Sorry guys, busy with Pon Para atm, so my minmaxed Pacifist guide sort of got lost in limbo. It will get done though! And don’t worry, Poric and Alless will live (though personally, I like the Radmar Shrooms scene better than the wedding one).
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So I just have two quick questions that hopefully someone can answer:
Exactly how many epithets are in the game? I don’t need to know what they are or how to get them, this is just so I can see how many I’m still missing. So far I have found 6. 4 from my followers, and 2 from the Thaumatarchy.
It’s common knowledge that if we let Horion and Linos continue on traveling undisturbed then they are eventually killed by someone else that is waiting for them to reach the end of the Whendward Pass. If we choose to hold them hostage (for a ransom or otherwise) and then free them just before the battle with the Archon, do they survive? They probably still end up dead, but I just thought to ask since it isn’t told to you in the game their fate if you decide to do this. I’m not sure how much time passes between taking them to your camp and the battle, but if it is long enough then Horion’s enemies would surely just presume that your rebels “took care of him” ourselves.
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Speaking only about epithets there are currently 6 of them. 3 by your followers and 3 by the Thaumatarchy.
Apart from these you can get a few other titles: one is that of a self taught theurge/wisard, two others correspond to the religion path you decide to take (Kenon and Common Angelic Voice) last is is that of a martyr if you die.
Horion and Linos “visit” our camp during the spring and the Archon’s army arrives in summer, so they are hostages for only a few months. But I’m pretty sure they stay alive if we release them before army comes. Though honestly I’m still on the fence of whether Horion truly died if we let them go after our meeting or if they faked their deaths. It certainly would get that Alastor captain off their trails and Horion’s smart enough to do it.
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Thank you! I don’t know how in the world I thought I got 4 from my followers; I’ll have to recheck that. Also, personally, I think your Horion theories make sense. Although I’m not sure if the story specifically states that their bodies were discovered.
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I just went back and checked the game says “they were found dead…filled with arrows”. That may count as good enough proof they died but that may as well be someone else made to look like them, since the Archon and the nobles were only looking for an excuse to send as many troops as possible.
I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
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Will we able to improve situation of drudges/city poor of Shayard?
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You can certainly try!
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“I have liberated the Proletariat!”
“How?”
“By enslaving them onto collective farms.”
“Genius! Inspired! What’s the agricultural yield?”
“2.5 million tons.”
“THAT’S NOT GOOD.”
“Call it 5 million.”
“Genius!”
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I just want a Constitutional Monarchy where every Shayardene is free while not giving a crap for what happens in the others realms.
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#1: Might these Shayard drudges/peasants happen to have their own underground safe haven? (akin to the colorful and vibrant Court of Miracles from Hunchback of Notre Dame)
I can already imagine my “friend of the commoners” MC gaping in awe as he’s invited/escorted through the “hallowed halls” of this yet-to-be-titled safe haven.
#2: How loyal and tight-knit (or cutthroat/treacherous) are the Shayard drudges/peasants amongst themselves (by the time of Game 2’s start), and who are their most prominent (starting) leaders?
Personally, I’d like to pilot a Boba Fett-inspired MC, a warlord/cartel leader who would ideally prefer to rule with respect and a shared “honor amongst thieves” code (instead of ruling with fear), but can still be ruthless in pursuit of his goals (especially against those would dare betray his trust and hurt his loved ones).
#1: There’s been plenty of intriguing discussion in this forum about what kind of Constitutional Monarchy each player would like to create; glad to see you’re contributing!
#2: By the way, how much (or how little) power do you envision this constitutional monarch having?
Given that you said that you want “every Shayardene to be free”, does this mean you would prefer monarch to be an entirely ceremonial figurehead? (whose purpose is mostly to serve as a cultural symbol/source of tourism revenue, while an elected parliament and prime minister wield the actual power)
Or, is your ideal monarch somebody who still leads the kingdom’s day-to-day operations, but is periodically audited/held accountable by his own constituents?
After having read about all this recurring talk of Mao Zedong-inspired MC’s (every once in a while on this forum), I’d now like to offer my own two cents potential on “transplanted historical character” outline builds (FYI, will first start with Joan of Arc, and then later discuss Saladin, Talleyrand, and Bismarck in a future post).
#1: “Joan of Arc” build
a. Basic premise: Illiterate, but inspirational peasant girl soldier
(Not sure which is more faithful to Joan’s historical portrayal: 2 CHA/1 COM or 2 COM/1 CHA? I’m tentatively guessing 2 CHA, given Joan’s ability to inspire/rally armies, while later being posthumously elevated to sainthood.)
b. Backstory/in-game trait leanings: helot, devout (to the point of seeking to become Eclect), homelander/nationalist, compasionate
c. Might be BFF’s with “lieutenant Breden” (and will in fact, largely depend on Breden’s charisma if I adopt the 2 COM/1 CHA variation)
d. (against the advice of her sneakier/more tactically-minded allies) Is a huge fan of the “Leeroy Jenkins” frontal charge
e. Prefers low anarchy during the winter
f. Overall goal/vision: despite having originally been born a helot/backwater peasant, Joan sees herself as a divinely inspired kingmaker and prophet, destined to rally an underdog aristocratic faction (Armagnacs/Laconniers/Leaguers) to victory against foreign occupiers (England/Hegemony) and the occupier-friendly domestic rivals (Burgundians/Hegemony Loyalists).
g. Relationship goals (historical route): Joan stays an unmarried virgin all her life, purely devoting herself to her work.
h. Relationship goals (if deviating from history to take a creative liberty): If she were to become open to the idea of work-life balance, perhaps my Joan could see herself romancing Simon or Abelard, making the drastic social climb from helot to Shayard’s queen-consort in the process (while using her statuses as both Eclect (and successful rebel) to mitigate any anti-helot prejudices that are aimed at her).
i. Joan’s attitude towards the post-Hegemony world that she’s helped shape:
Amongst her closest friends/allies, I can see “historically accurate Joan” privately admitting to feeling lost, confused, and slightly aimless after having achieved her initial kingmaker goal (while alternatively, “married Joan” instead feels overwhelmed by her new responsibilities as queen-consort, wife, and mother, thus occasionally yearning for reliving the “simpler glory days of fighting for King, country, and Cthonos”).
And given her low INT, I imagine that “Queen Joan” will become very dependent on allied advisors and courtiers just to barely survive in the Laconniers’ day-to-day politicking. (or worse case scenario, if she can’t make/maintain friends at court, then Joan ends up being treated as “a previously useful blunt instrument who’s now a washed-up has-been”, thus gradually marginalized/pushed out of royal politics, eventually to the extent of being “Kicked Upstairs” or “Reassigned to Antarctica”).
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Abelard won’t ever date, let alone marry, somebody with helot origins.
Unless the author changed the ro’s around…again. 
I feel, in general, that your Joan story might work better if the mc could be one of the more impoverished, but technically free yeoman of the Rim, instead of a slave.
Non-radicals won’t really free the helots, the economy depends too much on both their blood and involuntary labour.
Best they might manage is either sefdom with only theoretical “rights” or if they are very, very progressive some form of sharecropping with debt bondage. But that latter, in particular, would require blood to become much less central to the economy and the switch to a fully monetary economy where a person’s economic value is measured purely in money and not blood or aether.
Right now helots are forbidden from even handling money it seems.
Now we know Havenstone deliberately limited the mc’s background to the two extremes of the fictional society, nobles (even if impoverished) and slaves, More character archetypes would naturally have been possible if the mc had been allowed to have a yeoman, urban poor or merchant class/caste background.
As it is we will probably see those reflected in other rebellions and factions that the mc cannot (directly) lead themselves. Cabel, for example, seems to represent a Shayardene homelander yeoman faction and I’m sure at some point we will see some factions with merchant class origins popping up too.
Now, that said, If I really were determined to turn a helot into a “noble” on their “merits” and not by some bullshit “divine right” or “sacred bloodline”, the best avenue would be to go cosmopolitan and exploit and expand being made a Wiendish clan leader for all it is worth.
Still that is not quite a king or emperor on its own, but with some deft management and luck it may be possible to parley clan leadership into becoming the high king of Wiendrj.
As, like @P_Tigras said, you may well need to kill half the nobles/clan leadership for them to accept the mc and their new clan as legitimate and that leaves a lot of room to make sure that the new clans or the new clan leadership that will replace them start out as your loyalists, who can then elect the mc, former helot or no, high King.
To rise further from that point a cosmopolitan mc would need to play Horion, or at least the leaguers in Shayard and probably some other factions in the other provinces like a fiddle, subvert some of their assumptions and then divide and conquer.
The easiest way to do this would be to both go along with the idea of a Koinon but also transform it a bit from Horion’s vision, particularly when it comes to Shayardene leadership. This would almost certainly require a much weaker Shayard than what Horion is banking on. Which means the mc would need to exploit the cultural divisions in his (former) homeland for all that they are worth to split what is now Shayard into at least three pieces and have its northern, anglo-saxon, southern, french-esque and the Reach separate into their own states.
Along with, again, some luck and deft politicking that would open up the possibility to make the Koinon more like the Holy Roman empire, only without the holy and the roman, and introduce an elective emperorship that is not tied to Shayard but, theoretically, open to all member heads of state.
From there the mc, as a high-king should be able to engineer the first election in a way that allows them as the original rebel, who started everything to become the nominal “emperor” of the Koinon.
That is practically the only way I can see to turn a former Shayardene helot into an emperor on their own merits and without needing to forge a bloodline or lean heavily into bullshit divine right doctrines.
Now, compared to my more traditional, Mao-escque vision for my helot mc I do not think the compromises necessary to make such a route a success would be worth it as the necessity to play nice with at least some of the noble factions would greatly limit what reforms you can do and would probably end in half-measures such as the aforementioned replacing the helotry with serfs or at the very best sharecroppers.
While the mc shouldn’t have to repudiate their helot origins in this path there would still be an unfortunate necessity to adopt some more disturbing “noble” mannerisms, clothing and decadence disguised as “honour”. 
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Silly me, it appears that I’ve already forgotten @Havenstone previously telling me “Not if there was the least hint that they had once been a helot.” (in response to my question about a helot’s prospects of joining the nouveau riche); good catch there, @idonotlikeusernames !
But now, another consideration come to mind.
Per the upcoming romance options that @Havenstone previously listed, Abelard’s description reads “Abelard, young Laconnier noble in Grand Shayard. Man, bisexual.” Nowhere does that description (yet) explicitly read that Abelard’s only romantically interested in aristo MC’s. So perhaps even though Abelard’s Game 2 starting attitude may indeed be prejudiced against helots, perhaps a helot MC of sufficiently high CHA (2, 3, or more) might be persuasive enough to get Abelard to reconsider?
(similar to how it was previously stated that a nationalist MC could still possibly romance (cosmopolitan/Leaguer) Teren, but would have an uphill battle doing so)
You make a very stellar point, but alas, we work with the (few available) gameplay choices that we do have, not the ones we wish could have happened instead.
#1: Anyways, as for my “Joan of Arc” build’s remaining bullet points of speculation…
j. (Overlapping with my earlier admission of Joan’s ineptitude at playing politics) True to her historical counterpart, Joan will probably get bogged down in a sham trial for heresy at the beginning of G5 (while Sarcifer and/or other antagonists take advantage of Joan’s predicament to kickstart G5’s main conflict).
k. (If taking another “what if” creative liberty with history) Perhaps Joan, if provided the right opportunities/resources/allies, might eventually gain the ability to survive being burned at the stake? (similar to how Daenerys Targaryen is consistently able to walk in and out of fire unscathed)
I suddenly remember @Havenstone previously telling us how “Dead is (with very few Game 5 exceptions) dead,” so perhaps a hypothetical “walking through fire” G5 miracle might qualify as one of those exceptions?
#2: “Saladin” build
a. Basic premise: a scholarly general/shrewd politician famed for his kindness, generosity, piety, religious tolerance, patronage towards literature/chivalry, and for miraculously winning one iconic battle against invaders of a foreign religion
(Pretty sure Saladin would start out as a 2 INT, but I’m unsure if he would be a 1 CHA or 1 COM)
b. Backstory/in-game trait leanings: aristo, devout (time to be Eclect again!), cosmopolitan, and outwardly compassionate most of the time (albeit with occasional lapses into ruthlessness if pushed far enough).
And whether or not Saladin’s compassionate gestures are born out of genuine altruism, a calculated desire to achieve political goals, or a mix of both should be left to the player’s discretion/imagination.
c. Is outwardly super merciful/chill towards Breden (though there might be some underlying “keep your friends close and enemies closer”/“double agent mind games” motive on Saladin’s part, if he doesn’t actually trust Breden)
d. Though capable of waging wars, Saladin would prefer to avoid battle whenever possible (forming amicable relationships with some of the Hegemony’s more sympathetic/less atrocious members, while settling matters with truces, treaties, and payment exchanges).
e. Prefers low anarchy during the winter
f. Overall goal/vision: Would like to reclaim a “Holy Land”/Jerusalem-XoR counterpart in the foreseeable future. Also, Saladin’s friendly gestures often have underlying pragmatic motives; and in general, he has grand ambitions of building his own dynasty/empire at the expense of the current dynasty he’s allegedly serving, aka Fatimid Caliphate/Laconniers)
g. The realities of Saladin’s limits/failures (underneath the “legendary general” image that his PR department propped up for him): Is actually “not that gifted as an army commander, since his military tactics often failed and he was not always capable of controlling his troops.” Also, because of his generosity and lavish spending, Saladin has money management issues that will cause headaches for his administration.
(so maybe by the beginning of G5, Saladin will have to confront a very upset Syntechnia, who is strongly considering the option of denying his latest request for a loan)
h. Relationship goals (historical route):
Would like to acquire his own harem of wives and concubines, with his most favorite wife standing tall amongst the pile (which probably won’t include G1 love interests, judging from a previous reply I got from @Havenstone). Might M’kyar, Teren, and/or Elery prove amenable (or at least tolerant) to this sort of arrangement?
i. Relationship goals (if a creative liberty is taken):
Instead of actually pursuing a harem of his own, a monogamous Saladin merely teases (or is teased by) his G2 (or beyond) love interest about the subject (in the context of a “path not taken” inside joke during a session of playful banter).
j. Saladin’s attitude towards the post-Hegemony world that he’s helped shape:
Is very proud of his dynastic achievements, though at the same time, he may privately feel remorse towards taking advantage of Abelard’s “totally from natural causes/illness” death to co-opt/replace the Laconniers. He also may feel that his days are numbered, if his historical typhoid-ish condition (“weak, restless, loss of appetite”) catches up with him in his later adult years.
k. Other notable examples of Saladin’s “cunning mercy”:
1- Send a doctor to provide “peaches, pears, and ice” (or equivalent XoR medical treatment/gifts) to your fever-stricken opposing faction leader (thus creating good PR while also creating a pretense for your messengers to scout the enemy camp and then report on the enemy’s army size/condition)
2- By sparing members of your opposing faction’s religion (e.g. allowing them to still visit holy sites freely, while requiring other members to pay fees for their entry), you avoid making martyrs out of them.
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Horion and Teren however were specifically billed as “open minded” or even more than simply open minded by our dear author. No such thing was ever said for Abelard who seems much closer to the typical “noble” standards of Shayard. So it would make sense if Abelard is much more set in his ways including their prejudices.
It is also noteworthy that even the notoriously open-minded Horion has obvious trouble with a helot mc who actually proves themselves to think way outside the box and possibly be smarter than he is.
Note that exploiting Wiendish clan leader for cosmopolitan (former) helot mc’s is a potential path, or loophole, where you don’t need to deny your helot origins, after all the mc’s Wiendish followers made them clan leader while being well-aware of cosmo mc’s Shayardene helot origins, or forge a pretend bloodline that causes an virtually unlimited number of rival claimants due to Shayardene helot “families” being, as a rule, incredibly huge due to the whole breeding stock thing.
Although if you’re going to use your potential new Wiendish clan to go full “noble” on your own merits you probably need to “evolve” to play some of their games and adopt some of their mannerisms, including that decadence disguised as honour thing.
For the Xthonic religion that would be the “Reach” region of what is currently Shayard, bordering Karagond itself. If you’re going to found your own religion/cult the holy land would be whereever you claim your imaginary friends say it is.
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I don’t have a Court of Miracles planned, no. 
You’ll see when we get to the capital who the drudge leaders are.
Mao comes up frequently on the forum because he’s one of the more successful* examples of someone who picked the “transform EVERYTHING” option as a revolutionary.
*For certain definitions of success that focus more on establishing a long-lasting regime and razing lots of old institutions rather than on, say, not killing tens of millions of the people you’re ostensibly trying to liberate.
Of the four other historical figures you mention, Jeanne d’Arc was the only real rebel, so we’re somewhat more likely to see paths that evoke her story than straight-up generals, diplomats, Iron Chancellors, etc. (But you’re not going to gain the ability to survive being burned at the stake, or Slow-Harrowed, the gameworld’s equivalent.)
I’m not at present planning any harems or poly relationships. We’ll see as I write if it seems feasible for any of the characters as they develop.
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Other rebels, especially for fighting pseudo Byzantines, would be the leaders of the various Bulgarian rebellions (especially the Aden’s and Ivalyo the Cabbage, to cover both nobles and peasants) who built a Bulgaria very much in the image of Byzantium without being Byzantium.
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Like the 19th Century UK.
The Helots would be free because they are part of the great nation of Shayard. Blood sacrifice would be banned in Shayard.
The nobles would still keep their powers.
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As usual, your rebuttal is solid; dang, I really was comparing apples with oranges!
Anyways, thanks for helping me narrow Joan’s romantic options down to just Simon; it’ll be nice for Joan to have a sweet/sappy husband who shares her piety (towards Cthonos) and fascination (with the ideas of glorious chivalry and “ruling with kindness/respect”).
Heh. I guess old habits (and old prejudices) do die hard, don’t they? Then I look forward to the (maybe G5?) day that Joan can playfully (and smugly) tease Horion for not having any faith in her faction’s ability to pull off miracles (despite Joan being dumb as a bag of rocks).
Very good point! And on a different personal note, I imagine I might style my version of the “Wiendish clan leader ex-helot MC” archetype as either a “High Chieftain” (to symbolize my MC embracing the “Going Native” trope) or as a “rags-to-riches immigrant tycoon/energy entrepreneur” (pushing to create a future in which Wiendish waterpower (and other mundane resources/tools/schemes) completely supplants/overshadows Theurgy).
Well then, it’s a good thing that Joan’s got Simon in her corner!
When it comes to courtly etiquette/games, he has plenty of experience to share with Joan, right?
(or did his many childhood swordsmanship lessons come at the expense of leaving him sheltered/unaware of the realities of aristocratic intrigue, thus rendering my suggestion useless?)
As for Plan B (if Simon isn’t the ideal teacher), then perhaps Joan might instead reach out to Teren and (miraculously survived G1 by faking death) Horion for guidance?
Reach, huh? Well then, I look forward to having Joan make all sorts of reach-related puns and inside jokes in her future advertising/evangelizing campaign!
(and PS, on another note, to this very day, I still enjoy/giggle at Garrus’ “I had reach, but she had flexibility” meme in the Mass Effect trilogy)
How dare you call Mr. Bigglesworth ‘imaginary!’ 
Now please, apologize and bow down to the might of…
THE ARCHLICH OF NAXXRAMAS,
ESTEEMED LICH LORD OF THE PLAGUELANDS,
COMMANDER OF THE DREAD NECROPOLIS,
MASTER AND FOUNDER OF THE CULT OF THE DAMNED,
FORMERLY OF THE COUNCIL OF THE SIX,
CREATOR OF THE ABOMINATION,
CORRUPTER OF THE SUNWELL,
SUMMONER OF ARCHIMONDE THE DEFILER,
BETRAYER OF HUMANITY,
HEARTHSTONE ENTHUSIAST,
AND MAJORDOMO TO THE LICH KING HIMSELF, KEL’THUZAD!!!
Gotta say that I’m really enjoying your “it’s funny cause it’s true” macabre sense of humor! Have you ever considered becoming a comedian for a living?
Be that as it may, I’m having lots of fun provoking thoughtful (and entertaining) feedback on these historical analogy builds (regardless of their viability or lack thereof in the games’ final builds), so perhaps you could humor me for a bit longer?
#3: “Talleyrand, the Political Survivor” build
a. Basic premise: A skilled diplomat who is primarily loyal to his country and his own personal goal of achieving continent-wide peace/stability, rather than being loyal to specific people (and will thus easily bounce from one regime to the next, while also secretly conspiring to betray any ally that he views as a megalomaniac and/or warmonger)
(He’s definitely a COM 0, but I’m unsure if Talleyrand’s remaining initial stats would measure as 2 CHA/1 INT or 2 INT/1 CHA)
b. Backstory/in-game trait leanings: aristo, formerly devout/later excommunicated, homelander/nationalist, and compassionate (if you don’t view his actions too cynically)
c. In my opinion, Breden would easily qualify as a “Fouche”-inspired frenemy (commoner who rises up to be a legendary spymaster) for the likes of Talleyrand (who sees value in working with Fouche/Breden, but also sees her a rival who needs to be watched/kept in check)
d. Prefers low anarchy during the winter
e. Overall goal/vision: Rather than greedily over-extend Shayard (through pointless wars of conquest/raiding), Talleyrand would prefer to mediate (and then maintain) a peaceful balance of power amongst all of XoR’s factions (thus, naturally gravitating towards Horion and Teren’s “Leaguer/koinon” agenda).
f. Talleyrand’s “(tentative) list of XoR allies to betray/undermine/sell out/scapegoat”: Radmar, Kala, Abelard, Erjan, Calea, Hector, Sarcifer, Phaedra
g. Relationship goals (historical route): Total womanizer who’s reluctant to settle down, though he could see himself marrying Teren for political reasons (whether it not it evolves to a match of true love will be up for debate/speculation).
h. Talleyrand’s attitude towards the post-Hegemony world that he’s helped shape:
Hosts banquets and plays card games with guests in his retirement years, and will occasionally suffer bouts of depression (caused by concern over his own legacy). Will also rediscover religion and seek to reconcile with the church of Xthonos in his last days/hours.
So in other words, acting as the First Order (or Imperial Remnant) to the Galactic Empire/Byzantium? Interesting!
What is the extent of this Theurgy ban? Are all uses of Theurgy prohibited, or is there leeway for “self-sacrifice Theurgy”? (instead only punishing forced Harrowings)
And are they self-regulated, or would an independent agency audit them?
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So, that’s somewhat odd question.
How differently some situations in Game 1 would be solved if your MC had stats of the third degree(so COM 3, CHA 3, INT 3)?
Would he be able to , for example, convince Hector hunters to surrender? Go toe-toe with theurge in Chapter 4 using their own theurgy? Or would such MC be able to get through Hector plot armor during ambush with his combat skill?
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Oh, by all means. I just don’t want to set any false expectations that I’ll be able to do justice to all the possibilities you’re riffing on. I’m perfectly happy for you to keep riffing, though.
That is a terrific question. Because a stat score of 3 isn’t the top end of the spectrum, I think many of the differences would be incremental rather than huge qualitative differences – killing more people more easily in battle as a COM 3, for example, or talking rather more people from the tougher-to-convince social categories (priests, nobles, merchants) into supporting you as a CHA 3.
Plot armor is by nature not amenable to skill checks, so no, Hector would still be with us regardless. But an INT 3 character would fare much better against the Theurges in Ch 4, and a COM 3 would find it easier to send the Archon’s army packing.
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I think I read on here somewhere that a 1st circle Theurge would have INT3. Is that right?
Is Cerlotta like an INT 5 being that she’s 3rd circle?
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