Choice of Rebels: Uprising — Lead the revolt against a bloodthirsty empire!

[mshan95032]

@Ramidel

It’s not “doesn’t yield as much power.” It’s more like “bleeding people nonlethally doesn’t produce a meaningful amount of aether at all, especially compared to the costs, financial and otherwise, of doing so.” You’ll spend more aetherial blood keeping the people alive than you get by blood drives.

The blood is not an aether-dense tissue. That’s the brain.

@Havenstone

Hey, Plektosis braintrust! Get me some laser sharks!

@Ramidel Ah, thanks for clarifying! And looking back on @Havenstone’s earlier post from Nov 2021, I now feel silly for not picking up on his braintrust clue.

@NotMyRealName

but my position is more not harrowing people with captured blood being fair game.

Ah yes, the elephant in the room that is captured blood. Though I understand the pragmatism behind the decision, I always did find it amusingly hypocritical for our “we need to stop the G1 Harrowing!” theurge MC to suddenly turn around and grab the vials of the recently slaughtered (and anybody else who sees him/her do it just lets it slide because he recently saved the day).

Hopefully, @Havenstone will allow for a later game dialogue option that lets MC express some sort of emotionally charged, nuanced reasoning for treating captured blood as fair game (despite working to end Harrowing in general): “It’s too late to save our already Harrowed friends/family, but it’s never too late to poetically avenge them!”

@NotMyRealName

I think not harrowing anyone and teaching everyone theurgy has potential to be more efficient long term as people seem to be able to regenerate their own aether so this has aspects of not milking your blood cow dry.

Sounds very exciting in theory, but I’m curious about how it would turn out when finally practiced. Does this “need to recharge aether” policy mean that only a maximum of half of your helot wisards are on “active magical duty” at any given time?

And what exactly would you be doing with this hypothetical ‘resting half’ of your wisard workforce? Are they…
#1: still fighting with conventional weapons (e.g. swords, maces, clubs) on the front lines,
#2: temporarily reassigned to non-combat roles,
#3: or sleeping away their stresses/worries at highly defended, discreet locations

@NotMyRealName

20 million Shayardene helots to your side

@NotMyRealName

redistributing the noble estates

How much anarchy did you cause during your Game 1 playthrough?

If you were feeling generous enough to pursue a Low Anarchy run, do Simon/Suzanne (and the remaining minority of nobles sympathetic to your MC’s cause) still have a place in your new helot-led world order?

Minus their ancestral sword, Simon/Suzanne was otherwise mostly okay with surrendering all of their possessions for Low Anarchy MC’s rebellion.

And last I remembered, an INT-focused helot MC can have fond memories of being shown kindness/opportunities for education from Ganelon Tarakatou.

And is it possible that your MC could find common cause with G2’s open-minded, Leaguer-affiliated nobles? (positioning yourself as the best available champion for their “cosmopolitan koinon” dream, and as a show of good faith, also promise to fairly reimburse the Leaguers for their soon-to-be-redistributed noble estates)

@NotMyRealName

NATO is a formal agreement between states and relies on structures and legal understandings that I don’t think would be codifiable here

@NotMyRealName

record keeping likely would remain not great

Did your MC manage to invite Bleys into the band during G1? (and does your MC also have any future plans for co-opting other ex-Hegemony bureaucrats (e.g. other Telones) into the fold?)

And in general, did your MC find time to invest in literacy lessons for his band during G1’s winter?

Recruiting enough Telones (who are skilled at clerical work/accounting/bookkeeping, and know how to speak, decipher, and teach legalese) to educate your helots could secure your tribal confederation’s…
#1: Administrative needs (e.g. the above mentioned structures, legal understandings, and record-keeping),
#2: White-collar career training (for any helots who aren’t content being mere farmhands and tribal militia/muscle),
#3: and nation-wide literacy/general education in the long run.

@NotMyRealName

Horion has dialogue

I’m especially looking forward to the possibility of my MC reuniting with (a hopefully still alive and healthy) Horion during later games!

Despite his aristo-centric worldview, he’s quite the chill, informative, and invaluable source of exposition (along with functioning as a good sounding board for MC’s ideals/ambitions).

On another note, however, I’m semi-dreading the prospect of having to explain to (prospective RO) Teren why I broke guest right to ‘kidnap’ her ‘dear uncle Horion’. (and hopefully, Teren will be pragmatic/forgiving enough to accept the below following hypothetical)

“Teren, sweetie, do you understand how many people out there want your uncle dead? Whether he understood it or not, he clearly benefited from my band’s protection at his direst hour of need.”)

@NotMyRealName

aren’t especially concerned with being in charge after preferring to study their magic and help maintain the system.

So basically, a Dumbledore-like mage who has the knowledge/prowess to seize absolute power, but ultimately chooses to shy away from that path? (in favor of pursuing academics and maintaining a peaceful balance of power with (and amongst) everybody else)
Cerlota would be so proud.

@NotMyRealName

and the priests i’m planning to bribe into not caring all that much about religious differences with the abhumans and also have them preach the new state of affairs

Which G1 movement/ideology did you choose, by the way?
I doubt the priests would be willing to work with any Kenon/skeptical MC, and the Ecclesiasts in particular seem to resent MC’s Inner Voice path for challenging their religious authority (if my damaged G1 priest relations meter is of any indication), so I’m guessing your MC leaned towards Eclect?

@NotMyRealName

preferring to study their magic

What’s your plan on dealing with Sarcifer in later games?
Do you consider him too dangerous to live? (especially given @Havenstone’s past mentions about Sarcifer’s probable plan to manipulate MC into becoming his useful pawn)
Or, do you instead see the usefulness of keeping Sarcifer around as your ally/potential mentor? (either because you genuinely value having him around, or because you’re adopting the “keep your friends close and enemies closer” approach)

@Havenstone

G3 for Whendery ( or the Westriding, for the Cabels), G4 for Nyryal (or the Reach), G5 for Erezza (or Aveche) – chapters that allow you to broaden your influence beyond Shayard and/or consolidate influence within it.

@Havenstone

and your engagement with them can determine whether they withdraw into a narrow Westriding-plus-Rim yeoman nationalism that feels betrayed by and alienated from the coastal elite, or hold to a broader Shayardene identity.

@Havenstone For players who are ambitious enough to want both a united Shayard AND connections with multiple provinces, will it be possible for MC to achieve both goals by simply delegating responsibility (for the “region not personally visited by MC”) to the correct lieutenant?

(E.g. G3: MC (and the majority of his band) stay in Westriding to attempt creating (and maintaining) a four-way coalition between his rebellion, the Laconniers, the Leaguers, and the Cabels; meanwhile, Breden (aka “Herald of the Eclect”) and an elite bodyguard escort are tasked with evangelizing the devout clans of Wiendrj into joining MC’s Xthonist denomination (with Zvad (or another Whendward bandit veteran) escorting Breden to advise her on the finer details of Whendish clan culture).

(Other e.g. G4: Regardless if Alaine is convinced to outright join the rebellion in G3 (or remains a discreet external asset), perhaps she (or another Syntechnia merchant) could be MC’s chosen ambassador to Nyryal. Meanwhile, MC and Breden organize a summit at the Reach for the following two objectives:
#1- further coax the mainstream Xthonist leadership into endorsing (or at least tolerating) MC’s Xthonist denomination
#2- broker an ecumenical alliance (aka oikoumene) between Xthonists and Abhumans)

[Ramidel]

@mshan95032

I always did find it amusingly hypocritical for our “we need to stop the G1 Harrowing!” theurge MC to suddenly turn around and grab the vials of the recently slaughtered

Fortunately, my MC (arrogant aristo) didn’t object to Harrowing - just “Xthonos, man, what are you doing Harrowing children?”

Which might be funny later, since Havie has mentioned that it’ll be possible to adopt the Halassurq religion and their tradition of Harrowing children instead of adults.

[NotMyRealName]

@mshan95032

I always did find it amusingly hypocritical for our “we need to stop the G1 Harrowing!” theurge MC to suddenly turn around and grab the vials of the recently slaughtered

I didn’t actually find that hypocritical at all as my objection was to harrowing not to using the blood

@mshan95032

Does this “need to recharge aether” policy mean that only a maximum of half of your helot wisards are on “active magical duty” at any given time?

And what exactly would you be doing with this hypothetical ‘resting half’ of your wisard workforce? Are they…
#1: still fighting with conventional weapons (e.g. swords, maces, clubs) on the front lines,
#2: temporarily reassigned to non-combat roles,
#3: or sleeping away their stresses/worries at highly defended, discreet locations

it likely would but half is still a lot or at least a maximum of half would be on duty regularly at a time in a major emergency that could probably be increased and if there’s nothing to do it could be lessened to a quarter assigned to practice. As to what the others are doing probably a mixture of 1 and 2 as needed. Or 3 if they don’t have any work to do

@mshan95032

If you were feeling generous enough to pursue a Low Anarchy run, do Simon/Suzanne (and the remaining minority of nobles sympathetic to your MC’s cause) still have a place in your new helot-led world order?

With mass adoption of theurgy their combat skill is less important and my MC’s is more that we won’t actively pursue revenge killings but if their former helots immediately kill them after learning magic they probably deserved it. Nobles who are left will be integrated into the merchant class.

@mshan95032

Minus their ancestral sword, Simon/Suzanne was otherwise mostly okay with surrendering all of their possessions for Low Anarchy MC’s rebellion.

to an extent they were ok with surrendering some of their personal wealth but were hesitant about surrendering any of the traditional rights of the nobility. Kalt/Kala makes a better fit for my rebellion as their charisma is helpful and their “kill em all” position is less of a contradiction than a desire to protect the noble’s land and position.

@mshan95032

And last I remembered, an INT-focused helot MC can have fond memories of being shown kindness/opportunities for education from Ganelon Tarakatou.

My MC will be sad that Ganelon and he were fated to be enemies but will likely eventually conclude that the man didn’t see him as more than a curiosity and come to find it funny that a noble was the one who gave him the power of theurgy.

@mshan95032

And is it possible that your MC could find common cause with G2’s open-minded, Leaguer-affiliated nobles? (positioning yourself as the best available champion for their “cosmopolitan koinon” dream, and as a show of good faith, also promise to fairly reimburse the Leaguers for their soon-to-be-redistributed noble estates)

Likely not I haven’t been actively antagonising the nobility for the sake of it but both my MC and the nobility would likely understand implicitly that the nobility are better off under the hegemony than my rebellion. Also if I was to reimburse them it would only be with money I stole from them.

@mshan95032

Did your MC manage to invite Bleys into the band during G1? (and does your MC also have any future plans for co-opting other ex-Hegemony bureaucrats (e.g. other Telones) into the fold?)

I’ll take all the ex-hegemony bureaucrats I can get but after all the anarchy that this rebellion is likely going to cause anything more than a tribal confederation is unlikely to be maintainable especially with every tom dick and harry being able to blow themselves and others to kingdom come. How would you have for example a modern justice system in those circumstances it’s infeasible but the law of guest right would be self enforcing by contrast.

@mshan95032

Recruiting enough Telones (who are skilled at clerical work/accounting/bookkeeping, and know how to speak, decipher, and teach legalese) to educate your helots could secure your tribal confederation’s…
#1: Administrative

Mainly those roles might be better suited to diamond as they are more numerous and already embedded with the helotry

@mshan95032

the Ecclesiasts in particular seem to resent MC’s Inner Voice path for challenging their religious authority (if my damaged G1 priest relations meter is of any indication), so I’m guessing your MC leaned towards Eclect?

The Ecclesiastes are less interesting to me as the diamond who seem more practically useful so I went inner voice which they seem to approve of. Also as my MC doesn’t have the charisma likely needed to pull off being the central religious figure

@mshan95032

What’s your plan on dealing with Sarcifer in later games?
Do you consider him too dangerous to live? (especially given @Havenstone’s past mentions

I guess see what he wants it might be that he wants to manipulate me into what I already wanted to do. Either way there’s likely value in pretending to be his guy for a while at least. Even if we end up disagreeing ideally he could just go somewhere else in the hegemony and do his thing

[NotMyRealName]

It was children you know when you objected which could be a big factor in the objection and you were a sheltered aristocrat then now you’re used to killing people as a solution to problems bound to influence your perspective

[idonotlikeusernames]

@mshan95032

Or, if the mouthpiece idea is not enough (or won’t work in the first place), then perhaps helot MC could rely on the “outside hire from Grand Shayard” to forge evidence of a bloodline?

My whole alternative scheme was explicitly made with the idea of not having to cede too much ground and credit (certainly in the later stages of it) to aristo’s in mind. It’s essentially them being outplayed by a (former) helot at their own game.

It may milk being made a Wiendish clan chief for all it is worth and then some…but at no point would that alternative mc deny or need to deny his helot origins…after all his original Wiendish followers made him chief knowing full well of his origins .

In any case in his helot origins would still be a source of strength, if not pride for that mc too, even if he does aim to rise far above them. That mc will also still outlaw slavery as one of his foremost goals and the caste system too…it’s just that compared to my canon mc he is less opposed to a more traditional class system, as long as it is one that is (theoretically) run on merit instead of bloodline alone.
That said of course that second mc is very well willing to adopt certain “noble” mannerisms and dress codes, although he would make sure his are Wiendish inflected (his new homeland) instead of Shayardene…which still hopefully neatly avoids ending up looking too much like Hector or some fop from Grand Shayard.

The biggest difference between those two divergent mc paths however is that one is, in essence, a revolutionary and a truly radical one at that while the other is more of a politician (who just comes from just about the worst background a politician could have in the game world), even if a highly idealistic one, using revolutionary methods whenever it suits him.

@NotMyRealName

Napoleon issues aristocratic titles and offices that were only held for life and not inheritable.

That is certainly one idea that would appeal to my alternative mc, yes. Note that it is already sorta how he’d plan to become high King of Wiendrj…by making it an elected office among all the clan leaders…but seeing as how as @P_Tigras used to say it will probably be necessary to wipe out half of the existing ones anyway that would of course easily leave him with enough of a combination of newly installed loyalists who directly owe their own position to him and his clan and some old converts who can see which way the wind is blowing, so that election should be a cakewalk then.
But it may very well not be for less adept potential successors and my little gay mc would actually be fine with that.

[NotMyRealName]

@idonotlikeusernames

less opposed to a more traditional class system, as long as it is one that is (theoretically) run on merit instead of bloodline alone.

Napoleon issues aristocratic titles and offices that were only held for life and not inheritable.

It would be interesting to find out how helots normally fit into the whendish clan system and how it normally functions

[NotMyRealName]

@idonotlikeusernames

it will probably be necessary to wipe out half of the existing ones anyway

Well looking at it glass half full a massive war would reduce the unsustainable food requirements although not the ideal solution

[idonotlikeusernames]

@NotMyRealName

Well looking at it glass half full a massive war would reduce the unsustainable food requirements although not the ideal solution

That’s half the existing clan leadership and most likely the ones either too loyal to Karagon and its system or those who cannot stomach an upstart clan led by a fomer helot that they would rather fight to the death. This is pretty standard for a revolution and half of the pre-existing leadership is not half the population.

That may well still happen too if severe famines become unavoidable no matter what any of our mc’s do, but one does not automatically flow from the other.

[NotMyRealName]

That makes more sense altgough despite your clan status to many wiends the fact we were made a clan chief of 20 or so people in the backwoods of Shayard might not mean much and the clan chiefs of those clans could probably whip up opposition to the MC especially as they are a foreigner and a helot

[Havenstone]

@Ramidel

do the warrior Yega’a practice combat theurgy

They can–though given that they’re using only their own blood, they couldn’t go toe-to-toe with a human Theurge equipped with phials in a major Change-duel. Their uses tend to involve short bursts of super-speed, hardening talons to break armor, hardening natural body armor to repel attacks, etc.

@mshan95032

what is the Seracca’s cultural attitude towards “marrying for love vs. marrying to form (or cement) political alliances”

Neither the Federation nor Seracca mating practices are well suited to the concept of a “marriage alliance.” Monogamous lifelong pairing isn’t seen as the paradigm mating practice; and the bonds of federation between clans aren’t dependent on or strongly affected by intermating. So no, hooking up with either Abhuman is not going to establish a political relationship with the Federation.

@mshan95032

Does this ‘great gulf’ have an official name (or nickname) yet?

Xaos-landers call it the Abhuman Gulf. Abhumans call it the Brauracha Gulf.

@mshan95032

is it within our MC’s power during later games … to depose Halassur’s current leadership

Absolutely not. Deposing the leadership of the empire you actually live in is hard enough. And Erjan has no family ties to the Emperor.

“Helot-led change disguised as aristo-led change” is definitely going to be an option, though.

@mshan95032

could Xthonists and Abhumans at least perceive the value of banding together to form an ecumenical alliance? (e.g. something akin to the real-life “World Council of Churches”)

The day job I’m in the process of handing over is with an ecumenical diakonal mission, indirectly linked by our governance to both the WCC and the World Evangelical Alliance. We also do lots of interfaith engagement and peacebuilding work with Hindu, Buddhist, Kirant, and Muslim religious leaders in our working areas.

There is a big difference between oikumene among different branches of a single faith and interfaith engagement between religious groups that don’t recognize each other as sharing a common set of core beliefs/religious values and practices.

The reach of Christian ecumenism is limited even among Christians. The WCC is primarily a coalition of Euro-American mainline Protestant denominations; it has limited participation from evangelical-Pentecostal Protestantism (which looks to the WEA, to the extent that it affiliates with a global trans-denominational network at all), an often-uneasy relationship with its Eastern Orthodox members, and amiable but strictly limited cooperation with Catholicism.

The different major Christian groupings struggle to turn their shared values into a concrete program of action that isn’t disrupted by bicketing over differences. (The same could be said of e.g. Theravada and Vajrayana Buddhism, Sunni and Shi’i Islam, etc.) It’s even harder to bring unity in an interfaith context – which the Xhthonos/Theoi relationship certainly is. We all value compassion and justice, but as soon as you get past the shallows and look at what that actually means – both how we define those terms, and what the practical consequences are – it’s a lot harder to turn surface agreement into united action.

Peace and tolerance can (must!) be fruitfully pursued in both arenas. But true ecumenical unity is a distant goal even within major faith streams, let alone between different faiths. Don’t expect most Abhumans or Xthonists to agree that “compassion and community” makes them fundametally one.

@mshan95032

What exactly is the current population size of all the Hegemony’s helots…

All population numbers are still subject to change, and thus not being given out.

@mshan95032

For players who are ambitious enough to want both a united Shayard AND connections with multiple provinces, will it be possible for MC to achieve both goals by simply delegating responsibility (for the “region not personally visited by MC”) to the correct lieutenant?

You’ll have weaker connections to the places you haven’t visited yourself. So if you’ve focused on forging Hegemony-wide ties, you’ll be more vulnerable to a Game 5 crackup of Shayard; if you’ve focused on Shayard, you’ll be less likely to sustain strong alliances across the Hegemony. Your various deputies and ambassadors can mitigate this dilemma but not completely remove it.

@mshan95032

last I remembered, an INT-focused helot MC can have fond memories of being shown kindness/opportunities for education from Ganelon Tarakatou.

Did you ever meet Ganelon again in Ch 3? Not a very strong basis for an alliance, alas. (@idonotlikeusernames, surprised you didn’t react to this one.)

[Ramidel]

@Havenstone

So if you’ve focused on forging Hegemony-wide ties, you’ll be more vulnerable to a Game 5 crackup of Shayard

Kuria Alya Seriatou will rule over the united lands of the Hegemony! No step back!

[cascat07]

New chairman same as the old Tsar…

[Bryce_Kaldwin]

Unless we can find a way to stop the Xaos Storms without using the Wards or stop the Hallasarq from using Theurgy…

Someone must always be Harrowed.

Ukraine just proves though that giving up your nukes on some premise of mutual agreement between two powers doesn’t work.

Unless we subjugate the Hallasarq and dominate them utterly and end the Xaos-Storms. Some form of large-scale Harrowing to supply our armies has to continue. There’s no way a fragmented Hegemony could maintain the blood supply required to keep up the magic-yield numbers. So millions are going to starve regardless.

[Ramidel]

Well, there is a possible alternative on the agricultural front. We know that the Diadoch has been looking into unleashing biotech on crops to allow them multiple harvests and monoculture farms without theurgically blooming the harvest (and ruining the soil’s growth telos).

So if we can do something about the Storms and make peace with the Abhumans, then right there that’s most of the wards going down; if we can do that and make a breakthrough in crop genetics, then the possibility of ending or phasing out Harrowing without achieving @poison_mara’s dream of mass starvation.

[Bryce_Kaldwin]

Won’t stop it in-time.

It’ll be more of a, after-the-fact fix.

Realistically, it’s going to take years and it’s not like the populace is adequately fed to begin with.

[cascat07]

Just to strain the WWII analogy a little further, it’s not like the Allies wanted to give the Soviet Union anything at Yalta. They just knew they needed to to win the peace. Ezzra or part of it might be enough to appease Hallasarq. Prior to the inevitable Cold War that is…

[Bryce_Kaldwin]

My opinion on the matter is that it’s not wise to give up mountainous territory we’re going to eventually have to retake.

[cascat07]

Much like the carpathians the point might be moot by the time we can do something about it. Hallasarq will probably already have occupied it.

The Hegemony is going the be pressed hard from the West and I can’t see why Hallasarq wouldn’t take advantage.

[NotMyRealName]

@Havenstone

Not a very strong basis for an alliance, alas. (@idonotlikeusernames, surprised you didn’t react to this one.)

I kind of did that was what I was basing my theory that Ganelon only ever saw you as an interesting curiosity rather than a person as a helot on

[NotMyRealName]

@Bryce_Kaldwin

Unless we can find a way to stop the Xaos Storms without using the Wards or stop the Hallasarq from using Theurgy…

If a large number of people can maintain a ward with their own blood this isn’t the case