hands, said sword will become a tool in service of Shayard’s liberation! (and eventual rise to power as the leader of the newfound koinon as well!)
Or you just don’t ask…and reconstruct Karagon more along the lines of the Morgenthau plan. They’re just an insignificant province after all. And that is assuming we cannot use Aekos as the demonstration site of a possible magical nuke to start our cold war with Halassur. I mean at the point you’re considering you’d have got them beaten anyway.
Two words: Hereditary reactionaries.
Karagonds version of its Spartan culture must be extirpated, since it is the root of the helotry and the caste system and Aekos itself will be dismantled, like the legends of Troy, one way or the other.
By which I mean to say that if you’ve got the power and the theurgically enhanced lifespan you can justify anything you want.
Personally, assuming it isn’t nuked by either the falling monstrosity of the floating palace or other means my mc would want to turn the to be greatly reduced province (since he will also parcel out as much of the Karagond border regions as he can to adjoining provinces old and new) into the kind of pastoral backwater they’ve kept the region we grew up in as. Remember at present the Karagonds deliberately retard the industrial development of anywhere else…let’s at the very least turn those tables on them.
Hard to say as most of what we know of them is rather speculative at this point. I expect Phaedra’s utility as a tap into past legitimacy (and as a future leader) will be based on how much respect the Thaumatarch’s line retains after the fall of the Hegemony. I think your plan of going nationalist and marrying Phaedra into the line of a Shayard claimant could work, but it seems like a high medieval solution to an industrial problem. More concerning to me is to seems only to shift the oppression from a Karagon-centric one into Karagon-Shayard one (I’m getting Austria-Hungary vibes).
On balance I’m sure Phaedra is as well educated and prepared for rule as a person can be. The open question is if they are a wastrel or not.
Speaking of Wiendrj. How they manage to even feed themselves? If the answer is an import of food from other parts of Hegemony then how did they managed to solve that problem before the Conquest? I assume they needed to trade a lot for food but with what? How they even managed to construct a somewhat unified state of this size when agricultural scarcity is that extreme?
By the way, I base my entire question on the fact that Wiendrj is literally a mountain upon a mountain, from what I saw on the worldmap you provided.
We’ll get into Karagond cuisine in Game 3. It’s on a different latitude and climatic zone than Greece, so don’t expect it to mirror Greece in all aspects, any more than Shayard does England or France.
Like Tibetans and Nepalis do, depending on which part of the realm you’re in–with crops that do OK at higher altitudes, and with a significantly lower resident population than the other archonties have. A lot of Wiends end up in the army or in major cities.
I think this is one of the few goals our MCs wholeheartedly agree on. I wouldn’t be surprised if dismantling Karagon will be all but necessary just to keep whatever coalition gets you to that point from ripping itself apart over the issue. Plus, whatever utility the province possesses as an industrial hub is likely to dissipate once the blood economy comes to a crashing halt and those factories relying on it all start going silent. A rump Karagond kept under the thumb of their neighbors seems like the best outcome they could realistically hope for, at least for the foreseeable future.
The only real way I see that changing is if the province finds itself in the same boots as (West)Germany, as the first line defense against a victorious Hallasurq who’ve taken control of Erezza. In that case, there actually is a pressing reason to rebuild them economically and militarily in order to ensure the remainder of the post-hegemonic states have a bulwark to the east.
Maybe, but Karagon had a far longer time span than Germany ever had to build their dystopia…they actually came far closer to having their thousand year reich for one and their culture is far more dangerous, if only because it has been able to build up hundreds of years of abhorrent “tradition”,…at the minimum it would be a deal with a far worse devil than anything our Allied forces had to contemplate. To the point where if my mc actually had enough magical nukes at that point he may well make the calculation that using them directly against Halassur might be the preferable option in that case, as in deal with the devil you don’t know than with the one you very much do.
But let’s hope it doesn’t come to that since none of those of us with truly grand ambitions can afford to lose too much of Erezza and of course my mc wants Avezia as the new capital and having it be like Seoul…in easy range of enemy artillery and worse…with the same applicable to the potentially vital canal zone too is obviously far less than ideal.
There is a reason the Nazi’s were and still are so enamoured of Sparta. Thankfully Sparta did not exist in an industrial or high tech age, if they had I shudder to think what they would have done.
If you are a helot you are not truly human to the Hegemony either, nor were they in Sparta where helotry was, even for its time, a particularly brutal version of slavery.
They’ll learn, one thing our mc’s have to contend with that the allies didn’t is that there is gonna be a massive famine that cannot be stopped once theurgic agriculture starts failing and of course there are the casualties of the varies civil wars and rebellions…population seems fated to fall and perhaps fall quite drastically no matter who our mc’s are or what they do. The mc might be able to mitigate or exacerbate the coming time of crisis and famine but it seems like they cannot prevent it.
It very well may be…but if that is the price of neutralising Karagon long-term my mc would certainly be willing to pay it. Also as @Verand already noted once the blood economy collapses that is going to render a lot of the pre-existing industrial infrastructure useless anyway as it runs on mass harvested slave blood that will never be available and certainly not in anwhere near current volume again.
Still turning the tables and de-industrialising Karagon and then preventing them from re-industrialsing does seem like good policy in the setting and of course a way of turning the tables on them as currently Karagon is actively suppressing anywhere else in its provinces from being able to industrialize to any meaningful degree.
When it comes to anything to do with Karagon and its culture that is unquestionably a very bad thing. But that seems like a decision each mc must make for themselves, if yours wants to throw them the Karagon-Shayard imperial lifeline that is your business, neither of my mc’s would even contemplate it.
To be honest, if the Nazis had their way it will be far worse than what Karagond did, at least they cooperated with those that collaborated with them and “merely” enslaved others. Generalplan Ost (the Nazi plan for Eastern Europe) called for the ethnic cleasing of millions of Slavs, Baltic peoples (the vast majority I might add) in order to made way for Germans, unfeasibility aside, this will probably be the greatest atrocity the Nazis ever committed eclipsing the Holoucaust if implemented, it was fortunate that they were defeated before they can do any of those heinous actions. So I feel that the comparisons with the Nazis is a bit too much, Karagond to my mind is more similar to the Aztecs or Assyrians (not culturally) as empires/states that were extremely brutal even for their times but hadn’t
gone over the pale yet to states like Nazi Germany or Pol Pot-led Cambodia who can’t be negotiated with because you are not human to them/stands in the way of their abstract ideological goal.
With that aside, I do agree with some of your points like banning some of Karagond more heinous practices e.g Helots though culture change is a bit harder since “culture” is an abstract and ill-defined concepts that can morph and change with the times so I hope with the banning of bad practices then people will change along with it if not I can work with Phaedra to encourage those changes. The Morgenthau plan is a big no-no though, since the proposed one are extremely ill-conceived and can be pretty much an atrocity comparable to what the Nazis did (since many cities-living people won’t have the skills necessary to farm) and I expect that Karagond holds way more people than it’s land can support. And Weapons of Mass Destruction like Nukes should only be used when the enemy continually refused to fold or when they used it first. My MC might be biased due to being a noble but he’s also somewhat compassionate as in though kindness had it limits and his limits are deeper than many.
I’ve also seen comparisons with Karagon-Shayard union with the Austro-Hungarian Empire though tbh I don’t see it as that much of a bad thing. Like AH had an unwanted view as a crumbling house of cards that can collapse at every moment but they’re more durable than many people think and it took the destruction of their military, economy, etc… in one of the most destructive wars of the 20th century for it to fail. That’s not to say that it doesn’t have any issues one of them suprisingly being the Hungarian rulling classes refusing to budge on any reforms, but here with both sides committed to reforming the state for the better I can at least be cautiously opitimistic. Not to mention you can’t please all people since they have divergent interests so we need a dedicated powerbase that support whatever plans we wish to implement so it’s good that we have two major provinces in our pockets, so I think that a joint Karagon-Shayard led state won’t be as bad as some might think.
That seems a bit too far-fetched of a comparison, no? Sparta was state during Ancient Greece which means it has to operated within the geopolitical, cultural confines of that period, while yes there were practices that the Spartans themselves came up that were barbaric, not to mention the advent of the industrial revolution was transformative in many ways that will probably be seen alien to the Ancient Greeks, so it’s hard to really know what Sparta will be able to adapt for the better (or worse) to advanced technologies.
Many Right-wing movements during the 20th century was enamoured with Sparta due to the their militaristic nature but it seems reductionist to me to simply assign Sparta as being the main influence of these movements instead of homegrown ideological development. The Nazis for example was influenced by many things like Italian Fascism, German Far-Right ideology devoloped during the Wilheimine and Weimar periods of German history. Not to mention, Hitler even praised Islam for it’s “warrior nature” and Kemal as a"star in the darkness", if anyone tried to make comparisons of Nazism with these things they will be ridiculed, rightfully so/
Which sort of Theurgic nuke did you have in mind?
Perhaps some sort of giant fireball/meteor? (fueled by the combined blood of several dozen Theurges, along with added boosts from several Talismans)
Or does the crashing Aekos itself count as its own nuke?
Duly noted, I’ll be sure to have Eclect MC give stern reminders to the Archimandrites (and the rest of the Xthonic priesthood’s leadership) about the need to preach against “the evils of the old regime”. (while making sure to have them include the disclaimer that Phaedra and her Karagond splinter faction are “white sheep exceptions” who share Eclect MC’s vision of a brighter, more just future).
I imagine that as part of her bargain/collusion with MC, Phaedra would request that in exchange for MC’s forces using her shortcut (to have an easier time infiltrating the palace with few to no casualties), she insists upon the following conditions:
1- Aekos needs to be left intact as reasonably possible (or if Aekos is going to be inevitably destroyed, then at least give Phaedra’s supporters enough advance warning/time to slow Aekos’ descent and/or evacuate Karagon),
2- Kleitos needs to be captured/imprisoned, instead of killed (since I imagine Phaedra is still feeling somewhat sentimental/compassionate towards her beloved dad, despite her betrayal of him)
Harsh, but necessary bribes to appease MC’s koinon member provinces, though MC will do his best to lessen the sting by pushing to allow Phaedra to keep at least half of Karagon’s original territory, including a rebuilt (albeit permanently grounded) Aekos.
(or alternatively, carry some Aekos’ marble shards back to Grand Shayard, and then at the end of G5’s post-Hegemony war (when all is said and done), gift the “New Aekos” manor (constructed from the old Aekos’ marble shards) as a wedding anniversary present to Phaedra ?)
Assuming that most (if not all) of the Ennearchs will initially be leading their own “Hegemony remnant” factions in Game 5 (which may or may not overlap with the Big Three), perhaps that respect could come in handy for re-integrating those Ennearchs (and their respective Theurge corps) back into Phaedra’s fold (and thus, by extension, also hopefully integrating them into MC’s koinon).
(Though PS, the Ennearchs will still be required to pay reparation fees to MC’s koinon as punishment for their past Ward-related Harrowings).
Like I said earlier, I’ve been feeling very sentimental about my approach towards these imagined playthroughs these recent days.
I suspect there may be a potential Game 2 workaround to this perceived “unfair special treatment for Karagon” issue:
When forging the Laconnier credentials, perhaps MC should proactively forge credentials for multiple claimants? (instead of limiting it for just himself or some other single ally)
That way, we feature the return of “The One True King” (and his cadet branch princes/princesses)!
(while also creating sufficient “marriage alliance” slot availability to bind all four non-Shayard provinces (Wiendrj, Nyryal, Erezza, and Karagon) to the Shayardene throne)
On the other hand, am I perhaps asking for trouble by inviting a “Dance of the Dragons”-inspired dynastic succession crisis for Game 5’s epilogue?
FYI, another intended analogy that I’d like to achieve for “High King of the Alliance” Shayard is modern-day America (taking responsibility for both the koinon’s military dominance/bulk of spending), while the non-Shayard provinces (similar to modern-day Europe) gain the freedom to reallocate their budgets for developing social services/amenities/welfare programs).
I have a hard time imagining that the overriding concern for these protoindustrial societies in catastrophic violent freefall will be the character and quality of their respective welfare states. Security almost certainly will take precedence both from the external eldritch horrors and the internal unrest doing its best The Purge impression.
Yeah, I think that can invite trouble when had there ever be good things about spliting your realms among your offsprings which will probably alllow ambitious younger siblings a vehicle to displace the intended heir causing instability to the realm in the worst of times.
I think it’s best to just turn Shayard and Karagond into crown lands with the ruler directly rulling or appointing someone in his stead, with the other provinces I think it’s more opitmal to just have them under non-hereditary governors that can be replaced every 3-4 years so they can’t build a powerbase at all. If you wished for a purely noble-run kingdom you can appoint houses that are positive or at least neutral to your cause. Though this probably still gonna emerge a chance for the other provinces to unite and overthrow the diarchy of Karagon-Shayard and requires politically savy monarchs to play these groups off so I am more inclined towards hereditary governorships of the other provinces
I think this betrays our somewhat Victorian inspired modern view of nobility where they were mostly already largely powerless figureheads. A more reasonable fit to the situation would be the dark age nobility where titles were won and lost by strength of arms and petty kingdoms constantly threatened by sea raiders and their neighbors. Nobility was inextricably linked to the resources and skill to fight and win battles.
Well, the Thaumatarchy is very much an administrative state, with the nobles’ military power being close to nonexistent - they exist as a recruitment pool for Phalangites and Theurges, and their feudal levies are a joke used to deal with rabble like the Whendward Band.
Right, but I’m assuming that after state collapse the ones that will be worth recruiting to the cause will be due to either their martial ability, retinue, wealth or all three. I suppose our MC could generate a coup that could preserve most of the local regime? So you may be right.
Still the nobility of the Hegemony is less the idle rich of the Victorian era and are still more a “nobility of the sword.” More like the gentry that composed the professional officer corps of the British Empire than the titled nobility.
Well, military-wise the existing nobility are not likely to be very useful if theurgy remains the arm of decision. You’re right that they tend to be less “idle rich” and more “the recruiting pool for the military and government,” but they still have very little direct power as a class - though they are likely to be important in terms of providing literate followers, in game terms. You know, the people who we’ll need to govern any territory we take, or to provide a recruitment base for theurges. The way our rebellion started, our actual practitioners of violence are likely to come as much from the helotry and yeomanry.
But it’ll be entirely possible for our resident Helot Mao to do away with the aristocracy as an institution.
Our ability to contest the Hegemony at the high end in symmetric theurgical combat is probably pretty far off. I’d expect we’ll still be running an insurgency predominantly until blood supplies get so thin that the Hegemony’s numerical superiority in trained theurges counts for a lot less. Not that theurgy won’t be decisive, just that other methods could prove as effective in the near term.
To your point the nobility will probably be more effective in subtle ways like gumming up the works of the administration of the Hegemony rather than directly confronting it on the battlefield.
I guess my mind just jumped right to the post-collapse scenarios rather than the utility of the nobility in getting there.
This is not what I envisioned things though? My MC is pretty aware that if he want to at least have a decent chance of both gaining (and rulling) the vast majority of the former Hegemony’s lands he gonna have to work with regional strongmen from other regions post-collapse so what I am proposing for a “purely noble-led kingdom” is more about distributing spoils among your allies in exchange for their goodwill rather than giving them powers that they might or might not have.
Personally due to me wanting non-hereditary officials to balance noble influence, I based my proposed state on Medieval Japan where both systems (imperial and regional) work in tandem with each other (Feudal domains were used alongside Imperial Provinces). This is not without issues though, since my historical comprisons, imperial power was strictly ceremonial and only confer legitimacy among your claims and you need to have the abilty to enforce them to make that worthwhile, so this is pretty experimental on my part to see if this works or not.
Ah, I assumed you were referring to the existing nobility rather than a new “Bonapartist” style of titles given out to administer the state and reward your followers. Honestly the parallel authority model has a lot of historical precedent even outside Japan so that’s probably a viable structure as well.
You make a good point; nice catch there! Though perhaps the “military spender vs welfare spender” province comparison could be an outcome we achieve by the time of Game 5’s epilogue, right? (after the post-Hegemony war is concluded, and the game world has had several decades/centuries to test the limits of its new world order).
I was imagining that the future conflict would most likely be between cousins; but yeah, rival siblings makes sense too.
#1: How would Cerlota feel about MC’s proposal/dream that the future post-Hegemony Theurges should be repurposed to become the XoR version of GoT’s Maesters? (serving as advisors to nobility/royalty while also advancing scientific progress throughout the realm), but are barred (by policy) from ever directly holding a Thaumatarch-level monopoly on political power)
(And on a separate (but possibly related note), Homelander Theurge Helot MC can already imagine himself becoming an eccentric Rasputin-inspired mystic of the Laconnier royal court (perhaps even to the extent of gaining the job of the royal court’s Archwisard?), while also having close relationships/implicit trust from both King Abelard and Queen Suzanne.)
#2: Alternatively, how would Cerlota feel about MC’s (other potential) proposal/dream that all post-Hegemony Theurges should be repurposed to become a nonpartisan border security force/monastic order that swears an oath to defend the entire realm? (with GoT’s Night’s Watch being my chosen analogy in mind)
In game worlds where she’s not executed/imprisoned, if Calea could somehow be meaningfully reformed/rehabilitated in MC’s imagined new world order, Calea (and other aristos with her similar skillset) could also come in handy for developing the future nation-state’s intelligence/espionage agency.
Plus, there’s also the potential Laconnier-Kryptast connection for our MCs to consider! (and potentially co-opt)
What could be so shocking/scary at Aveche that’s as equally urgent as helping Erezza fend off (or negotiate a ceasefire with) Halassur?
